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OS .60 FP Bushed engine suddenly dies - 9/7/2012 3:54 AM   
Firepower R/C


 

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Status: offline 		Hi guys, I was wondering if anyone could give me some clues as to a problem I am having with a friend's O.S. .60 (bushed engine/airbleed carb/pitts muffler) he has on a Goldberg Cub. This engine idles wonderfully, transitions very well, and runs great at full throttle... BUT, when left around 1/4 to 1/3 throttle for 5-30 seconds, it suddenly dies randomly. No sputtering, no gurgling, no lean-out. Just dies like I flipped a switch. It will start right back up every time. This engine is in tune I assure you... it runs great, and it will idle/run forever, EXCEPT at 1/4 to 1/3 throttle!! On ground or in flight, doesn't matter. It will stay running in that range IF you leave the glow igniter attached. I have tried what seems like everything, such as:

- new plumbling, twice (no bubbles at all during operation)
- new fuel
- tried many new plugs, no difference
- carb disassembled and cleaned
- sealed backplate and carb
- sealed the pitts muffler to the engine
- checked head for cracks, bolt tightness
- checked for leaks everywhere
- tried plugging a muffler pipe (to increase back pressure)

I will now share a couple of things that are suspect:

- I saw a moderate scratch in the cylinder wall.
- the backplate looked as if it had been rubbed fairly hard by the crank pin/conrod... well beyond slight swirling I have seen before.
- when the engine quits, the fuel instantly runs back to the tank from the carb. My other engines seem to keep fuel in the line up to the carb unless it runs out, at least when the throttle is at idle.

Any thoughts? This engine rans perfect in this exact plane & configuration a few years ago... only after a clean-up and general servicing to bring it back to flight status did it start this behavior.

< Message edited by Firepower R/C -- 9/7/2012 10:40 PM >

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RE: OS .60 FP Bushed engine suddenly dies - 9/7/2012 4:22 AM   
fiery


 

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Status: offline 		Symptoms indicate low compression / leakdown caused by poor piston liner seal due to wear or damage. You indicate there is a score in the liner.

Time to retire it unless a new piston and liner or donor engine can be located.

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RE: OS .60 FP Bushed engine suddenly dies - 9/7/2012 8:25 AM   
Johnkpap



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Status: offline 		I would take the engine out and bench run it, If it behaves in this "Controled Condition" I would suspect it is a Fuel / tank issue.

The last similar issue issue I had was caused by a "Air leak" around the carb where it fits the engine. Loctite & Sealent fixed this one.

If the engine runs with lots of power wide open it is not worn out yet !!! All the engines I have worn out had problems starting and lacked power wide open..... not the random stopping stuff.

Johnkpap








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RE: OS .60 FP Bushed engine suddenly dies - 9/7/2012 10:40 AM   
controlliner



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Status: offline 		If the fuel drains from the carb back to the tank when the engine stops, I would say the tank level is too low. The centerline of the should be just a slight amount below the needle valve. If an ABN or ABC engine quits when it gets up to temperature and is hard to restart, it is worn. Yours doesn't seem like it is worn out.

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RE: OS .60 FP Bushed engine suddenly dies - 9/7/2012 4:50 PM   
Firepower R/C


 

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Status: offline 		Thanks for the input, guys. Let me elaborate. The engine runs wide open, and runs well... full power is being developed. It also idles well, runs at half throttle perfectly, and will never sputter or so much as cough as long as I stay away from 1/3 throttle. Fuel tank position is correct, and is the exact same as before the problem surfaced, so that theory is out (the tank was only partially full when I saw it drain back). The carb was sealed to the engine as I noted in my first post. No change in the problem after sealing. Lastly, it starts and runs fine when up to temp, just not at 1/3 throttle. At that throttle position, it may run 10 seconds, it may run a minute, but at some random point it will stop without sounding too rich or lean. The idle is very consistant, and will idle for many minutes without loading up or leaning out. It seems perfectly dialed in! Very strange.

Just to eliminate some possibilites, I am thinking about trying a different carb. I just need to find one that will fit. if that doesn't work, I will pull the motor and put it on the stand.

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RE: OS .60 FP Bushed engine suddenly dies - 9/7/2012 5:15 PM   
flybyjohn


 

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Status: offline 		I had a magnum 25 that was mounted sideways that would do that exact same thing. It idled perfect and ran from 1/2 to full exellent. I originally thought my problem was that a little drop of fuel was building up on the throat of the carb when between 1/4 and 1/2 throttle and when it got big enough would suck into the engine and snuff the glow plug. I ended up leaning out the idle just slightly and have not had the problem since. I don't know if this was my problem as I changed the glow plug at the same time. But my simptoms were the same, it would be running great at 1/3 throttle and sound good but all of a sudden it would just quit like someone threw an ignition switch off.

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RE: OS .60 FP Bushed engine suddenly dies - 9/7/2012 5:57 PM   
Sport_Pilot



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Status: online 		Unless full or nearly so fuel should always run back to the tank when the engine quits, but not instantly.  To run back instantly indicates that either the needle is open more than it should be, or there is a leak in the line somewhere.  I suspect he latter.  Normally worn engines affect the idle and hot start first until it gets worse, then performance is worse in all catigories.

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RE: OS .60 FP Bushed engine suddenly dies - 9/7/2012 6:52 PM   
Firepower R/C


 

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Status: offline 		Does anyone have a recommendation for an appropriate glow plug? I had a OS #8 in it.

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RE: OS .60 FP Bushed engine suddenly dies - 9/12/2012 2:32 AM   
Broken Wings



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Firepower R/C

Thanks for the input, guys. Let me elaborate. The engine runs wide open, and runs well... full power is being developed. It also idles well, runs at half throttle perfectly, and will never sputter or so much as cough as long as I stay away from 1/3 throttle. Fuel tank position is correct, and is the exact same as before the problem surfaced, so that theory is out (the tank was only partially full when I saw it drain back). The carb was sealed to the engine as I noted in my first post. No change in the problem after sealing. Lastly, it starts and runs fine when up to temp, just not at 1/3 throttle. At that throttle position, it may run 10 seconds, it may run a minute, but at some random point it will stop without sounding too rich or lean. The idle is very consistant, and will idle for many minutes without loading up or leaning out. It seems perfectly dialed in! Very strange.

Just to eliminate some possibilites, I am thinking about trying a different carb. I just need to find one that will fit. if that doesn't work, I will pull the motor and put it on the stand.


The 2 needle carburetor from the OS .46 AX and FX engines will fit the FP-60 engine. You have to push the carburetor down hard with you thumb and squeeze the o-ring to make sure the small screws on each side line up.

Mine works very well with the .46 carb and the carb throat I.D. is a bit larger as well.

Note: the carb to case o-ring is thinner on the 46 carburetor.

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RE: OS .60 FP Bushed engine suddenly dies - 9/12/2012 2:39 PM   
jaka


 

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Status: offline 		Hi!
Replace the silencer!!!!

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RE: OS .60 FP Bushed engine suddenly dies - 9/12/2012 7:30 PM   
turbo.gst


 

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Status: offline 		Does the rpm change at idle when you remove the plug? If it does you may need to try a different plug. Do the pinch test at idle. Does it speed up when pinched, or sag instantly. Does it occur regardless of fuel level in the tank?

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RE: OS .60 FP Bushed engine suddenly dies - 9/12/2012 8:48 PM   
jaka


 

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Status: offline 		Hi!
The first thing you should do when you encounter an engine like this is to replace all things that isn't original.
In your case it's the silencer.
The silencers volume and outlet area means a lot to how an engine behaves and runs.
So replace it with the original OS silencer.

A change to another carb will not do any good as the original is as good there is.

Some additional advise.
Fuel: use 5-10% nitro and 20% castor oil ,or a mix of Castor oil and syntetic. Do never use more nitro than 15%!
Glow plug: Use a OS 8 or Enya 3 plug! There are imany otjhers that works eually well but these are the old stand byes!
Fuel tank: Use a 10-12 oz tank.Not larger. And mount it according to the "Tank mounting rule", preferably using a two clunk system (Uni-Flow).
Prop: 12x6 or 13x4 or for a very slow flying model 14x4. APC , Graupner Sonic or RAM are the best available.

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RE: OS .60 FP Bushed engine suddenly dies - 9/19/2012 3:59 PM   
Firepower R/C


 

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Status: offline 		Well, I am not convinced that the muffler or the fuel tank size is the source of the problem, and the reason is that it worked perfectly for years with this setup. I have wrestled with getting pitts mufflers to work properly with engines many times, and am familiar with the potential problem and solutions. The plugs have mostly all been OS #8 up to this point. No real change in RPM when glow lighter is removed. Pinch test is good, about 1-1.5 seconds until it stops. 10% fuel. Prop: MA 12x6. By the way, I am a firm believer in the pinch test. It works very well, if you know what you are doing.

Anyway, I do appreciate all of the input. I will consider all advice when I tear back into this problem in a day or two, and I will let you all know how it turns out. My friend really wants to fly the plane, so if we can't find the problem in an hour or two, I am going to throw a nice running Evolution .46NT on it.

I'll be back...

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RE: OS .60 FP Bushed engine suddenly dies - 11/24/2012 3:06 PM   
do335a


 

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Status: offline 		So two months later, following the "day or two", what did you find?

Your idea of replacing the engine in the plane is the perfect fail-safe solution.

As for all the other things that worked several years ago, that's true, they did. And now the engine is much more worn, so it does not follow that some of the suggestions dismissed do not apply.

As for the carb being as good as it gets, as recommened by one critic, I disagree. The air bleed carbs are mush more crude, less advanced and less precise than the two needle carbs presently used on most upper grade engines.

If they were indeed as good as it gets, that's what we'd see on all our engines. They are definitley a less costly item to manufacture, with fewer parts and bing less precise. If the manufacturer could do no better, then OS would not ever have had any need to make an engine with fuel injection (the 1.40 2 stroke).

The logic just does not follow.

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RE: OS .60 FP Bushed engine suddenly dies - 11/24/2012 4:03 PM   
jaka


 

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Status: offline 		Hi!
If you have a large scar in ther liner or piston, that's probably the reason that your engine doesn't work properly.

But! Have you mounted the tank right? The center of the tank should be mounted according to the : Tank mounting rule!
That is with the center of the tank inline with carb intake orifice when the plane sits horiontal (you have to lift the tail).
That is very important!
Have you checked the pressure nipple on the silencer? I once had a pressure nipple that was clogged with Epoxy glue...Did not understand why the engine suddenly stopped after a few seconds running.

The air bleed carb is not the culprit! It's as good as it can be on a sport engine like the bushed OS engine.

Do you set the engine with the planes nose pointing upwards? You should!
Do not rely on "pinch test" It not reliable enough! Always set the engine by ear! That's how all racers do i!


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RE: OS .60 FP Bushed engine suddenly dies - 11/24/2012 5:56 PM   
jeffie8696



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Status: offline 		I wish more manufacturers would make a simple air bleed carb that actually works than the crappy twin needle ones you see coming from Chinese engines which are generally sound except the carb.
I would try a colder plug to help lean out the midrange, you can run a leaner high speed setting since a too hot plug requires a rich high speed needle to compensate. You indicated the rpms do not drop when you disconnect the glow driver so I believe a colder plug may help.
I use Merlin Plugs and you may see best results from a 2006 or 2002.


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RE: OS .60 FP Bushed engine suddenly dies - 1/7/2013 4:04 PM   
rbarci


 

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Status: offline 		I'm having the same exact problem. And my plane was running last month fine and it starts happening from one week to another. The compression is very good. I think this carb is very hard to adjust. Is there any other can I use to replace it that has twin needles.

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RE: OS .60 FP Bushed engine suddenly dies - 1/7/2013 4:58 PM   
MJD



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quote:

ORIGINAL: rbarci

I'm having the same exact problem. And my plane was running last month fine and it starts happening from one week to another. The compression is very good. I think this carb is very hard to adjust. Is there any other can I use to replace it that has twin needles.


See post #9 above. Option.. Perry carb.

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RE: OS .60 FP Bushed engine suddenly dies - 1/7/2013 6:04 PM   
dennis



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Status: offline 		Sounds like it's loading up in the midrange. An airbleed carb is usually a smaller venturi size then usual for good fuel draw. Here is what I'd try first. Open the air bleed screw 2 turns and try it. If your bottom end has gone low then you are flooding out at midrange, this can be a normal problem no matter what type carb you have. Remember that air bleed carbs adjust the opposite of conventional 2 needle set ups. You also might have to change your fuel if the engie has really got some time on it. If it's got a scored liner then a fuel with a higher viscosity (oil content) will help. It doesn't sound fatal just irritating.

Dennis

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RE: OS .60 FP Bushed engine suddenly dies - 1/8/2013 1:39 AM   
josonalico


 

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Status: offline 		I suspect he latter.  Normally worn engines affect the idle and hot start first until it gets worse, then performance is worse in all catigories.


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RE: OS .60 FP Bushed engine suddenly dies - 1/9/2013 2:46 PM   
jaka


 

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Status: offline 		Hi!
It's not the carb!
The OS air bleed carb is bullet proof! If the engine suddenly dies something else is to blame!
Check all bolts! A loose screw can change how the engine runs!
Mount the tank right! I have said it many times before. It's vital that you mount the tank according to the Tank mounting rule" ...with the center of the tank inline with the carb intake oricfice when the plane sits horizontal! - And do use a two line system (Uni-Flow) for best results.
It's also vital that you set the engine correctly: That means always setting it a little on the rich side and doing it by ear...not anything else!!! The pinch metode is just not good enough!
Using the "correct tank size" is also vital, and mounting it in soft foam, so there is less vibration that can produce foaming inside the tank.
Using the correct fuel is also one of those things that produce a good or bad running engine; 5-10% nitro should be used in most engines and 18-20% oil.
The correct propeller size to use also plays a vital part. 10x6-12x4 for all .40 engines...for just taking one example.

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RE: OS .60 FP Bushed engine suddenly dies - 1/22/2013 1:57 PM   
rbarci


 

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Status: offline 		I finally discover the problem. When the problem starts, I had changed my glow plug for a new one (on the package) and for my lucky, it was with problem also. I just open a new one again, same brand and type and like a magic the engine starts working fine again.

Thanks for all.

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