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Hen long, asiatam and taigen - 8/11/2012 7:29 PM   
girltankette


 

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Hi everyone,
This may be old news – have not seen any threads on the forum about this, so I figured I would pass it on for what it is worth to those that may have interest.
 
I am presently talking to a new supplier for these tanks – However, I am not completely sold because of the problems I encountered when I stocked the Mato tanks several years ago. From what this new rep is telling me, Hen Long sold tooling to AsiaTam who ungraded the product and now the tooling is being sold to Taigen (new company from what I have been told) and they are doing more upgrades. This is probably why many of the online shops do not have any instock at this time (anyways the ones I looked at, while trying to get information about this melding of the products). 
From what I see right now Taigen will be releasing a German( early and late plastic edition) Tiger 1 with smoke, bb, sound and 2.4 radio with a metal chassis, metal gear set, metal gun barrel, a 2000Mah battery in Desert Yellow, and a retail price of $299.99.
Then the German (early and late metal edition) Tiger 1 with smoke, bb, sound, special color, metal turret & metal gun barrel, muzzle, metal tracks, metal drive wheel and idle wheel, metal gearbox, shock absorbers, metal network, painted commander, metal pull rope, metal armor, metal turret cover, shoulder wheel, metal tank chassis, metal front and rear hooks, metal machine gun light, metal front forward light and 2000Mah battery and 2.4 radio, and a retail price of $550.00.
 There is also going to be an M41A3(retail $349.99), M26 snow Leopard (retail $349.99), and a German panther(retail price $299.99) which looks like they will be mostly plastic with hobby painting, metal gear set, hobby metal tracks, sound, smoke and bb’s.
 
As you can see Tamiya is not the only company raising their prices and/or not coming out with something new. Let’s hope that news from Tamiya in Oct/Nov or next Feb is positive! I know I have my fingers crossed as old hat is old hat and something new is definitely  needed!
 
I have ordered 4 of the tiger 1 early and late plastic edition for September delivery (hoping that they will get here before the museum’s next RC event) this way I can get the opinions of the RC guys on the quality of the product. I also want to see for myself how they are packaged and how many show up at the museum with broken parts, missing parts or that they just do not work! If these pass our inspection I will order what they are calling the full metal edition to see how those are, which will arrive in October.
 
If any of the RC tankers have already gotten their hands on one of these (as I believe they are available overseas) I would really like to hear what you think of them! Could not really tell from pictures if they were the old Hen Longs/ Asiatams,  and just being sold as taigen’s or the new edition ones under the taigen name.
 
Happy Tankin everyone
Karen/Girltankette


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RE: Hen long, asiatam and taigen - 8/11/2012 7:56 PM   
Airbrushler



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Status: offline 		good luck with the new tanks Karen i guess the higher you set your standards for quality the better the people making these tanks will be at making sure they don't have problems so that will be great for your business in providing them, great for the hobby and great for the ones buying them as we are always happy tankers when our tanks are running good...lol thanks for sharing it will be interesting to see if they have a good quality control on their end cause i'm sure you and the other people at the museum do

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RE: Hen long, asiatam and taigen - 8/11/2012 8:07 PM   
girltankette


 

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Status: offline 		Yes quality control is the key to any successful product.  I am in hopes that these will at least be returnable to the distributor if my customer gets one and is not satisfied or I receive one broken or damaged - Mato in my opinion was not well made and they would not take any of the broken or non-working ones back (there was more than I expected) so I told them to take a hike!
They may have been fine for the modeler who can fix and make them work, but for the layman on the street buying one just to play with was a no go.

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RE: Hen long, asiatam and taigen - 8/11/2012 8:21 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: girltankette

However, I am not completely sold because of the problems I encountered when I stocked the Mato tanks several years ago. 



They can have their problems.  They are just a fragile plastic toy, if I think back to my childhood in the early 1960's, the Currie brothers would have had them runined in the first hour, guarantied. 

I have bought 8 of them since I got into the hobby in July 2010.

All of mine have functioned properly in their original form when delivered, but I have used five of them (and soon it will be 6) as a base to install SLU's and upgraded motors/gearboxes, as well as refinish them.  All of these, understandably work quite well.

The first tank of the 8 I have bought was an HL Panther G and while it worked well, it suffered from heavy-handed assembly, every post inside the hull that accepts a screw was cracked or shattered, see:   http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_11182750/tm.htm 

The other 7 were OK in this regard.  I took the rebuild of the Panther on as a challenge, I doubt casual users would have done this (most normal people would have junked it), bit I did finish it, as can be seen in the pictures.

As a hobbist in Canada, they have offered and ecconomical and accessible way to get into the hobby, since Tamiyia 1/16 scale is absent or if found, very costly in retail outlets (the only other option is to buy them online from foriegn sources), Mato is here, in the country.

Most of our club members run modified HL's, for the same reasons I do.



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RE: Hen long, asiatam and taigen - 8/11/2012 8:41 PM   
girltankette


 

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Status: offline 		Glen,  I understand the need for the Mato tanks and it is wonderful that you have the ability to fix them when something goes wrong or needs some tender loving care.  I just could not justifiy to myself carrying a product that has too many problems and costs associated with it. Totally understand where you and others are coming from.  Tamiya is on the expensive side compared to the other manufacturers out there.  I just did not want or need the hassles for my customers or myself. Luckily I was able to use some of the mato tanks as static display pieces on our battlefield.

Karen/Girltankette

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RE: Hen long, asiatam and taigen - 8/11/2012 9:08 PM   
Glen B



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Status: offline 		Karen

I think if you were to sell them, it would have to be with a disclaimer that they really are better suited to hobists, for sure.

The avervagenew "off the street" purchaser will likely have problems, but there again, I don't think that those purchasers would be up to assembling a Tamyia kit, either 

I know it is tough because you want top offer a product buty don't want the buyer to have problems, which often become your problems.





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RE: Hen long, asiatam and taigen - 8/11/2012 9:16 PM   
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Status: online 		believe it or not Tamiyas days of being the #1 are numbered.  Don't believe me look at Torro's metal options or even the improvements Heng Long have made in a reasonably short span of time.
Long term this will do well for the consumer, distributors maybe not so much.
Taigen has been around for a while and I do think it is a marketing company meaning they actually do not make there own product, Anyone with more specific knowledge can correct me on that though.




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RE: Hen long, asiatam and taigen - 8/11/2012 10:17 PM   
Panther G


 

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Status: offline 		Tamiya's days as being numbered are far from over. they are still The best product OTB on the market. The price has stayed close to the same for years now as the other manufacturers are consistently raising thiers to bring their products up to Tamiya quality.
 the question is , will there be new Tamiya tanks in the future. the present models and new ones. 
 Karen I agree, in your market with many new customers you really can't afford to deal in a product that is a quality issue. If these companies keep upgrading their quality that's great but Tamiya will still be the best product for some time to come. 


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RE: Hen long, asiatam and taigen - 8/11/2012 10:37 PM   
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Status: offline 		Hi Karen, Glad you are branching out, which will provide more variety for conversions as well as a better priced tank to many who cannot afford Tamiya's inflated prices.

In regards to Mato...I have 5 although all have been refitted and assigned to Israel, with chassis parts swapped around for other Sherman models and VVSS set for my T-23. One of my M-51s is is a Tamato with MATO top and older Tammy lower. Glenn is correct..list them as ideal for modellers or conversions. The MATO electronics are Scheiße (ask Willy) and all of mine have newer HL electronics and run great. MATO has been decent in selling some parts (other than major chassis sections), but I have never had to return any. Any defective tank can always be sold for needed parts.

HL has also come up a long way from the early glue boxes, but they still have a few problems in cracked mount brackets etc. The only problem I have had was a road wheel that came off my Super Pershing, but that was an older model a few years ago and was fixed when I got home. Still ran great with a wheel missing. Think you will be satisfied with the newer stuff. MATO has hit the jackpot with the VVSS Sherman, but now I see HL has a Sherman 105 in earlier format with VVSS, which looks like a better bogie system.

Maybe you should consider dealing with conversion kits. Lots of nice stuff running around based on the HL PZ III.

Good luck.
Bill

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RE: Hen long, asiatam and taigen - 8/11/2012 10:55 PM   
yellowshaker



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Status: offline 		Maybe sell them to off the street buyers with a written link to rcu's forum. LOL  One way to get more guys into modifying these tanks.
Good luck, Karen. i am sure guys will be happy to see something new available. Hope to see you guys soon.

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RE: Hen long, asiatam and taigen - 8/12/2012 10:20 AM   
philipat


 

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Status: offline 		Karen, any pictures of what you're talking about?

The Tigers sound like these: 
http://www.rctank.de/product_info.php?cPath=123_124&products_id=1836

Possible unpainted versions: 
http://www.rctank.de/product_info.php?cPath=44&products_id=715
http://www.rctank.de/product_info.php?cPath=44&products_id=1727

The Pershing and Bulldog sound interesting. Do they have metal hulls, or just paint jobs?


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RE: Hen long, asiatam and taigen - 8/12/2012 2:04 PM   
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Status: online 		Panther G, I disagree with your opinion for these simple facts.
1.  Two years ago you couldn't find a product that was close to Tamiya's quality, for the same price or less. Now they are popping up from a variety of places where for roughly the same money Tamiya is not only being challenged but is being beaten in some areas. Drawing boards at HL, Torro and the smaller makers have been full for a while. 
2.  Tamiya has done NOTHING new in how long? oh yes there are rumours and dreams but that is all it is. Standing still will not keep your market share or grow new business. I dare say even the static models from certain vendors are beating Tamiya in quality.
3.  Consumer - The RC Tank consumer is changing, There will always be those people that because of their history will want Tamiya, after all at one time it was the only thing available. The consumers entering the market right now are changing, The days of the consumer spending $800 bucks on a tank then spending a ton of hours putting it together are closing. Planes are an example of this where the ARF is taking over and kit building is slowly dying off. Only the die hards want this.
Consumers today want things and want to be able to bring them home and use them. They will buy mods and put them into the tank BUT they are not willing to offer the time investment to build. Currently it is the Hobby itself that stops these consumers from entering the market.
I have a list of them but that is another conversation.
Think I am wrong? Time will tell. I would give it another year maybe year and a half then we can have this conversation again.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Panther G

Tamiya's days as being numbered are far from over. they are still The best product OTB on the market. The price has stayed close to the same for years now as the other manufacturers are consistently raising thiers to bring their products up to Tamiya quality.
 the question is , will there be new Tamiya tanks in the future. the present models and new ones. 
 Karen I agree, in your market with many new customers you really can't afford to deal in a product that is a quality issue. If these companies keep upgrading their quality that's great but Tamiya will still be the best product for some time to come. 





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RE: Hen long, asiatam and taigen - 8/12/2012 2:35 PM   
YHR



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Interesting information.

My questions is what's up with Heng Long. Are they abandoning this market.????? Or did they sell off old tooling to focus on newer and better releases?????

I'll miss them, because in my eyes this Tiagen stuff is just painted HL with a belly full of electonics that aren't compatible with anything, So instead of a $150 tank to start with, I will now have to spend $350. Tamiya just got more attractive to me.

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RE: Hen long, asiatam and taigen - 8/12/2012 3:06 PM   
Glen B



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 in my eyes this Tiagen stuff is just painted HL with a belly full of electonics that aren't compatible with anything, So instead of a $150 tank to start with, I will now have to spend $350. 


Yes, the "custom" paint, cases and electronics are of no use or value to me since I wind up putting in things like 3:1's and new electronics, anyway.  I would just be paying for things I don't need.

I realize this is the hobbist's viewpoint, likely it repersents the minority of their target buyer's requirements.




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RE: Hen long, asiatam and taigen - 8/12/2012 3:11 PM   
ausf



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quote:

ORIGINAL: YHR

My questions is what's up with Heng Long. Are they abandoning this market.?????



I still get weekly emails from different companies in Shantou city. The HL tank, however reboxed is offered, in the $40-50 range. Parts too, metal, etc. Prices fall with quantity, but the only cost effective way is containers full in terms of shipping. It's either big box, slow boat or EMS. I was quoted higher shipping on an order than the price of a HL on Amazon.


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RE: Hen long, asiatam and taigen - 8/12/2012 11:06 PM   
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Status: offline 		2. Tamiya has done NOTHING new in how long?

Recall Tamiya introduced what they called a "Super Sherman" which was nothing more than a Sherman 105 with an M-51 turret and an improper monicer. The turret was great but the chassis had so many mistakes that they lost face big time. Maybe they are taking time on the next one to be sure it's OK.

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RE: Hen long, asiatam and taigen - 8/13/2012 6:08 AM   
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Status: offline 		Heng Long produced the tanks. I am not sure how reliable the source is regarding selling off  moulds, it would seem to be a rather drastic move and the death knell for the company itself. I suspect however, that TaiGen are a subsidary of Heng Long. The business of manufacturing is very convoluted, a brand and a company do not always manufacture the products that they sell. If this is the case then chances are both sets are produced on the same assembly line. This makes sense since the tanks are painted complete rather than in parts. 

Asiatam designed and contracted a factory to produce their designs, the time period for this expired leading to TaiGen being able to sell the same products themselves or perhaps they just broke their contract I suspect the former . This has led to their aftermarket parts being released as well the TaiGen tank range. The TaiGen tank range was also previously sold under Asiatam and can currently be found rebranded under various other companies. I mentioned this some time ago on "another" forum who then sent abusive PM's to me regarding the Waltersons items. 

Dan for the most part TaiGen tanks come with identical electronics as Heng Long. From a general market point of view the TaiGen tank is better, the paint job actually looks relatively decent in the flesh and if you were a customer and had the choice between the Heng Long Tiger I and the TaiGen Tiger I of the same spec, then the TaiGen would win everytime. 

At the moment only the Tiger I is available with the upgrades. This is mostly due to the way the market is and how TaiGen works. You can, should you have the ordering ability order a tank to your own specifications. We stock the Tigers, Panzer III's Panzer IV's, Snow Leopards and Bulldogs. Although I don't often stock the tanks themselves as they have never really been financially viable. 

TaiGen will probably be chucking their new boards and receivers into future tanks, this has been confirmed to me for the Sherman and Leopard and the new Torro Tiger I is also fitted with this board. 

As a model maker in general Tamiya hasn't been number 1 for awhile and is behind a number of Chinese companies. The latter are producing lots of new models on a monthly basis using the latest manufacuring technology. Tamiya has pretty much limited their entire range to releasing models whose moulds are older than I am. Typically Tamiya model kits don't sell well. As a RC tank manufactuerer they haven't been number one for a long time. Very few companies stock them due to the cost of the kits. Quite a few companies in the UK recently slashed their prices to dump Tamiya stock, the largest stockist in the UK as an example.

Simply put the market has changed, the old days where someone bought something and kept it running for years are largely gone, my generation pretty much saw to that. In the West we live in a consumer driven economy where low prices and high volume are more important that high price, low volume and high quality. 

If you would like to discuss reliability drop me an email at Lewis@Panzer-Command.co.uk and I can let you know of some of the problems we've had. Generally speaking Heng Long, TaiGen, Mato or WSN have average reliability records. TaiGen have released their new system which only time will tell about and Mato are always looking to improve their products. 

*Edit* 
I don't think it is TaiGen raising those prices, I suspect it is your distributor. 




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RE: Hen long, asiatam and taigen - 8/13/2012 2:23 PM   
YHR



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Status: offline 		I agree the whole Chinese production and distribution method is like a shell game. You are never quite sure what is going on. I stopped trying to figure out what was going on.

I personally liked what HL had become. A good supply of inexpensive, unpainted tanks. When they dropped in the upgraded RX18 they become reliable as well. With all the third party electronics suppliers, Darkith, Mako, IBL, upgrading the RX18 was an easy thing to do. Or of course you could chuck the electronics, and do a total upgrade with El Mod or the SLU.

Generally all I see with this new offerings is HL quality painted up tanks, with electronics in them that are slightly better, but incompatible with everything else.

At the end of the day I hope someone will still be producing unpainted HL's with RX18 in them . That is what I want. In my world if HL and Tamiya could have just kept doing what they were doing with one new tank release a year(different ), I would have been quite happy. Now I am not sure what is happening in this hobby. If Tamiya pulls the plug on 1/16 scale battle tanks, and the Chineese marketers continue with the shell games, the foundation of this hobby is on shaky ground.

My hope is Tamiya has some good news, and Heng Long just keep on doing what they have been doing.

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RE: Hen long, asiatam and taigen - 8/13/2012 2:41 PM   
ausf



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Status: online 		Looks like it's time for some enterprising sole (pun intended) to contact HL and procure a big box of hulls, uppers and parts, then market their own, just for the hobbyist...

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RE: Hen long, asiatam and taigen - 8/13/2012 4:45 PM   
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Status: offline 		If everything were to suddenly collapse tomorrow, somebody else would step in and take up the job. Overall 1:16th is a small market but it is a market none-the-less. 

There are a few companies coming up, some of them have moulds of Heng Long and therefore the production capacity to make them. I know of a few companies planning to release tanks in the future. 

The main issue is, in the West we really cannot produce anything easily or cheap enough to make it worthwhile and dealing with the actual plants in foreign countries, the local customs and business practices is  a major pain. It may be an idea to test the Western governmets rhetoric about funding and supporting new business opportunities and job creation by applying for funding and opening a factory here. 

Although the banks are still not lending. 


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RE: Hen long, asiatam and taigen - 8/13/2012 8:27 PM   
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Status: offline 		Well you are entitled to your opinion. Mine is these other manufacturers are not up to Tamiya quality standards and wont be for some time. Their prices are going up and so is their quality. i did say that. I said nothing about these other brands not being any good. I have some of all of them.
 Like it or not, Tamiya is still the bench mark. For the near future any way. 
 Comments about not having a new model out every year are also unrealistic. it takes more than 2 years just to get a product to market. 
If that where not the case, the other companies would be selling new models every year themselves.

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RE: Hen long, asiatam and taigen - 8/13/2012 11:26 PM   
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Status: offline 		I believe everyone should have atleast one Tamiya, of course if you can afford it. In my situation I do want to get a tamiya, but at this time I want to have atleast three to four tanks for combat. And the heng long brand will be just fine, especially with the electronics out now. Now if only the suspension on the HL's was better. I do not own a tamiya tank, my deuce I am building is a tamiya though, and the fit, and quality are second to none. Tamiya is on top of the game, but there are other teams getting involved, and to compete they need to get better.

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