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RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84 - 1/23/2013 5:02 PM   
BobH


 

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Status: offline 		I'm a bit confused. Why do you say that methanol flame propagation is slower than gas when I believe its actually faster? Gas has more BTU's than Meth but doesn't combine with O2 as rapidly. Its that faster "rapid oxidation, aka burn" that gives Meth the advantage in power.

No doubt that Meth will produce more engergy. Reading an MIT thesis from 1976 promoted the advantages of converting Gas cars to Metho cars.

I suppose the question becomes a matter of choice. There will be those who prefer gas and those who don't. If the power is suffecient for their intended purpose then its fine either way they go.

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RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84 - 1/23/2013 5:43 PM   
SrTelemaster150



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ORIGINAL: BobH

I'm a bit confused. Why do you say that methanol flame propagation is slower than gas when I believe its actually faster? Gas has more BTU's than Meth but doesn't combine with O2 as rapidly. Its that faster ''rapid oxidation, aka burn'' that gives Meth the advantage in power.

No doubt that Meth will produce more engergy. Reading an MIT thesis from 1976 promoted the advantages of converting Gas cars to Metho cars.

I suppose the question becomes a matter of choice. There will be those who prefer gas and those who don't. If the power is suffecient for their intended purpose then its fine either way they go.



http://www.epa.gov/oms/consumer/08-fire.pdf

http://iqlearningsystems.com/ethanol/downloads/Racing%20Fuel%20Characteristics.pdf

The following is a cut & paste from a longer article about methanol.

Fire safety
Methanol is far more difficult to ignite than gasoline and burns about 60% slower. A methanol fire releases energy at around 20% of the rate of a gasoline fire, resulting in a much cooler flame. This results in a much less dangerous fire that is easier to contain with proper protocols. Unlike gasoline, water is acceptable and even preferred as a fire suppressant, since this both cools the fire and rapidly dilutes the fuel below the concentration where it will maintain self-flammability. These facts mean that, as a vehicle fuel, methanol has great safety advantages over gasoline.[14] Ethanol shares many of these same advantages.

< Message edited by SrTelemaster150 -- 1/25/2013 2:04 AM >

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RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84 - 1/23/2013 6:29 PM   
SrTelemaster150



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ORIGINAL: BobH


No doubt that Meth will produce more engergy. Reading an MIT thesis from 1976 promoted the advantages of converting Gas cars to Metho cars.

I suppose the question becomes a matter of choice. There will be those who prefer gas and those who don't. If the power is suffecient for their intended purpose then its fine either way they go.


Yes it is a matter of choice. I am just trying to point out that, since many on this thread are expecting the FG84R5 to somehow be more powerful incarnation of the FA450R3, there might be some people that are dissapointed after they plunked down their hard earned money.

If you were not satisfied W/the power output of the FA450R3 don't buy the FG84R3 expecting it to have more power.

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RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84 - 1/23/2013 6:41 PM   
BobH


 

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Status: offline 		So in the end.. Meth is more powerful and more expensive. You need larger fuel tanks to fly the same amount of time. Not making a judgement here, just pointing the salient differences between the two.

My bud has a Saito 450 in his #36lb Wildcat. It flys the plane but yes it could use more power. Maybe he should consider CDI for the plane.. i know from experience that 200-300 rps with his plane can make a big difference.



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RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84 - 1/23/2013 7:26 PM   
SrTelemaster150



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ORIGINAL: BobH

So in the end.. Meth is more powerful and more expensive. You need larger fuel tanks to fly the same amount of time. Not making a judgement here, just pointing the salient differences between the two.

My bud has a Saito 450 in his #36lb Wildcat. It flys the plane but yes it could use more power. Maybe he should consider CDI for the plane.. i know from experience that 200-300 rps with his plane can make a big difference.



CDI will also give him 25% better fuel economy. If he drops the oil content & eliminates nitro, he will probably still get a power boost orm GI & further improve his fuel economy over nitro content fuel. Some say that getting rid of nitro W/CDI cuts operational fuel cost by 50%.

WOW, a 36# plane W/a 450R3? That is pushing the envelope. I always thought about 30# woild be about max.

What was the WS?

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RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84 - 1/23/2013 8:37 PM   
BobH


 

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Status: offline 		The span is 92 inches. Its a Jerry Bates Wild Cat. Heavy yes. Not a lot of room because of where the Landing Gear are, to put in a big fuel tank.

He really could use more power is my guess not to mention fuel economey. Power being the most important.

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RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84 - 1/24/2013 4:17 AM   
n8622t


 

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ORIGINAL: SrTelemaster150


quote:

ORIGINAL: n8622t


quote:

ORIGINAL: retransit

SrTelemaster150, let n8622t keep posting. The hole gets bigger and bigger.

Thanks for the facts and figures as opposed to his method of attack.

Bob

Now that I have you in here with me I won't be so lonely bob
Facts and figures are great too, if yer interested in glow/gas comparisons.... Sorry I'm only interested in this engine and to get as much info on it as possible... Not much out there yet unfortunately




WHAT?

Sorry I didn't realize you actually have one



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RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84 - 1/24/2013 3:25 PM   
SrTelemaster150



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ORIGINAL: n8622t


quote:

ORIGINAL: SrTelemaster150


quote:

ORIGINAL: n8622t


quote:

ORIGINAL: retransit

SrTelemaster150, let n8622t keep posting. The hole gets bigger and bigger.

Thanks for the facts and figures as opposed to his method of attack.

Bob

Now that I have you in here with me I won't be so lonely bob
Facts and figures are great too, if yer interested in glow/gas comparisons.... Sorry I'm only interested in this engine and to get as much info on it as possible... Not much out there yet unfortunately




WHAT?

Sorry I didn't realize you actually have one


AGIAN....... WHAT?

Are you off some sort of medication as your posta are becoming lmore & more bizarre.

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RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84 - 1/24/2013 7:12 PM   
kwik



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ORIGINAL: BobH
I suppose the question becomes a matter of choice. There will be those who prefer gas and those who don't.


Exactly! Me for one, I am not looking for a glow engine. I am looking for a gasoline engine.

And am therefore interested in the FG-84.

So, Telemaster, why not start a glow thread on the issue? Like; "Converting the 84 to Glow"? Or something in those lines?


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RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84 - 1/24/2013 9:24 PM   
SrTelemaster150



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quote:

ORIGINAL: BobH
I suppose the question becomes a matter of choice. There will be those who prefer gas and those who don't.


Exactly! Me for one, I am not looking for a glow engine. I am looking for a gasoline engine.

And am therefore interested in the FG-84.

So, Telemaster, why not start a glow thread on the issue? Like; ''Converting the 84 to Glow''? Or something in those lines?



1st of all quit calling a CDI fired engine a "Glow Engine" it can run on either gas/oil, methanol/oil, or glow fuel. Even a glow fuel carburetor can be modified to use gasoline, it's just easier/cheaper to switch to a $15 ZAMA. A better term would be "CDI/Methanol" engine. It is NOT a "glow engine", it has more in commoin W/a gas engine. Some might argue that I shouldn't post about my CDI/methanol engines on the "Glow Engine" forums.

I'm not critisizing you for wanting an FG84, just don't expect it to be a powerhouse as it will barely make FA450 power if indeed it does. None of Saitos other FG engines make the same HP as their similar displacememt FA conterparts. The average drop in power is 15%. Saito has started increasing the displacement on their recent gas versions. IE the FG57 & FG84 that are increased in displacement over the FA counterparts. 14% for the FG57, about 12% for the FG84. This will make up for most of the usual 15% drop in power when gas is utilized over glow fuel W/GI.

I wouldn't even consider converting the FG84 to methanol, & here's why. Most likely W/the 180 top end/150 bottom end geometry the CR would be way too low (less than 8:1) to take advantage of the methanol. It would not make the same HP as a CDI/methanol version of the FA450 @ the higher stock 450 CR.

But that does bring me to an interesting idea!

I have had a brainstorm raging in my head since last night & I need to hobble up to the hanger room to check it out.

A Saito FA300T is 4.5mm taller than an FA150 from the crank centerline to the top of the rockers. That means that the distance from the rod jounal C/L to the piston crown will be taller too, albeit maybe not the full 4.5mm if compression ratios for the 300T are lower than the 150.

Since the 300T has a different piston part# than the 150/450R3, (the 150 & 450R3 use the same piston) it would seem that some of the added distance is probably taken up by added "compression hieght" (the distance from the wrist pin C/L to the piston crown) I have an FA150 top end lying on the work bench & there's an FA300T under it. It wouldn't take me long to pop a jug off the 300T & compare compression hieght of the 300T piston W/the 150 piston.

Here's where it gets intereresting.

Hopefully most of the 4.5mm is taken up by a longer C-C distance on the conrod. If the compression hieght of the 300T piston is greater than that of a 150/450R3 piston in the neighborhood of 1mm to 2.5mm, the 300T piston could be used in a 450R3 to raise the compression ratio significantly. The 450R3 uses the same piston ring as the 300T so a 300T piston will fit the 450R3 bore.

Anyone getting interested now?

If I can use 300T pistons in a 450R3, with or without .020" cylinder base shims to raise CR to the 13:1 range like my FA180HC engine., I could significantly raise power output. Raising CR to this level would not be feasable W/pump gas as the octane rating would be too low. Methanol has a comparative octane rating of 114 as far as resistance to detonation.

Converting a high compression FA450R3 to CDI W/induction improvemnt like an 11mm FA180 carburator, (the 450 carb is 9mm) would lead to a significant HP increase. In the FA180, going from the 2.81HP GI version to the CDI high compression version W/the 12mm Big Bore 220 carb that produced 3.45HP on the same 15% Cool Power fuel, resulted in a 23% HP boost while using 20% less fuel.

If the modified 450R3 responded W/a like 23% power boost, that would be 6.8HP. Furthermore, tipping the can W/some 30% nitro/8% oil boosted the high compression BBC version of the 180 another 14% to 4HP & still got better fuel economy than the standard GI FA180. A like increase for the modified 450R3 running 30% nitro would be in the 8HP range.

Dropping back to a straight methanol/8% lube mix would probably not loose much over the 15%/17% nitro/oil mix of the Cool Power but let's just back it off a little to say 6.5HP. Tests done by others W/CDI conversions have seen fuel consumption drop by 50% when straight methanol was used compared to nitro mixes W/GI.

Now I would have a 450R3 methanol engine that would make 6.5 HP W/about double the fuel range (1/2 the operating costs) of a standard FA450 on GI.

If I want to show off, I can tip the bottle to 30% nitro, open up the HSN a bit & make 14% more HP W/45# of static thrust. A 26# warbird W/45# of thrust on hand would be a lot of fun when you want to go vertical.

For me, it's all about the engines & getting the most power out of the smallest/lightest powerplant that is still dependable & easy to live with.

There's a reason that the big boys in drag racing use methanol fuel.

Best of luck W/your FG84. If Saito has ironed out the ignition & carburetor problems that they had in the past, I'm sure you will be very happy with it as long as you aren't expecting a big power increase over an FA450.

< Message edited by SrTelemaster150 -- 1/24/2013 9:56 PM >

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RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84 - 1/24/2013 10:32 PM   
Old Fart


 

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ORIGINAL: BobH

So in the end.. Meth is more powerful and more expensive. You need larger fuel tanks to fly the same amount of time. Not making a judgement here, just pointing the salient differences between the two.

My bud has a Saito 450 in his #36lb Wildcat. It flys the plane but yes it could use more power. Maybe he should consider CDI for the plane.. i know from experience that 200-300 rps with his plane can make a big difference.



Perhaps your bud would be interested in an exchange engine from sr telemaster??

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RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84 - 1/24/2013 10:51 PM   
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Status: offline 		My Saito 450 3cyl is of the dual plug variety.  Maybe I could get a 2 fer deal.  I'd not really like to plug the glow plug holes  since I paid dearly for three extra glow plugs.

Old Fart, I'd hope you got those fires under contol.

Ray W

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RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84 - 1/24/2013 11:16 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BobH

So in the end.. Meth is more powerful and more expensive. You need larger fuel tanks to fly the same amount of time. Not making a judgement here, just pointing the salient differences between the two.

My bud has a Saito 450 in his #36lb Wildcat. It flys the plane but yes it could use more power. Maybe he should consider CDI for the plane.. i know from experience that 200-300 rps with his plane can make a big difference.



Perhaps your bud would be interested in an exchange engine from sr telemaster??


Yeah, I'll bet I could "tune her up" a little W/O a lot of $$$$ outlay.

$300 for a CDI
$40 for 3 spark plugs
$20 for a battery pack/switch

AND if the 300 pistons work to get CR in to 13:1 or higher range:

$120 for 3 FA300T pistons/rings
$115 for the 12mm Big Bore Carb

Less than $600 in part/components to increase HP by 45% (using 30%/8% fuel) W/better fuel economy. Then there's the option of 100% improvement on fuel economy running on straight methanol/8% lube W/a 20% in HP. Get the methanol in bulk for 1/2 the price of gasoline. (if you live where you can do that)

....and 46# of thrust oughta tank that 36# tub around pretty smartly.

I have to spend an hour to clean of the bench & pull a piston from that 300T to see what the compresion hieght is. I've got the 150 parts I need on the workbench. They're "left overs" from my FA180HC CDI project.
That's the old 150 top end that I replaced on the left, the 180 jug that took it's place on the right.



BTW: The wrist pins are common to all 3 engines so that only leaces the compression hieght as the last piece of the puzzle.














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RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84 - 1/24/2013 11:40 PM   
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Status: offline 		Hmm interesting concepts. For sure if you can get a LOT more HP from the engine it should be worth it. You would be saving fuel and gaining HP. The only questional part would be the journal on the crank and the Crod duralability. Meaning if they could with stand the additional power. I suspect they could, just musing here. The other issue could be the cam and the duration and size of the valves.
Just some thoughts here.

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RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84 - 1/25/2013 1:05 AM   
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Hmm interesting concepts. For sure if you can get a LOT more HP from the engine it should be worth it. You would be saving fuel and gaining HP. The only questional part would be the journal on the crank and the Crod duralability. Meaning if they could with stand the additional power. I suspect they could, just musing here. The other issue could be the cam and the duration and size of the valves.
Just some thoughts here.



OK 1st of all, if you fly the modified engine @ the same power output of the stock FA450R3, it will in all likelyhood under less stress than the stock engine.

The CDI is free power, it's better than free as it also saves you money. It can save you a LOT if you can mix your own methanol/oil mix @ 10:1 or so.

The power is also a more dependable, less volitile power as the ignition timing will never change W/ambient temperature, nitro content, A/F mixture, etc.

The CDI makes more power by precisely timing the spark event & burning the fuel more effecienty.

THIS IS A NO BRAINER! Anyone that runs & intends to continue running a large displacement 4s should convert to CDI. There's just no arguable reason not to & many reasons that you should.

So, let's say my high compression idea pans out.
Higher compression, as long as you stay within certain parameters, is also better than free because it will be more fuel effecient @ low to moderate throttle settings. It will use slightly more fuel @ WOT because it will be (effeciently) pulling more air & with it more fuel through the engine.

Now, you are making more power because 1) the piston is expelling more of the spent exhuast simply because the piston is leaving less cc of unocupied space in the combustion chamber (CC) 2) as the piston starts it's downstroke & is pulling on less unocupied space in the CC, therefore it will start inducting air sooner 3) as the intake charge is being compressed on the upstroke it is squeezed in to a smaller unocupied space. The higher CC pressure will increase the force that the expanding gases exert downward. That's translated to more toque @ the prop shaft.

You will not be attempting to increase the operating RPM range as you would W/cams & significant induction modification. So far you have only Made the engine more effecient W/the air & fuel that it cycles through it. If you prop the engine for the higher TQ it will run as long as the stock engine even @ WOT.

NOW, If you want to go a step further: Adding a bigger carb is not one of the freebes, it will only produce more power by allowing more air/fuel to go through the engine.

The FA180HC CDI engine really woke up when the 12mm big bore caruretor was instaled on a ported intake manifold. To make the ported manifold I took an old 150 manifold & bored the updraft section to the 12mm bore of the carb. I then drilled the horizontal section out to the larger 180 EX port diameter. The trasition from the 12mm section & the smaller section was blended smooth for maximum airflow through the 90° bend. The engine gained 400 RPM jumping to 8450 RPM W/an 18x8 Dynathrust prop.

The stock FS450R3 has a 9mm carburetor. This is sized for the 150 based bore as only 1 cylinder @ a time is pulling on the intake & @ low RPM there is more time between the intake pulses. The carb is sized to make the GI engine more well behaved @ lower RPM levels. It also restrains the engine @ WOT, high load, high RPM operation. The enhance breathing of the higher CR will allow the engine to oerate @ a low rpm level W/a slightly larger carb.

The good news is, there are 3 larger carburetors to work with to tune the modified engine for maximum all around performance..

The 450R3 carb is 9mm bore. All of the big block Saito singes use larger carbs.

FA150 uses a 10mm carb
FA180/220 use an 11mm carb
FA220 has an optional 12mm big bore carb

So anyway, we have increased the power by 25% & decreased our fuel usage by 50% by doubling our fuel economy. We have brought the power level up to point where the engine can still be run @ WOT for a good percentage of the time W/O reducing engine life.

Well, W/a methanol engine you can significantly bost power by tipping the old nitro bootle a little. When I bolted the BB carb to the 180HC CDI it was impressive, a 400 RPM boost. When I upped the nitro to 30%? Holy Mother of God! Did that sucker beller nice. When you get above 8400 RPM swinging an 18x8 prop, adding another 400 RPM takes some serious snot! It did it though, 8850 RPM, thus detroying the myth that nitro doesn't boost HP W/CDI. Too be honest though, the reduced 8% oil content helped a lot. Oil doesn't make power & there's no need for 16% oil in a CDI methaniol 4s in a fixed wing aircraft.

Here cames the reality check. Now that we are hitting the nitro, we are paying for it. The nitro require a higher volume than methanol & if you ran the engine W/30%nitro 8%lube @ WOT for long periods, it would most likely reduce engeine life, perhaps significantly.

The nice thing about nitro, especially if you DON"T NEED IT, is that it is HP in a bottle. You can make as much as what pleases you or what the engine will take. The later scenerio is the not so nice thing about pusing an engine beyond its limits.






< Message edited by SrTelemaster150 -- 1/25/2013 2:03 AM >

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RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84 - 1/25/2013 2:17 AM   
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Status: offline 		If the check on the 300T pistons does show a compression hieght that will allow the modifications I have theorized on above, & I actually do this modification, I promise I will start another thread. I'll call it "High Compression FA450R CDI/Methanol Project:.

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RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84 - 1/25/2013 2:19 AM   
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ORIGINAL: Kinner

My Saito 450 3cyl is of the dual plug variety.  Maybe I could get a 2 fer deal.  I'd not really like to plug the glow plug holes  since I paid dearly for three extra glow plugs.

Old Fart, I'd hope you got those fires under contol.

Ray W


All 450R3s have dual plugs.

Plug the extra holes & sell the glow plugs.

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RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84 - 1/25/2013 2:40 AM   
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Status: offline 		I think it's time for an engine clinic for you two ....somewhere else lol


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RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84 - 1/25/2013 7:03 AM   
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ORIGINAL: BobH
I suppose the question becomes a matter of choice. There will be those who prefer gas and those who don't.


Exactly! Me for one, I am not looking for a glow engine. I am looking for a gasoline engine.


So do like I did. Buy a new Saito 450 in the US, ship it directly to www.ch-ignitions.com and have it converted to gas...

Half the price of a FG 84.......


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RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84 - 1/25/2013 4:00 PM   
SrTelemaster150



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quote:

ORIGINAL: affas


quote:

ORIGINAL: kwik

quote:

ORIGINAL: BobH
I suppose the question becomes a matter of choice. There will be those who prefer gas and those who don't.


Exactly! Me for one, I am not looking for a glow engine. I am looking for a gasoline engine.


So do like I did. Buy a new Saito 450 in the US, ship it directly to www.ch-ignitions.com and have it converted to gas...

Half the price of a FG 84.......



And, most likely more reliable too. Proven C&H synchrospark technology & dependable, cheap to replace ZAMA carburetor.

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RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84 - 1/25/2013 4:07 PM   
w8ye



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quote:

ORIGINAL: SrTelemaster150


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kinner

My Saito 450 3cyl is of the dual plug variety.  Maybe I could get a 2 fer deal.  I'd not really like to plug the glow plug holes  since I paid dearly for three extra glow plugs.

Old Fart, I'd hope you got those fires under contol.

Ray W


All 450R3s have dual plugs.

Plug the extra holes & sell the glow plugs.

Easier said than done. - Use old burned out glow plugs in the holes.



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RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84 - 1/25/2013 5:16 PM   
CH Ignitions


 

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From: West Palm Beach, FL, USA
Status: offline 		I have a 450 comming that I will make it on gas.
I did a CDI 450 and it runs sweet. easy start, idle 850-900 RPMs with a vess 24B  .
I in the process of making all necessary hardwere and some time in end of February to have it available.
I will let you know how and what results will be glow VS gas.

Thanks
Adrian


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RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84 - 1/25/2013 5:18 PM   
affas



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Status: offline 		Good to see you here Adrian. I think I will keep you busy with all my engines that need modifications

The 450 will be placed in my TF FW 190 or my SisT FW 190. The looser will have a 57FG ....


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RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84 - 1/25/2013 5:33 PM   
BobH


 

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Status: offline 		THe loser will be the SisT. The 450 wont fit in the cowl. I tried

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RE: New Saito 4 Cycle Gas Engine, 3 Cyl FG-84 - 1/25/2013 5:43 PM   
affas



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Status: offline 		Thanks BobH, then I know and do not need to use my time trying that.

I think the Fg 57 is quite a good choice anyway :-)

Just some small surgery on the TF then.


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