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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/14/2012 7:57 AM   
bogbeagle


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KaP2011

I saw a news story back in the spring about a real estate agent in Colorado or somewhere that used a quad copter with a camera attached to shoot video of his listings. I thought it was a great idea but that was not the case with the reporter or the people he interviewed. They were all concerned that you could spy on people in their own homes. I believe if some of the people who's home you flew over knew about it they would report you to the police.




I'm a bit slow getting into this topic, but I have to reply to this particular post ... just to show you how screwed is the populace.

Last year, I was flying an MK quadcopter on my local sports field.

A middle-aged woman happened by, with her dog. She expressed an interest and I told her that the copter had a real-time video link ... showed her the pics on the little screen.

Instantly, her interest turned to alarm ... "Oh, but you could fly over my house and see what I'm doing." Hysteria wasn't far away, I could tell.

So, I said to her, "Actually, I'm doing this on behalf of the Humberside Police. I'm developing this equipment for them to use over built-up areas."

Well, it was instant calmness, on her part. I'll swear she heaved a huge sigh of relief.

As for me... face-palm.

Yes, by all means, you can look into my bedroom, if you are wearing a badge. That's the sort of person with whom we are dealing, chaps.

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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/14/2012 8:02 AM   
brandon429


 

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Status: offline 		Bob what i found interesting is how the majority of non rc types associate camera flying anything with the government as a first response, negatively, I've read more often than not. Where i am res publica would be incensed by the law using these. i'd like to fly my drones, they have patrols just like on the street. Fly a drone to fight crime all day long fine by me i don't think they will be in my window. I think we can all be sat tracked who cares. To me you can be a flyer and still have privacy boundaries

If i had my say the final ruling from the faa would be a complete freedom of drone work where size determines max altitude and you fly with alt restrictor chips as a rule. Unlimited lateral distance, but you only get 250 feet up to do it for ex
Pick a size that's agreed to be ground safe in a wreck, and keep it away from full craft.



Anyone who writes an article for a magazine or jumps on an anti-bandwagon regarding fpv needs to define size of craft under attack. Don't make some planes ok for neighborhood use then get all concerned when someone makes them autonomous. submit a list of acceptable planes for this application, i nominate the humble slow stick. You've all agreed the plantraco was universally acceptable through no contest, what's in between?

< Message edited by brandon429 -- 10/14/2012 10:52 AM >

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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/14/2012 10:52 AM   
flyinwalenda


 

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Status: online 		Why did it take you 3 pages in a thread you started to finally admit that what you did/are doing "might" not be safe?
That is what most of the posters here have been saying all along.  Your  comment  shown on your video of " I don't use the AMA as my insurance company so their views on flying sites don't apply" shows your disdain for their safety guidelines and rules that the majority of us uphold. 
That is the major point of contention here. What you did was not safe.......period and as stated by many; just because some others do it too still doesn't make it right. This loose cannon stance many are taking in regards to operating fpv could have a huge impact on everyone, not just those who fly fpv.
 I'm not against fpv ,I'm against anyone flying any type of aircraft recklessly without regard for others safety.


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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/14/2012 10:54 AM   
brandon429


 

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Status: offline 		Ok i read what you said

Now pls answer my two questions.

What size plane do you agree can be flown in this application

why is flying in a park, with people at the perimeter, ok by you. That's what the ama tells you to do. The lack of critical thinking casts a dark shadow on our hobby, if only geico had similar command over its audience.


If you will specifically answer those legit questions, we'll have something.

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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/14/2012 10:56 AM   
brandon429


 

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Status: offline 		I thought the flight was stable and well planned, not reckless.

< Message edited by brandon429 -- 10/14/2012 12:05 PM >

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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/14/2012 11:29 AM   
brandon429


 

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Status: offline 		Scale flyer has the respectable opinion against my mode since he doesn't park fly anything.
It took three pages of posts like yours walenda to get us this far.
The people who support park flying using safety examples are dangerously misled, no people were outside when i flew and you make subjective calls about how busy a park you should fly in. Since ama says they'll cover damages in a park of people, you just subject them all to the risk.

Its certainly not possible to support park flying and decry what i do as dangerous, but its a common perspective.

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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/14/2012 12:53 PM   
on_your_six


 

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Status: offline 		You keep saying that you are a ham... stop dragging that aspect into this... just because you are broadcasting on a frequency that you are entitled by license to use does not make any other aspect of this acceptable..

I too am a ham... I enjoy flying FPV, but I do not think having a ham license makes this acceptable or for that matter unacceptable. The two are not linked what so ever. You could, in fact be causing damage to both hobbies.

As we both know, it is very easy to get a tech license... can be done in a week. All it takes is the stroke of a pen from the FCC to take that frequency away from all of us.

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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/14/2012 1:18 PM   
Luchnia


 

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Status: offline 		I am somewhat on the fence on this one, which is not all that unusual for me. I have been around machinery and mechanical stuff all my life with great risks, so things like this bear little danger to me. Neither am I for or against from my thoughts to what I can tell. The risks I do believe are minimal if hardly any at all.

The biggest thing I see is a person's perceived privacy. Notice I placed this at a person's privacy level for the conversation. Where I do think there is an issue is how my conscience would play out if I did this. If for any reason any aspect of what we do in RC becomes a possibility of crossing a line we may be best putting more thought into it.

Please don't read more into this as there must be a baseline set for thinking this out properly. There are those of us that are more risk takers than others so that adds some variables into the baseline and then we must have rule makers because we need governing. I guess I am one of those guys that follows more along the lines of when in doubt think some more about it and make sure you have all the angles before making the choice.

Is it safe? I would think it is about as safe as you can get when comparing to all the other RC planes I have seen fly and get away from folks. I have seen RC planes of decent size just fly off into the sunset. Fortuneatly to never see again and yet in some cases they were found. Can you imagine had those hit someone, hit a car windsheild, or fell into a crowd of people? Yes, they were flown from an AMA RC club!

I don't know anything about your town, but I wonder since it is legal to fly the way you are what would be the harm in letting folks know your "route" and that you will be doing such flying and making them aware that you really cannot see anything down low that would cause any privacy issues? Is that out of bounds? It certainly would be respectful and courteous and if someone said "No" then you could alter your route to accomodate and that would give them the choice?

On a side note, it would not bother me for a park flyer to fly over my house at all - day or night. I think privacy is a sensitive issue now and that changes the game somewhat. I really don't care as long as there is nothing that I deem a privacy invasion. When I am absolutely sure that a privacy invasion has occurred then I would take the park flyer out by whatever means I could find to do so



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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/14/2012 2:12 PM   
804


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Luchnia

I am somewhat on the fence on this one, which is not all that unusual for me. I have been around machinery and mechanical stuff all my life with great risks, so things like this bear little danger to me. Neither am I for or against from my thoughts to what I can tell. The risks I do believe are minimal if hardly any at all.

The biggest thing I see is a person's perceived privacy. Notice I placed this at a person's privacy level for the conversation. Where I do think there is an issue is how my conscience would play out if I did this. If for any reason any aspect of what we do in RC becomes a possibility of crossing a line we may be best putting more thought into it.

Please don't read more into this as there must be a baseline set for thinking this out properly. There are those of us that are more risk takers than others so that adds some variables into the baseline and then we must have rule makers because we need governing. I guess I am one of those guys that follows more along the lines of when in doubt think some more about it and make sure you have all the angles before making the choice.

Is it safe? I would think it is about as safe as you can get when comparing to all the other RC planes I have seen fly and get away from folks. I have seen RC planes of decent size just fly off into the sunset. Fortuneatly to never see again and yet in some cases they were found. Can you imagine had those hit someone, hit a car windsheild, or fell into a crowd of people? Yes, they were flown from an AMA RC club!

I don't know anything about your town, but I wonder since it is legal to fly the way you are what would be the harm in letting folks know your ''route'' and that you will be doing such flying and making them aware that you really cannot see anything down low that would cause any privacy issues? Is that out of bounds? It certainly would be respectful and courteous and if someone said ''No'' then you could alter your route to accomodate and that would give them the choice?

On a side note, it would not bother me for a park flyer to fly over my house at all - day or night. I think privacy is a sensitive issue now and that changes the game somewhat. I really don't care as long as there is nothing that I deem a privacy invasion. When I am absolutely sure that a privacy invasion has occurred then I would take the park flyer out by whatever means I could find to do so



Excellent post, Luchnia.
As I was reading thru this thread, I was gathering my thoughts to make a reply and came to yours and
you have said it for me.

Re your last paragraph:
I live near a couple of airports, and have aircraft of all types flying over our house all the time.
No matter how low they fly, and we have ultralights and para planes fly over pretty low, I always find myself wishing I was up there with them.
But, the idea of someone flying any kind of un-manned craft, filming or no, over my house would, I think, bring out the caveman in me
and cause me to want to grab my 12 gage splattermatic.
I know that's probably not rational, but, there it is.

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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/14/2012 2:12 PM   
flyinwalenda


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Luchnia



Is it safe? I would think it is about as safe as you can get when comparing to all the other RC planes I have seen fly and get away from folks. I have seen RC planes of decent size just fly off into the sunset. Fortuneatly to never see again and yet in some cases they were found. Can you imagine had those hit someone, hit a car windsheild, or fell into a crowd of people? Yes, they were flown from an AMA RC club!






Bit of apples& oranges here. I don't know of any flying club fields where the normal patterns take pilots/planes over towns,houses,yards,roads, etc. while they are flying normally.  Yes planes do go out of control and sometimes do wander off the normal flight area and into populated areas but typically the mishaps are within the flying field areas. This and similar flights start,continue, and end flying over towns, houses, yards,roads.
Why put others and yourself at risk like this at all? Nobody is that good or that lucky.



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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/14/2012 3:20 PM   
jester_s1


 

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Status: offline 		Since you directed the question directly to me, I'll give you my answer. I think that any flying over people's houses with any RC plane is out of line. Not because it's dangerous, but because it's bad PR. You've made it clear that you don't consider PR to be your responsibility, which is typical for the FPV crowd. To try and change your mind, I'll point out that this hobby has existed for nearly 100 years (aeromodeling) in various forms and with numerous technological advancements that have resulted in paradigm shifts. Through it all, we have done what amounts to a fairly dangerous activity with almost zero government regulation. I can't think of many other hobbies that can say that- the shooting sports, racing of all kinds, boating and fishing, hunting, and even skateboarding have brought either federal or local regulations upon themselves over the years. We have not, and a large reason for that is the fact that there has always been an attitude of self-regulation and staying conscious of how we appear to people. The culture of the hobby is starting to change from a community mindset to an individual mindset, and the individual only cares about what he wants to do today. It's a short sighted way to think that has and will continue to create PR problems for the hobby. The AMA is working to advocate for the hobby, for your rights to keep enjoying it. I assume you aren't contributing anything to that, so I'm going to ask you to at least not make thing harder by creating PR troubles that make people think that RC'ers are all buzzing their chimney's in the middle of the night.

As for showing you places where RC flying is not allowed, you already said you are sure that there are such places. There's no need for me to prove something to you that you are already sure of.

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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/14/2012 5:06 PM   
topspin


 

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Status: offline 		I have seen model airplanes crash for just about every reason you can think of and that was in day light. The idea of a camera doesn't bother me but the idea of controlling a model aircraft out of visual range, at night, using on a single camera with no redundancy of the control systems or the video link does bother me. You could easily lose control and crash. The size and weight of the airplane are not really a factor in how much damage it could. It could run harlessly into a fence or crash into a garage full of gasoline cans and the Lipo could start a fire. Regardless of whether or not it is legal or not does not mean it isn't a stupid and irresponsible thing to do. Most adults have better sense but some don't.

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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/14/2012 5:16 PM   
on_your_six


 

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Status: offline 		Oh and one other thing... you are required to broadcast your call sign/number.

§97.119 Station identification.
(a) Each amateur station, except a space station or telecommand station, must transmit its assigned call sign on its transmitting channel at the end of each communication, and at least every ten minutes during a communication, for the purpose of clearly making the source of the transmissions from the station known to those receiving the transmissions. No station may transmit unidentified communications or signals, or transmit as the station call sign, any call sign not authorized to the station.

This is clearly not being done, so you are violating rules and regulations.

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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/14/2012 5:21 PM   
brandon429


 

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Status: offline 		Luchnia wrote very well. All of you skipped the two questions again



Six, I've stated why i included being a ham, you skipped reading that. If i wasn't, that will be included in the list of illegalities.

Walenda, you skip points and avoid my comparisons. The ama's stance on park flying, which tells you and jester what you can and can't do, says you can take a non rc public park and make it one. There's every chance your plane could veer sideways into someone. I fly when less or no people are out.


Please include in privacy assessments going forward the required comparison to google earth, and if you think the fpv cam thing is a double standard.

People need to include in their responses what size plane is allowed for these flights, you guys are breaking ama code when you fly a parkzone vapor in your yard, but is that sensible? Its amazing those points will continue to be skipped.

Guess what my position is on shooting civilian uavs down

Go for it, i won't be mad, really. Its your right fully.

Again I'm reading from people who refuse to address it that my midnight flight over zero people its bad but your daily flights with people around you in a park is good, your double standards are silly.

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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/14/2012 5:30 PM   
mr_matt



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Status: offline 		I drive NEXT to a sidewalk everyday, I don't drive ON the sidewalk.

Flying adjacent to people with proper setbacks is proven safe. Flying over people is not safe.

I reject you argument that it is ever OK to fly over someone's house without permission. Any size plane, camera or no.

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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/14/2012 5:31 PM   
brandon429


 

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Status: offline 		Matt at least you hit one of two points thanks.

What about google earth, and what i can see in your back yard with it

If flying to the side of people is safe to you then we are at an impasse. How many people did i fly over as you say?
I respect the lines you've drawn between to the side of and directly over, its a fair opinion.
Was a pz vapor ok in your opinion to fly over your house, without a camera?

< Message edited by brandon429 -- 10/14/2012 5:54 PM >

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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/14/2012 5:59 PM   
mr_matt



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Status: offline 		Here is what you seem to be missing. It is the perception.

Guy flies FPV all around the statue of liberty in NYC. Common man thinks "if that is not illegal it ought to be."

Same thing here. Common sense. A lot of people are not going to like you flying over their house and when they legally put a stop to it, I probably won't be able to fly in my yard at all.

I personally don't care about Google earth one way or the other. Me, I like to fly toy airplanes so I will stick to that. But if I was seriously invested in fpv I would definitely take the public's concern about privacy seriously. It would be a huge nationwide battle to stop Google, but in any particular locale it might take one or two local beaurocrats 2 minutes to make model airplanes illegal to fly anywhere outside of your driveway.

If you are truly not a troll then think about the consequences of your actions. If you are a troll shame on me for wasting so much time fruitlessly typing.

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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/14/2012 6:17 PM   
brandon429


 

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Status: offline 		My view is flying to the side of people is dangerous and what I do isn't, we disagree, and that makes nobody a troll. But these are at least sensible disagreements compared to ridiculous ones that comprise the bulk of the thread.

In the very least you defined your stance away from the initial groupthink crowd as primarily against the camera, but swayed by weight and what you deem 'toy' planes as ok to fly from a house. By your standards there is an acceptable weight to fly over houses and I'm above it. Autonomous, non cam flight is okay as long as its a retrofitted toy. We started out by thinking all flights over houses was bad. Everyone has this same tradeoff level, but they won't stay on point. Its easy to give up on privacy expectations because google earth is such a big company, much easier to shift focus to what an individual does in low res I expect more of that line of thought to come

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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/14/2012 6:23 PM   
on_your_six


 

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Status: offline 		You said that everything was legal... I just pointed out an aspect ... call sign that was not.. desperately searching for a rule???? I don't think so... I am a ham... I happen to know that rule by heart because I have to comply with every transmission.

Weight is not the only consideration... the speed is also important... the kinetic energy of a 1/2 pound plane hitting something at 60mph is considerable. Yes I agree, most small foamies will not cause much damage.

Obviously, we can't tell you anything... the laws are lagging the technology in this area, so just because a law does not exist specifically prohibiting your actions does not, by default make it legal. If nothing else, you should want to keep from inflaming the issue before rules are issued next July by keeping your videos off the internet and providing evidence against the things we enjoy.

You say that your call sign is on the propeller... in all the frames I looked at, I could not determine the call sign. I guess that is good for you.

Just because you can, does not mean you should. Signing off.

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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/14/2012 6:34 PM   
topspin


 

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On your six, see what i mean? Desperately trying to find something illegal.

Two questions Sherlock:

Does my vid look edited to you in any way?

What is the length of the video? What is the interval time between callsign xmission?

Keep thinking!

I like how you said don't talk about ham and then use it as an argument.

Name one time where you saw my propeller not spinning, in this edit.

Guess what's written on back of propeller?
Facing the camera? A little code that tells you where i live so you can come steal all my stereo equipment

I'm so actually not required to put that in a YouTube video.
Another assumption gone down the drain, you must be having beers with the no spotter guy. Let me guess, you think park flying during the day is safer because you were told it was?



So please tell us what frequencies you use for;

1. Control of the plane and,
2. for the video link.

Nowhere in your video did you identify using an amateur callsign. The rule is at the end of transmission regardless of length, but I want to hear how you justify it cause I can't see any way you operated within the rules.

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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/14/2012 6:38 PM   
brandon429


 

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Status: offline 		Topspin out of fear of looking further uninformed please read page 3 again for that exact point. You didn't watch the vid, freqs were the opening scroll, omg


Move from one point to another when the original doesn't stick eh six

since you made a big leap on the callsign thing, what leap might we be making now that's already been covered...legality is only debatable to the uninformed, you can harp on that more if you want you just won't be right.

You have the same weight issues as Matt. You would allow an fpv toy plane in your neighborhood, but you don't think a slowstick is a toy and I do.

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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/14/2012 7:35 PM   
mr_matt



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Status: offline 		You are all over the place, for someone who keeps droning on about staying on point.

I don't think flying over someone else's house is EVER OK at ANY weight. If I said something to the contrary I don't remember doing it.

So the safe way to enjoy model airplanes is tell everyone to stay indoors then fly over their house? Is that what you really think?

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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/14/2012 7:36 PM   
chris923


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mr_matt

You are all over the place, for someone who keeps droning on about staying on point.

I don't think flying over someone else's house is EVER OK at ANY weight. If I said something to the contrary I don't remember doing it.

So the safe way to enjoy model airplanes is tell everyone to stay indoors then fly over their house? Is that what you really think?



+1

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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/14/2012 8:53 PM   
JollyPopper



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Status: offline 		Not taking sides here because I don't care one way or another, but I have read this whole thread and my impression is that the OP is basing his whole argument on his belief that what he did is technically legal and he will persist on doing it and defending it no matter how many folks disagree. So my question is: is this an activity the he really enjoys above all other aspects of RC flying or is he commiting a questionable act in an effort to rub it in everyone's face who disagree with it. "I'm legal so the heck with all you folks who don't like it."


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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/14/2012 9:25 PM   
mr_matt



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quote:

ORIGINAL: brandon429

Matt is still on point, initially he said yes to toy planes now we're revising. Unless he strictly flies them at AMA sanctioned fields out of town. If you do it from your yard, you are a double standard, weight issue guy, but not against house flying




I never said "yes" to anything. I fly in in city/federal sanctioned fields or in my driveway or yard. I don't fly over anyone's house. Especially beyond line of site.


quote:

ORIGINAL: brandon429

Matt, for the 50the time I think AMA compliant park flyers are double standard non thinkers, that's where I stand. For them to think their plane can't veer off sideways is stupid. I fly when nobody is out, zero, that's the difference its been well covered



Who said a plane can't veer off sideways? How does that make it OK to fly over peoples houses? Non sequitur.

quote:

ORIGINAL: brandon429
Matt won't actually delve into this, just flip flop a little.


I demand that you point out a flip flop immediately, or retract this statement. Do it before you do anything else. I demand it! lol In my book flying over houses is never OK. I don't want you flying over anyone else that can get upset and call the authorities or the FAA (much less post a YouTube video).


quote:

ORIGINAL: brandon429

Matt we know you are clear about the park flying part, its been proven safe to you, good. The only parts not explained was your reasoning on the vapor or where you actually fly


Flying over people's heads or houses is not good with any model (annoying, unsafe, disrespectful take your pick). I fly in a city park and a federal park. I sometimes fly indoors or in my driveway or in the cul de sac. If I annoy my neighbors I can assume they will try to stop me so I do my best not to annoy my neighbors. Chalk that up to maturity and common sense.


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Matt

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