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Help with a BVM T-33? - 8/17/2012 3:39 AM   
wntofly



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Need help with a BVM T-33 I just picked up that was started by previous owner. This is one of the old kits with the old style main and nose gear mounts. I ordered some new parts from BVM to upgrade the nose gear mounts and the speed brakes but I am working off of some very old plans. The parts packages arrived with no instructions or diagrams. Can anyone post pictures of their speed brake installations to give me some sort of idea how these new parts are intended to go together?

I did my best guess on the nose gear formers and flex plates and I think I came out OK there. I am going to retro fit the main gear mounts for the new style purple retracts, and will have to put on my design cap and come up with some ideas on how those need to drop in. I just can't get my head around how these speed brake parts should be installed. If I see a picture of the install or the plans I might be able to figure out where to go from here.

Anyone able to lend a hand?

Thanks,

Jim E



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RE: Help with a BVM T-33? - 8/17/2012 3:51 AM   
Wclays


 

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Status: offline 		Maybe I can help. Since I happen to have one.

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RE: Help with a BVM T-33? - 8/17/2012 3:56 AM   
wntofly



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Status: offline 		Sent you a PM.

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RE: Help with a BVM T-33? - 8/17/2012 4:22 AM   
sidgates



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Status: offline 		Jim,
I have a set of BVM plans for the turbine version when they first did the conversion. It shows the speed brakes assembly. I am going to try to go to the Jet Rally in Ft. Collins either Frid. or Sat. and it will probably be Sat. and I can bring along the plans I have if they help.

If I don't make it up to the rally I live about 2 minutes off the highway at I-25 and Yale. 2380 S. Holly Place. Denver

I also owned the original BVM T-33 ducted fan version and tonight I didn't find any plans for it but if I had them they are somewhere in my basement.

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RE: Help with a BVM T-33? - 8/17/2012 5:07 AM   
wntofly



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Hi Sid,

We are hoping to get up to Loveland on Saturday as well, and would love to peek at your plans if its not too much trouble. That would be terrific. And... I think I have some video stashed away somewhere of your DF T-33 from an old Denver Jet rally. Was it mostly silver colored? Let me do some digging.

One quick question......did yours have the removable tail option?  If you had your choice,  would you make it removable or just join the tail permanently?

Thanks for your help Sid and I hope to see you Saturday.

Jim



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RE: Help with a BVM T-33? - 8/17/2012 4:50 PM   
David Gladwin



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Status: offline 		Be warned, the OLD style T33 at turbine weights was a dog at or near the stall and was difficult to land with consistency. Mine flicked into spins on several occasions and on what was to be its last flight, the final round of the Jet World Masters at Wroughton, (I just did not enjoy flying it) it flicked into a spin turning finals and went through a hangar roof. Many of us had tried to improve things with aileron upset (crow) and stall strips on the wing roots, it improved things but the fundamental problem was the slightly drooped leading edge on the root section, the opposite of what it should have been and a number of pilots who have flown the real T33 have told me it could get quite exciting at the stall and spin. Keep the speed up and all was well.

BVM have modified the wing root section for a proper cure (filled the droop or "cusp') and I believe current models are fine. After I crashed mine at Wroughton two US fliers came up to me and told me their's had crashed in similar circumstances so I wasn't just me ! So, fill in that "undercamber" if you want decent slow speed handling !

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RE: Help with a BVM T-33? - 8/17/2012 5:58 PM   
Harley Condra


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wntofly

Need help with a BVM T-33 I just picked up that was started by previous owner. This is one of the old kits with the old style main and nose gear mounts. I ordered some new parts from BVM to upgrade the nose gear mounts and the speed brakes but I am working off of some very old plans. The parts packages arrived with no instructions or diagrams. Can anyone post pictures of their speed brake installations to give me some sort of idea how these new parts are intended to go together?

I did my best guess on the nose gear formers and flex plates and I think I came out OK there. I am going to retro fit the main gear mounts for the new style purple retracts, and will have to put on my design cap and come up with some ideas on how those need to drop in. I just can't get my head around how these speed brake parts should be installed. If I see a picture of the install or the plans I might be able to figure out where to go from here.

Anyone able to lend a hand?

Thanks,

Jim E



I have an older BVM T-33 that was originally a ducted fan kit, then converted to turbione power by the previous owner. The turbine ducting had been installed, and the fuselage frames had been reinforced to handle the turbine flight loads.
I have done the rest, and I am busy painting it right now.
I have installed the purple nose gear and aluminum flex arms, but intend to use the original main landing gear units with the cast aluminum frames as opposed to retrofitting the purple gear. The purple gear requires reversing the trunnions to place the air cylinder outboard of the wing center section. This requires "mining" a tunnel in the outboard wing panel at it's root rib, and a corresponding hole in the fuselage wing root. The older style with the aluminum frame is bulletproof, and will work just fine. See the pix of the speed brakes and landing gear.




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RE: Help with a BVM T-33? - 8/17/2012 11:09 PM   
hooker53



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Status: offline 		Now I'm confused. I thought BVM posted a mod for those wings and the cusp that would fix this prob. Harley. What say yee.

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RE: Help with a BVM T-33? - 8/17/2012 11:27 PM   
sidgates



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Status: offline 		On my original style wing we flew it with ducted fan. We installed angle brackets on the leading edge as recommended by BVM and did not have the stall spin trouble reported by others. We did have problems with consistant good landings, not sure why.

I flew the full scale T-33 for approx 200 hours with the angle brackets on the leading edge and never had a stall spin problem. We would high speed stall it on almost every flight and all we got was a lot of buffet but no wing drop.

Paint scheme from the 27 FIS Rome, Ny 1956

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RE: Help with a BVM T-33? - 8/17/2012 11:33 PM   
hooker53



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Status: offline 		Hello Sid. Do you have a close up of that angle mod you did? This is a new one on me.

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RE: Help with a BVM T-33? - 8/17/2012 11:39 PM   
Harley Condra


 

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Status: offline 		BVM did post a fix for the wing root filler.
I looked all over the website today, but could not find it.
Here's how to accomplish the fill job.

Scuff the lower surface of the undercambered stub wing with 80 grit, get some body filler (as shown) and fill in the undercambered cusp on the lower wing root from the fuselage side to the end of the stub wing. Blend it into the leading edge contour, the fuselage side and the butt rib. Sand it with 80, 120 and 320 grit paper, and prime with PPG K36 or your favorite primer. Contour wise, it should be fairly flat from the leading edge to the forward edge of the landing gear door area.
Note the photo showing the 6" scale lying on the surface. There is some light showing under the aft end of the scale. It should match the contour of the outer wing panel.

A note on body filler:
I have found many different types of polyester body filler/spot putties that will do the job, but my favorite is Evercoat "Spot-Lite" P/N 100445. It comes in a pretty pink can, and is very light weight. Just hoist all of the polyester filler products on the local auto paint supply shelves and buy the lightest weight one. "Spot-Lite" used to be the lightest, but I haven't bought a new can in a couple of years, so there might be a lighter weight product available now. Make sure you get plenty of creme hardener.
If I find a lighter one, I will try it.

Here's some pix of a completed stub wing.


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RE: Help with a BVM T-33? - 8/18/2012 12:48 AM   
hooker53



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Status: offline 		Harley. Won't the new molded wings work with the old fuse and problem solved? I would love to have a set of those wings if it does and I come into a small sum. Ha. Ha.

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RE: Help with a BVM T-33? - 8/18/2012 1:36 AM   
sidgates



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Status: offline 		I will look for a pic. Not sure I ever took one. I also had schetches from BVM and will look for those also.

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RE: Help with a BVM T-33? - 8/18/2012 1:42 AM   
hooker53



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Status: offline 		Thanks Sid. I have seen and was gonna do the Mod Harley is talking of but your Mod is a first with me. Must have been a thrill to fly the real thing. Regardless of the mods needed, I love the jet and have wanted one since I found that BVM kitted one.

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RE: Help with a BVM T-33? - 8/18/2012 2:20 AM   
smchale



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quote:

ORIGINAL: hooker53

Now I'm confused. I thought BVM posted a mod for those wings and the cusp that would fix this prob. Harley. What say yee.


http://www.bvmjets.com/jetkits/T33/wing_mod.htm

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RE: Help with a BVM T-33? - 8/18/2012 2:37 AM   
hooker53



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Status: offline 		That's it. Thanks Sean. Found a main tank. Now if a set of used saddles would come up, I'm good to go. Still like the idea of the new molded wings but that's no biggy for the price diff. I would do the mod and add the CF and let it roll. I love that kit.

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RE: Help with a BVM T-33? - 8/18/2012 3:11 AM   
Harley Condra


 

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Status: offline 		The new all composite wings do not solve the undercambered cusp problem.
The composite wings start outboard of the cusp, so it still needs to be filled, as the cusp is part of the fuselage molding.

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RE: Help with a BVM T-33? - 8/18/2012 3:22 AM   
hooker53



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Status: offline 		Good info Harley and thanks a lot for that bit. Sometimes if your kit is packed up you can't get a vissy on the grand scheme of it. Ha. Ha.

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RE: Help with a BVM T-33? - 8/18/2012 4:55 AM   
sidgates



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quote:

ORIGINAL: hooker53

Hello Sid. Do you have a close up of that angle mod you did? This is a new one on me.


Hooker53,
I found the article in BVM Inlet #24. See picture below. This mod was probably before the one Harley mentioned above. I not sure which is the best way to go.

You were right about the thrill flying the T-33. I soloed the T-33 with 4hrs of dual instruction after 40 hrs of transistion time in a T-28. An ever bigger thrill was our my first solo in the F-94C. There were no dual control F-94C's so we went to 10 hrs of ground school and then our "maiden" flight. Climb speed in the T-33 was 275knots. The F-94C we held in down on the deck till we hit 475knots then started our climb.

I am currently scratch building the F-94C for turbine. Hope to fly yet this fall.

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RE: Help with a BVM T-33? - 8/18/2012 4:57 AM   
sidgates



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Status: offline 		I don't know what happened in the picture above. I will try again on the picture.
Sid

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RE: Help with a BVM T-33? - 8/18/2012 8:07 AM   
marc s



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Status: offline 		Hi, I built a BVM T33 for a friend a good few years back, have many photos and here are a few of the brakes - can send more if you need of other areas...

marcs



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RE: Help with a BVM T-33? - 8/18/2012 6:00 PM   
hooker53



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Status: offline 		This is some great info here. Thanks Sid and Marc for posting this goodies. Sure. Will take all the photos I can get.

Roy

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RE: Help with a BVM T-33? - 8/19/2012 1:31 AM   
smchale



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Status: offline 		Roy,

Check out this video on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5h1l2wkOso&feature=youtube_gdata_player

It shows the speed boards driven by a single servo. If you watcH closely you can see the servo arm lined up with the arm when the doors are down. This was by the late Ralf Dvorak. Very talented builder!

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RE: Help with a BVM T-33? - 8/19/2012 1:49 AM   
hooker53



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Status: offline 		Very slick. I like that set-up. Thanks Sean.

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RE: Help with a BVM T-33? - 8/19/2012 6:07 PM   
wntofly



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Status: offline 		Thanks to all who have chimed in with your help. Lots of good info for the T-33.

After looking at all the pictures of current installs of the speed brakes and comparing them to the parts I was sent from BVM.......I am still a bit fuzzy.
 
I can duplicate the design and construction from all the examples provided (or even come up with something of my own makings) but after spending good money on this new install kit from BVM, I sure would like to use what was sent and make sure I am using the latest and greatest design currently available.  All the plans I have had access to do not show these new parts and no info or diagram came with this install kit. Keep in mind I am working from an old kit. 

Hopefully this picture will upload with out any trouble.

Thanks again everyone,

Jim

 

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