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DLE-20 Ignition Module Bad ??? - 8/18/2012 10:48 PM   
Taz_Hobbies


 

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Status: offline 		I guess my Ultimate does not want to fly. Converted her over to gas from a nightmare with glow engines. completed plumbing her and wiring her today and was ready to verify the ignition timing before starting her for the first time.

Fresh 2700Mah / 4.8V pack fully charged. Wired correctly. TDC located and set on the degree wheel in place, ignition on, rotate past the hall effect sensor AND......  nothing. I checked for spark with 2 different battery packs and both with and without the opti-kill switch inline. 

Two things I noticed. First this DLE has the dreaded #4 ignition box. I have read stories about one of the boxes being notably inconsistant which I think was #4. And two I noticed how much air gap is between the magnet and the hall effect sensor. I though the magnet also protruded out of the hub farther, this one is flush. I was wondering if there is a spec measurement on the air gap on the sensor? A DLA-32 I have on another plane has about half of the air gap the DLE has.

Sounds like the box is bad to me, what do you think guys?





 





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RE: DLE-20 Ignition Module Bad ??? - 8/18/2012 11:34 PM   
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Status: offline 		Hey Taz.
Two things to check first before you throw in the towel. Unplug the hall sensor from the ignition. Remove the sparkplug from the engine. Reinsert the plug into the cap so you can watch for a spark, then take something like a small paperclip and touch the connections of the black and the white wire coming out of the ignition, in effect, shorting the two together. Watch the electrode on the sparkplug, and if the ignition is good it will produce a spark at the plug. If it's bad you will get no spark. If it does spark, the hall sensor needs to be replaced and you'll be good to go.
Second thing to check requires that you take the two screws from the sensor mount, flip it upside down and approach the magnet. As you pull it away from the magnet, if it then works, the sensor is either inserted in the holder upside down, or the magnet was inserted upside down with the north pole facing out. Don't laugh!! You would not believe how many ignitions I've gotten in for repair where this was the case!!
Either way, you now have an idea how to check for both conditions.
Hope it helps you decide for sure what is happening with your ignition.

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RE: DLE-20 Ignition Module Bad ??? - 8/19/2012 12:10 AM   
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ORIGINAL: gr8flyer55

Hey Taz.
Two things to check first before you throw in the towel. Unplug the hall sensor from the ignition. Remove the sparkplug from the engine. Reinsert the plug into the cap so you can watch for a spark, then take something like a small paperclip and touch the connections of the black and the white wire coming out of the ignition, in effect, shorting the two together. Watch the electrode on the sparkplug, and if the ignition is good it will produce a spark at the plug. If it's bad you will get no spark. If it does spark, the hall sensor needs to be replaced and you'll be good to go.
Second thing to check requires that you take the two screws from the sensor mount, flip it upside down and approach the magnet. As you pull it away from the magnet, if it then works, the sensor is either inserted in the holder upside down, or the magnet was inserted upside down with the north pole facing out. Don't laugh!! You would not believe how many ignitions I've gotten in for repair where this was the case!!
Either way, you now have an idea how to check for both conditions.
Hope it helps you decide for sure what is happening with your ignition.


Great tips. I did not think to check the hall effect sensor independantly of the box. Thanks.
I will also see if the sensor is upside down (I think it can go either way if i recall) in it's mount.

Excellent stuff! This is why I post on RCU.  Thanks!




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RE: DLE-20 Ignition Module Bad ??? - 8/19/2012 12:33 AM   
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Status: offline 		Taz, there are ignition module testers and sensor testers available. They really help out for problems like this. And, as always, bring a spare module with you when you go flying. There's no telling when they may fail. It will save you a wasted drive. Dan.

http://www.valleyviewrc.com/estore/engine-parts/ignition-accessories/ignition-test-kits.html

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RE: DLE-20 Ignition Module Bad ??? - 8/19/2012 12:53 AM   
Taz_Hobbies


 

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ORIGINAL: All Day Dan

Taz, there are ignition module testers and sensor testers available. They really help out for problems like this. And, as always, bring a spare module with you when you go flying. There's no telling when they may fail. It will save you a wasted drive. Dan.

http://www.valleyviewrc.com/estore/engine-parts/ignition-accessories/ignition-test-kits.html


Normally I'd check for a pulse on the sensor with my fluke meter, but it was damaged accidentally so I have no meter at all.
I did manually jump the sensor, nothing I do fires the module. It is, as best i can tell, dead as a doornail.


FYI -  I just bought one of each. I like the degree wheel! Can't hurt to have them in the toolbox.  Thanks for the link.



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RE: DLE-20 Ignition Module Bad ??? - 8/19/2012 1:35 AM   
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Status: offline 		Might also check the rubber insulator in the boot. It is easy to damage, and if cracked it will arc to the outer metal housing instead of arc through the plug's gap.

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RE: DLE-20 Ignition Module Bad ??? - 8/19/2012 2:49 AM   
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Might also check the rubber insulator in the boot. It is easy to damage, and if cracked it will arc to the outer metal housing instead of arc through the plug's gap.


There is zero energy at all being produced. I am certain the module is dead at this point.
This Ultimate has been rough. A wing panel with no wing bolt insert, took 3 cowls to get one delivered that wasn't broken, a OS 1.20AX that flamed out for no reason, a YS1.10FZ that would not stay in tune consistantly and is currently at the YS shop in Nevada getting much needed attention and now a brand new DLE-20 with a bad ignition...  I cannot seem to get a break on this plane!



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RE: DLE-20 Ignition Module Bad ??? - 8/19/2012 4:18 AM   
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Status: offline 		I've had a string of that kind of luck. This hobby can try your patience at times.

Hopefully with a new module you will have a sweet plane that will give you many hours of fun.

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RE: DLE-20 Ignition Module Bad ??? - 8/19/2012 6:15 AM  1 votes
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Taz_Hobbies


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffinTD

Might also check the rubber insulator in the boot. It is easy to damage, and if cracked it will arc to the outer metal housing instead of arc through the plug's gap.


There is zero energy at all being produced. I am certain the module is dead at this point.
This Ultimate has been rough. A wing panel with no wing bolt insert, took 3 cowls to get one delivered that wasn't broken, a OS 1.20AX that flamed out for no reason, a YS1.10FZ that would not stay in tune consistantly and is currently at the YS shop in Nevada getting much needed attention and now a brand new DLE-20 with a bad ignition...  I cannot seem to get a break on this plane!



Does the plug spark when you turn the Ign switch on and off.May not fire every time but should most of the time.
With ign switch on check and see if there is voltage at the plug going to the hall sensor.Red should be batt voltage white wire slightly less.Are you sure you have voltage going into the ign. Check the Futaba type plugs for bent pins.
BCCHI

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RE: DLE-20 Ignition Module Bad ??? - 8/19/2012 7:36 AM  1 votes
av8tor1977



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Status: offline 		Quote from a post made by Jedi Jody:

It was requested that I post this troubleshooting guide for Rcexl and many C&H ignitions here in this thread. If you have no spark or think you are having an ignition problem, carefully following this guide will test the ignition module, hall sensor, and spark plug cap components. This guide can be used for single or twin cylinder ignitions, it does not test the manual or any optical ignition switches that may be in the system. You will need a good fully charged 4 cell Nicad or Nimh battery, an old servo extension, and your trusty volt meter. So,......


Take an old expendable servo extension and cut off the male plug end, separate the wires, strip a bit of insulation from each of the 3 leads and plug the other end into the sensor lead on the ignition module.

Put a good spark plug in the cap, doesn't need to be all the way seated but far enough for the hex of the plug to make good contact with the metal shell of the plug cap, plug a fully charged 4 cell battery directly into the ignition.

Test for battery voltage at the red and black wires of the test extension you made and plugged into the sensor lead of the module, if there is no voltage replace the module, if there is battery voltage->

Short the white and black wires together, every time you break this connection there should be a spark, no or intermittent spark=bad module, has good spark->

Remove the test lead and plug the sensor on the engine into the module and turn the engine over, no spark, replace the sensor, good spark->

Remove the spark plug, look down into the plug cap and turn the engine over, if you see spark arcing through the silicone boot to the metal shell, replace the spark plug cap, no visible spark but you hear a snap->

Put a small screw driver into the bottom of the cap, turn the engine over and you should observe spark jumping from the screw driver to the plug cap shell outside of the silicone boot, an arc of about 1/4"-3/8", if it does this there is nothing wrong with the ignition, if you hear an arc but it's not in the cap with the screw driver, it could be a problem with the resistor in the cap or the high tension lead where it goes into the cap, replace the plug cap.

All of this can be done on a bench, the plug does not need to be grounded to the engine.

Good luck!

AV8TOR

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RE: DLE-20 Ignition Module Bad ??? - 8/21/2012 12:46 AM   
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Status: offline 		Taz.. by reading your first post its clear you are fixing a new engine that probably wasnt broke. You mentioned the 'dreaded #4 ignition box' yet just after that, you said "I have read stories about one of the boxes being notably inconsistant which I think was #4". You are going off some forum information that claims a faulty ignition, yet also addmiting you are not sure even what ignition people were talking about.. I will stop there.

Not trying to be rude man, but this seriously sounds like you created problems for yourself. I can understand wanting to verify the ignition timing, because some people do find it to be off from factory..

I did have a DLE 20 ignition just quit working in the air. No real explanation, used a 6 volt Nimh.. and no found cause from the factory. "The ignition failed at some point" was their exact words. It was replaced under warrenty. I dont know what the number was on it.

Sometimes, if it aint broke dont fix it.. can be your best friend. And in this case, it sure sounds like you expected problems.. and got them. Too bad you didnt try running the engine, and then problem solve what might be needed. Mine did not need timing adjusted, ran out of the box with minimal tuning, and has been running (screaming) ever since.

Maybe Im wrong, but if Im right, just maybe it will prevent you from fixing another new product before you even try using it.





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RE: DLE-20 Ignition Module Bad ??? - 8/21/2012 3:34 AM   
w8ye



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Status: offline 		The factory position for the sensor on the DLE 20 is centered on the casting seam.

Mine ran fine from the beginning and continues to do so. I did check the timing and it was at 33 degrees.

All my ignition failures have centered around the initial problem being the plug cap leading to blowing out the sensor.

I've never lost an ignition module.

I've alway run four cells on them.


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RE: DLE-20 Ignition Module Bad ??? - 8/25/2012 12:04 AM   
Taz_Hobbies


 

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Taz.. by reading your first post its clear you are fixing a new engine that probably wasnt broke. You mentioned the 'dreaded #4 ignition box' yet just after that, you said "I have read stories about one of the boxes being notably inconsistant which I think was #4". You are going off some forum information that claims a faulty ignition, yet also addmiting you are not sure even what ignition people were talking about.. I will stop there.

Not trying to be rude man, but this seriously sounds like you created problems for yourself. I can understand wanting to verify the ignition timing, because some people do find it to be off from factory..

I did have a DLE 20 ignition just quit working in the air. No real explanation, used a 6 volt Nimh.. and no found cause from the factory. "The ignition failed at some point" was their exact words. It was replaced under warrenty. I dont know what the number was on it.

Sometimes, if it aint broke dont fix it.. can be your best friend. And in this case, it sure sounds like you expected problems.. and got them. Too bad you didnt try running the engine, and then problem solve what might be needed. Mine did not need timing adjusted, ran out of the box with minimal tuning, and has been running (screaming) ever since.

Maybe Im wrong, but if Im right, just maybe it will prevent you from fixing another new product before you even try using it.



Noty trying to rude? I guess it just comes naturally without trying then?

Who was "fixing" a new engine? I was double checking the ignition timing. This is imperitive especially because in the manual it says 38 - 40 degrees BTDC. DLE claim it is factory set at 32 degrees BTDC AND it has been widely reported that it's anywhere from 24 degress to 50+ degrees!!! So how did I blow the ignition box by checking and verifying the timing? Seriously, you may run yours out of the box without doing anything and that is simply awesome. I, on the other hand have the ability to test, check and verify certain parameters AND I ENJOY knowing my stuff is correct! Just like you probably run 87 octane garbage gas from 7/11. Some folks run engines forever with it and that is awesome for them. I go to the local FBO and get 100LL. I filter it 2 or 3 times.

AND....  if I didn't check the timing, it would have SUCKED 10 times as bad to ASSume everything was okay and get it all buttoned up and THEN determine the ignition was bad.

So.... HOW DID I CREATE A PROBLEM FOR MYSELF? I checked the timing and that killed the ignition box? **** are you talking about dude? Seriously. With that logic, I guess if I check that I filled the fuel tank the engine will kick the rod out of it or if I check my wing bolts I guess a servo will go bad....

I am just not sure where you come up with this stuff!!! 



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RE: DLE-20 Ignition Module Bad ??? - 8/28/2012 2:47 AM   
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Status: offline 		Hey Taz, I re-read everything, and I must have confused what you were explaining originally. somehow thought I read you fiddeling with other things as well before installing... So, sorry bout that.. but I didnt think I was really being shi ty. I mentioned having a bad ignition box myself, and it was replaced. Meaning I can go along with yours maybe suspect. Anyways, didnt think Id have gotten you that worked up.. and didnt mean it to.

So that asside, any luck getting it going yet?


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RE: DLE-20 Ignition Module Bad ??? - 8/28/2012 2:49 AM   
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Status: offline 		for the record though, you are way off on your description of me.


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RE: DLE-20 Ignition Module Bad ??? - 8/28/2012 7:02 AM   
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ORIGINAL: Shimano

for the record though, you are way off on your description of me.

  After reading all This, if anyone is being rude it is the other guy, nice to here you are using av gas but what for ? 91 to 93 octane is just fine I see you are insinuating
Shimano is a guy that uses Mini mart gas WOW talk about rude. IMHO why tinker with an engine right out of the box ? mount it on a plane, set it and go fly but that's me . I have yet bought an engine that was bad, I never tinker unless there is something  wrong at the time I first run and set the engine on the plane. There are those that would rather tinker, tinker, tinker than fly

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