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Moving kits around this morning, a trip to the attic, the P-8 that Bob Cox returned to me was staring me in the face. He started stripping it, fixing dents in the wing, then I believe he acquired a large 50 cc gasser. I got the P-8 back, thanks Bob. Just finished the P-6, was looking to pull the AA P-7 down, start on it while working on the Yak. This P-8 is like your favorite old dog, don't want to get rid of it. I'll put it on one table in the shop, get on it, as it is in excellent condition for a well used bird, solid, just needs serious TLC. Stay tuned. Crank
< Message edited by crankpin -- 8/12/2012 8:47 PM >
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I have always thought that the 8 was the best looking of the series. I had a 5 several years ago and it flew great, my dad had an 8 when they were 'modern' and I loved that plane. Coincidentally, a bad battery killed them both, only 20 years apart.
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Hi Vince, For a second there I thought your friend was contemplating installing a 50 cc gasser in the P-8! With all of these requests on the boards about engines other than 61's, I get confused. Looks cool, you're just the man for the resto. Chris...
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I have another P-6 here, there is a story to it. May get on that one also. See if I can find a picture of it, I did fly it a few times, now it is hanging on the wall in shop, needs little TLC too. This P-8 can be made into a nice ship, and it is light, very light, straight and strong. Crank
< Message edited by crankpin -- 8/11/2012 10:53 AM >
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Getting a good look where someone started this re-build. Looks like Bondo at the stab to fuse area. They started sanding it off, then gave up. I do not think that Bob C. woud use this stuff, almost hard as a rock. I am going to work on it, maybe best to chisel it out, but not that much weight there, I am going to sand it down to skin on stab, top and bottom where needed, then feather it with finishiing resin/micro-balloons. Glass cloth top and bottom, plus the elevator's and rudder. The elevators are built up, straight. No fuel soaked problems, here or on the wing. Picture also of the engine area, a removable mount used here. I originally got this P-8 from a club member, Sundancer's, PSL, FL. He was a contest flyer back in the day, so this bird was flying in the 70's, or when it was kitted. Wing MK will have to be stripped, no evidence of splits or cracks, CS is glassed, three bolt set up. You can see the wooden dowel poking thru, and the hole in pan, for the pipe holder. I am going to leave it, ailerons, servo center wing. Lot of work to the wing, it will be glassed also. You may think that it would be better to just start a new kit. Not so for me, this puts me eon's ahead of new wing, stab build, set-up etc. Bolting the wing on, run the tape from wing tips, spot, to fin, stab, etc., all measures up, even both sides. Crank
< Message edited by crankpin -- 8/12/2012 8:45 PM >
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OK, I'm hooked. Get some filler on where sanding off at stab and fuse. Starting on the wing, heat gun, MK to come off. Not bad, LE has two layers, nothing showing as far as damage in that area. Some of the MK adhesive left in patches, clean up with solvent. The ailerons are coming clean with a blade, they are glassed, so MK easy removal. You can see the #11 cutting into the TE. Just marking the covering, to pull right up with blade after heating. Going to need some work at the pan, looks like it had been re-attached after original build, get that off, clean up, get some saran wrap to wing saddle, set in, do it properly with glass and cloth, proper filler, etc. I would assume a serious pattern flyer flew this bird, ailerons were sealed with clear MK. Should get some time on this bird, goal right now, get to primer. I may have to do some work at the engine area, set up for glass mount. This bird will see primer and paint. Doing these re-builds, you have to see the finished product in your mind, generates enthusiasm. I let two P-8 kits go past few years, this will make up for it. Crank
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Score: 100 Joined: 12/14/2008 Last Login: 6/19/2013 From: Hueytown, AL, USA Status: offline
Hey Vin , I have a P-8 just like that and was wondering if the Foam wing could be in any danger when you use MK it to clean up the glue !! It that the one your buddy got last year @ the Perry trade show ???
Dave..
< Message edited by dphill2 -- 8/13/2012 11:28 PM >
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Back to it. I took out as much of the bondo, or whatever it was, that I could, it was not holding anything together as far as structure goes. Sanded as much as I could, to get inferior product out, and get stab to even plane. Mixed up some micro-balloons and finishing resin, set it in, let cure, top and bottom. Set for 7 hours, dry. Using medium rasp, sanding block, with medium paper, and other blocks finer finish sand. It is now ready for glass cloth. I have to go get some Zap finishing resin. I am sure anyone has their favorite, and I have always had the best luck with Zap. What I used today, a generic brand from the LHS, just doesn't pass the smell test. That means, feel right. Now, looking at this bird, I am in the same shape, as if I would have built a new one, and eon's ahead of time. Picture of the wing here, more work on it, I will have to section in a 1/16"X1/4" hardwood piece on the TE of the ailerons. They are beat up a little. I could just cut a sliver off the end edge, but need the same width as built originally for fairing into the fuselage, to fit. This will sit till I get the finishing resin, have some stuff to get done around the ranch, back to this, maybe next week. Crank
< Message edited by crankpin -- 8/18/2012 10:39 PM >
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You will love flying it Vince. It looks like you had a solid build to work with. I had the privilege of flying this one shortly before we lost our field. -Robert
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Robert - Thanks for the picture. I have been looking at his P-8, and was going to paint the 6 just finished like it. may get close on it to copy. I gave up three NIB P-8's, now time to work on this one. As you said, having a lot to work with, I would not have started this project, if from scratch. The wing is going to take more work then the fuse. Thats his ride in the background. Vince
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Outside projects stopped by rain, thought I would get on this wing. Cleaning up with acetone, especially the painted areas. Wingtips have heavy paint, dunno why, they look as original build. Decided to cut the ailerons off, 4 hinges each side, the DuBro flats. Not pinned and in solid, an XActo razor saw did it quick. Have to block and sand the TE, use a little filler, it will look like new when finished. There is some fuel soaking on one aileron, and to the center of the wing rear. Pull that out best I can, with some acetone soak, then sit in the sun for an hour. It is not bad, only where the pipe exited on one side. I may make new ailerons here, stay with the single servo. The other P-6's, I used dual aileron servos. In the old days, we used single servos like this, and the servos did not have half the torque of a JR DS821.
The tips here are sandwich balsa, with the 1/16" ply in the middle. The advantage of this ply, is when carving the balsa, it is a perfect template for the tip, and some dent saving when you hit the tips. Usually you get more dings and dents from hangar rash, then at the field. This is a start on the wing, as my previous post, I will get on this again when I get the Zap finishing resin. Right now, get this wing cleaned up, take the sanding block to it, till I get some balsa dust. Pictures included of the wing tip templates. Crank
< Message edited by crankpin -- 8/19/2012 11:57 AM >
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Taking the paint off, thick primer here also. I am just thinking, would the flyer just sprayed paint on a tip, for weight ? Micro-Balloons & finishing resin, applied after good cleaning with acetone. Tips sanded first, brought down to wood. Heavy paper here, then the mud. After dry, sand to straight and level. You can put a piece of wood or metal on to assure flat. The TE is 3/8", and the ailerons needed some serious help. Looking at my stock of wood, no aileron stock. I will get 3/8" aileron stock, cut the LE off, then epoxy on 3/8" triangle stock, either balsa or hardwood pieces. Reason here, I have to cut down the width of the stock, then balsa strips top and bottom behind the new triangle stock attached, then sand to straight, perfect piece. Resin and glass cloth them when the wing is done. Guys that are good with the plane, sanding block, can make a LE perfect without all this stock attaching, etc. One shot of the wing panel on one side, you can see some of the sanding. The red residue is the MK adhesive that is left after removal. I am filling a little where the skins have separated, nothing to affect the straightness of the wing. You can't see it now, but this is a nice wing. After all this cosmetic work, set on pan, bolt to fuse, measure all again, wing tips to fin, then to stab points, it has been done once, will do again. Goal right now, put the whole airframe back to new condition, with a few improvements, then primer, finish to ready for color. As posted, two colors here, base white and something else, with a red/black stripe separating down the middle. Crank
< Message edited by crankpin -- 8/21/2012 10:37 AM >
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The ranch is shaped up for the coming Fall season, great painting weather, spend more time outside, and at the field. It gets hot here, but being close to the beach, we do get some nice winds cooling things off. I have been out of the shop for some time, lot of things to catch up on. Will get to the Yak about 30 days. Can't get away from these old birds. Is this faster then starting from scratch? Yes, and yes again, as long as it is a solid piece.
More time in the shop, we just went thru a week of monsoon from Isaac. Couple pictures, ready to glass the wing, top and bottom, I took all the paint and primer off the tips, had to section in hardwood at the tip TE's, little mud. They are finished, just little sanding to do, then glass everything, after the pan is adjusted to its new home. I have re-measured all surfaces again, tips to tips, inside and outside. I did find three 6-penny finishing nails in one tip. See what happens when complete, hang from ceiling top of fin, loop around crank in front. There are other ways to do this, except I am not a pattern competitor at this time, and would probably not know the difference is the plane pulls to this, or pulls to that. Leave that to the experts. My builds do fly great.
Wing is stripped, not much to fill on the flat areas. There was some skin separation at the seams, but no warpage or dents. Now to set up the pan, bush the wing bolt placements. I use brass tubing, cut and epoxied in, where the wing bolts insert. This makes a non-crush zone. The original builder drilled dowels for this. I will section in 1/4" hardwood for the wing bolts. This setup has two bolts L&R rear, and a single at the front LE. I will leave the hardpoints in that hold a pipe bracket. You can get these from Dave Brown Products. Get the pan on, glass cloth and resin, clean up, primer, sand, sand, sand, primer, sand, sand, sand. Glass the stab and control surfaces. Do a pull pull.
Pictures from bottom up, also two pictures of last two Phoenix 6's, showing where this is going. The second P6, I modified the nose to fit a 2.25" spinner backplate to fuse form. Still thinking of two color only, dunno white on top or bottom half. Stay tuned, Crank
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Back at it, minimum time on this, few projects around ranch came up, should get more time here soon. Pictures here showing work on center section. 2 oz. glass cloth has been on here since the build. Taking off the adhesive that was holding the pan on, roughed the area up. Repair, filler then sanding. Top of wing is finished, now finishing the bottom. I had to re-align the rear wing bolt a little. The front single plate just dropped out when inserting the long nylon 1/4-20. It will be cleaned up, with the area on the fuse, for a clean re-install. Looks like the 30 or 40 year adhesive gave way. This was a good original build, and things get old and dryed up. I may add two dowels to the LE center, for align into the bulkhead. Not needed, but gives peace of mind. The one tip was chewed up some, looked like a dog got hold of it, sectioned in a piece of hardwood, epoxied, little filler, sand and like new, need squared up. Center section finished, does not look that great, but is smooth and solid. The pan has been re-fitted, will need a little mod at the front, and the rear will be closed up, where it meets the fuse. It will be epoxied to the center section with the wing bolted on. Between the bulkhead and rear of fuse where wing cradles, waxpaper or saranwrap will handle any spill over of epoxy/filler. Everything at this area will be even with the fuselage, just like coming out of a mold. 85% of the wing is ready for glass and cloth. I have to thank Klxmaster, Flywilly and a few othe guys on here, that taught me the paper towel method when glassing large areas. Been doing this for some time, and the paper towel method woke me up to a faster finish. Also the elevators and rudder will be glassed. Have to get to the LHS for new aileron stock, need 3/8" at the LE. The pieces I took off, were 1/32" less in thickness at the top and bottom of TE. The 3/8" LE of the ailerons will be perfect. Cleaning up the inside of the fuse is next, plus a new mount for the engine. This is not a wood beam engine mount, so a new DB will suffice. More later. Crank
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Hey David. My plan was to put together the Pilot Yak ARF sitting in one of the bedrooms. I brought this baby down from the attic, like an old dog, even though he is sick, just can't get rid of it. Now I am glad it is started. Carved the ailerons today, was debating to put dual aileron servos in, going to leave it like it is. Thanks for the good comments, can't wait to get it to primer, then figure out the paint job, and going to use the kiss method. Spring-Aires, OS61SF, Tettra tank, Kraft-Hayes wheels, DB pushrod on elevator, and pull-pull rudder. Vince
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Lot of rain here. Like they say in NC, Fulla-Flood. Yesterday worked on ailerons. Was going to buy new stock, went thru some of my balsa stash, found just what I needed. Two pieces aileron stock, 3/8"X1-1/2". I need 1-1/4". The ailerons on the original build, as far as I know, only 1/4" at the LE. Dunno about that, much thinner then the TE of the wing. My plan was to make them a shade over the TE thickness, lot of discussion about that. I did it on the last P-6, flys great. Now, they will be even with the TE of the wing. This construction may be new to some, old hat to others, and there are better methods then this. I have carved, (planed), down with 1/16" ply centers, other times used just plain stock. If you look at the pictures you can see the cap on the front, and the white filler. What I did here, took the 1.5" stock, cut the triangle LE 1/4" off. This left 1-1/4" TE. Then, cut another 1/4" off. Now this leaves 1". Epoxied the LE back on, which leaves a lip on one side. When securing the LE, in a home made quick jig on perfectly flat surface, the lip I am talking about, wil be at the back of the triangle LE. After dry, and all squared up, mix the micro balloons and epoxy or finishing resin, get out the old credit card or piece of ply, apply the mix to the aileron side with the lip. Pull smooth, make sure you have a dam of the mix coming at you, using the LE as a guide. If you are good at moving mud, you now have a perfect finish, that will dry to hard like consistency. After cures, sand smooth on flat surface. This method may seem out of place to the expert builders, but it is one way to work it, and have a perfectly smooth porcelain looking aileron. After some touch up, finish sanding, finishing resin and lite glass cloth to finish, then the primer. You can look down this aileron, TE or LE, and if you did it right on the smooth surface, straight as an arrow. I usually pin the hinges here, this will be Robart barrel hinges. Lot of explanation for a nice finish. Crank
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Hey Crank, This is how I convert single to double center section servos in my T2A. ( yes, it is finally done ). I have done this w/ a P-8 also. I like the ability to adjust each aileron individually. I also did this to my Deception. I will try to finish that this winter.
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Ed Peel AMA 2680 NECPO#58 Alliance Balsa Bees Inc #492
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Ed - Nice idea. Never thought of that. Gives you the same as dual aileron servos. I flipped a coin on this one, only had to bore a hole thru the wheel wells back side, then from the gear section to the center of wing. I may give that setup some thought on this bird, did the dual servos on others. Going to take a look at the wing tomorrow. Have you ever used the ailerons on these old birds, as spoilers? Landing with ailerons deflected up a little? Crank
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Crank, I did try it early on as a speed brake setup on the Futaba's. It didn't prove a whole lot of slowing it down, but did settle a little nicer on landings. I tried this set up on my Tiporare, Duelist and P-7, same thing. On the Kwik Fly, it made a big difference do the the bard door ailerons. I think w/ the strip ailerons and only 3/16" (3/8 total) of throw it doesn't get into the airstream much. I haven't ever tried extreme throws. I even tried them as flaps, same thing but only floated the landings on the Tiporare.
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Ed Peel AMA 2680 NECPO#58 Alliance Balsa Bees Inc #492
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Need to hinge the ailerons, first set up control horns. I am going to use the center servo, vs. the other method of separate servos. Ed has a nice system for individual adjustments, this is the old style. Brass tubing, 440 rods, measure so all will be straight to the servo arm. Two 90's, drill the aileron to accept the bent horn. The bearing will be epoxied into the wing TE, and I may solder a couple of tabs on the bearings to epoxy inside the TE. When using glues, etc., for adnering a smooth surface to anything, best to scratch the surface of the item, for better adhesion too the other side. Here I will have to V out the TE where these will sit. Setting in for trial install, you can see both sides. May have to do some grinding on the fuse at rear, not much. The original set up, the aileron horns were inside some plastic tubing. For differential, the horns will be slanted to the front, about 15 degrees. I'm sure this is the answer, any knowledgeable comments here are appreciated. The old pan has been modified a little, had to take some off after removing the old adhesive. The pan was open at the back, I am going to add a piece here, to conform with the fuse. It will be epoxied to the pan, this will all be set in place with the wing bolted on, and saran-wrap at the wing saddle area, just to prevent a little over run of epoxy. Using micro-balloons here with the mix. The wing bolt holes in the pan, will be fitted with 5/8" cardboard tubing, cut to form of pan. Everything is straight here, no mods to change wing to stab, rudder, etc. Original builder did a good job. Also, lining up, looking dead on straight from front, wing and stab, even steven. Next up, glass the ailerons, hinge them. Glass the wing, get it set up, clean up the fuse inside, glass the stab, elevators, and rudder. Anyone new at this, if you want a head start, I did two other P-6's on here, showing most of what I am doing now, but more info on raw build vs. this P-8. To most guys here, this is old hat.
Crank
< Message edited by crankpin -- 9/15/2012 5:32 PM >
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Got the new horns made, you can see the difference, altho I took the old picture off. Now a straight 4:40 rod to the servo arm. Look at the tip, with the clamp, the aileron end is sandwiched to the tip, on both wing tips, when setting the ailerons up. My concern is when the ends are even to the inside of the tips, look at the center area of the ailerons, looking dead on from the rear, should be even. Not one up and one straight, down, etc. This can settle the brain, thinking, is each of them even with the TE on a straight wing ? I built one of the original Midwest G-202's once, and decided to make a foam wing instead of the built up one. I sold it before any flying, etc. The guy that test flew it for the buyer, called me up, and said, hey, that darn thing flys great upside down, and it has some problems making a turn when upright. Sure 'nuff, I built the wing upside down . I did build the ribbed wing for it, then it flew great. Back to this. The hinges are lined up, and close to the tip outside, and close inside, about an inch from the aileron horn set-in. The hinge side that goes into the aileron, will be cut down, no use digging out balsa, and weakening the aileron. These will be pinned, probably using the tiny counter sunk screws, as in the last P-6. I usually used toothpicks, but this method is faster, and not sanding, etc. These large hinges may look out of place with this small plane, but give solid results. Added pictures one of the P-6's with the screw-pin method at the elevators, wing has the same. You can screw from the bottom, penetrate the hinge enough, it will pass any pull test. Add a little adhesive. Crank
< Message edited by crankpin -- 9/15/2012 6:13 PM >
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Setting up engine and NG retract. Little engineering job, using sprint airs, previous NG, Goldberg retracts. DB mount on the firewall, some drilling around it, and into it will be required. I may set this up for a while, nice cool weather is coming, going to be in the mid to high 70's, some low 80's, and no humidity for the next 5 or 6 months. No snow to shovel Crank
< Message edited by crankpin -- 10/10/2012 11:29 PM >
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Resurrect A Phoenix 8 - 
. I did build the ribbed wing for it, then it flew great.