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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/15/2012 12:05 PM

Luchnia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bogbeagle

I think that the problem which underlies many of these threads is the political system ... and the idea of ''collective punishment''. Many of you seem to fear that a mistake on Brandon's part might lead to your being punished. I suppose that is true .... but it shouldn't be that way.

Brandon is responsible for his flying. Brandon should be the only one who faces any consequences for his actions. Why should any of you be punished for his mistakes? Clearly, you shouldn't; yet you fully accept that you might be.

Although I am really not on either side of this fence. I am just observing and occasionally drop a post or two. I do want to respond to the individual accountability. I do see the problem dealing with collective punishment. Here is the US since we have scum bags running this social order we have found that any infraction of anything causes the just folks much suffering and pain. We have seen it time and time again. Even the smallest of matters causes massive changes in our country.

An example was many years ago a guy decided to pick up his push mower and trim his hedges thus cutting off his fingers. Well guess what we have now? Safety clutches on all push mowers. Granted maybe push mowers needed more safety measures and I will give that, but you simply should not make the stupidness of one person weigh on everyone else, but it does in the US. Now if I want a push mower without the extra cost of the safety clutch I cannot get one. It becomes everyone's problem. I could go on and on with this type of idiotic stuff/laws.

If one ignorant dolt out there does something in the RC world, yes it can have adverse affects on down the line. Most of us in the good old USA know that and from most of the folks I have talked to this is of great concern. We don't like it and yes it should be the problem of the individual yet it becomes everyone else's problem. Someone does something stupid, gets hurt then sues everyone they can think of!

You are probably right in the word "fear" as it may have some weight here, although I would probably say it is more of a concern than fear. There are so many rules and regulations now that we can hardly keep up with them. How shall we stand many more?

On another note concerning the safety of the park flyer. I think the weight is minimal and I was wondering. If it is so dangerous, then would not a large bird, like a crow or hawk, limb off a tree, rock flying from lawn mower, etc. do more damage than a park flyer with a camera? I think folks are stretching a bit with the danger aspect of this

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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/15/2012 12:52 PM

804

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bogbeagle

In England, our equivalent of the AMA is the BMFA. The FPV crowd found it necessary to form their own ''body'' ... they now conduct their own liaison with the CAA. Quite simply, this was necessary because of the negative attitudes which prevailed in the BMFA.

The efforts of the FPV crowd have directly led to amendments in the Air Navigation Order ... a loosening of the reins, so to speak.

I suppose that arguments, such as the one in this thread, are pretty typical of any sporting endeavour. It was much the same when large models made their appearance ... a separate representative body had to break away from the BMFA, because the prevailing attitudes were stifling. (similar-ish story for helis and electrics)

Is there a separate ''body'' for the FPV crowd in America?

Our BMFA has no regulatory powers, whatsoever. It is just a ''big model club'', which raises revenue from annual fees and from brokering insurance. It has morphed into ''just another lobbying group'', I suppose. Is your AMA like that?

I think that the problem which underlies many of these threads is the political system ... and the idea of ''collective punishment''. Many of you seem to fear that a mistake on Brandon's part might lead to your being punished. I suppose that is true .... but it shouldn't be that way.

Brandon is responsible for his flying. Brandon should be the only one who faces any consequences for his actions. Why should any of you be punished for his mistakes? Clearly, you shouldn't; yet you fully accept that you might be.

They used to do this at school, do you remember? ''If the guilty boy doesn't own up, you'll all stay for detention.'' It was a great way of turning classmates into enemies.

I think there are some in the FPV community trying to form an org. But it seems there is infighting among them as to how "liberal" or "conservative" the regs. need to be to comply with FAA. Another problem is the new
FAA regs. which have been delayed numerous times, and by law, can't be discussed by them in public until the regs. are actually published.

For an example of "punish the many for the sins of the few", look no farther than U.K.'s own gun laws, or Canada's, or Australia"s, or...

Yeah, it's wrong, but it happens.

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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/15/2012 2:39 PM

topspin

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quote:

So please tell us what frequencies you use for;

1. Control of the plane and,
2. for the video link.

Nowhere in your video did you identify using an amateur callsign. The rule is at the end of transmission regardless of length, but I want to hear how you justify it cause I can't see any way you operated within the rules.

quote:

ORIGINAL: brandon429

So topspin, I have to upload a non edited version to YouTube? What if I show you what I want you to see, and leave you making huge leaps for all the rest? We couldn't get you to watch a full 4mins, ten would lose you totally.

Wanted to feature takeoff and landing mainly. I never have to post callsign on YouTube. List your take on google earth and why you think park flying with people around the perimeter fine, there is nothing left to discuss of the supposed non issue of ham that's really quite an issue in hindsight huh? Glad I called that one page one, got it out of the way early only to be told it doesn't matter then fervently revisited on page 4
There's no predictability here or anything.
Each of you has weight restrictions, not house flying restrictions, you will end up self assessing pretty soon but only after a lot more not staying on point

Why don't you just answer the question?

< Message edited by topspin -- 10/16/2012 4:29 AM >

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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/15/2012 4:48 PM

RCKen

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Ok guys, I am going to step in here for a moment. I have had to clean up this thread. Let me put on thing straight here.... When a thread is started on RCU is becomes the property of RCU and anybody that posts in that thread will follow the RCU Community Rules, including the person that started that thread. Threads are not the "property" of those that started and they do not get to dictate the rules for anybody that wants to post in that thread. EVERYBODY that post in the thread will follow RCU's rules, plain and simple. Those that don't will be subject to Administrative actions that can range from simply having your post removed up to the member being banned from RCU (although that is an extreme example and won't happen just from a bad post in a thread, but you get my point).

Now I have gone through this thread and have removed posts with member attacking each other, posts antagonizing other members, off topic posts, and others for various reason. Although it's against my best judgement I am going to leave this thread open. But I will warn all those participating that the discussion needs to be done according the RCU Community Rules. If it can't follow them I will close it down.

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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/15/2012 6:40 PM

JollyPopper

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brandon, may I ask you a direct question? Again, I have no pre-conceived notions as to whether this action you have performed is right or wrong. I am simply trying to determine where you are coming from. Are they any rules/laws/directives from any governing bodies stating that flying fpv at night from your garage over unsuspecting people is legal or are you simply insisting that it is legal because there are no rules saying that it is illegal?

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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/15/2012 7:41 PM

mr_matt

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quote:

ORIGINAL: brandon429
Its certainly not possible to support park flying and decry what i do as dangerous, but its a common perspective.

Apparently it_is_possible, if 5 pages of responses are any indicator.

BTW I don't see it as particularly dangerous, but rather provocative. You could have done your flight and no one would be the wiser, but you had to post to YouTube....... not enough traction there? Post a link to RCUniverse.

BTW if you would respect somone's wishes if they did not want you flying over their house why not ask everyone you fly over for permission first?

Problem solved and no controversy?

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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/15/2012 8:28 PM

brandon429

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Matt I follow google earth's allowance for yard filming. If they don't ask, why should I? Just because someone chooses to allow them to work because they are a big company that doesn't make sense to me regarding my tiny plane and its low res cam.

Im really glad civility has been reinstated this will go much better.

We need to discuss this, it happens all the time across the globe. If not seeing it on youtube is better I can understand but that doesn't make it a non issue.

Jolly thanks for asking in that manner, it is completely legal and fun/convenient and I wanted to post all the details about how to make it legal and how to do it.

I would take from the masses a much smaller plane would make it easier to digest, I believe that. which is where all the pz vapor ideas comes into play. that can, and is being done, but never with wind lol

Regarding the intended discussion of 2 or 3 major points that was continually brought up to discourage some of the harping we've seen, but now that we're back in line I think any discussion about fpv in parks/urban areas is open to discourse.

So I do not do this to rile people, only the web people know its happening and the occasional next door neighbor who may be my spotter for a 2k alt run.

I do this because its ultra convenient and its a result of the hard working getting legally and technically prepared to have this advantage. Thats the only reason why

In my years of flight and flight analysis and online skullduggery Ive arrived at the example that a legit flying park is one block from me, I flew over it but with the lights off you can't tell, its a black space near my casa, and any flying in that park subjects the houses to the same contact potential as actually flying over it or any other house.

You can't fly over certain govenment installations, federal installations etc, but in TX no city has a rule against filming from the air unless you make profit off it. Correct me if someone finds links otherwise.

The laws that allow park flying are what allow me to fly over parks on a mile journey, night or day has no change either way when you study the laws that allow it.

The is no law for rc use, at all, when its not for profit.

In 1981 ish we were given a recommendation from the FAA called ac 9157 to set some guidance, and we self regulate the rest. FAA will change that soon, we don't know what the change will be. Part of the arguments against fpv leave out blatant violations of this recommendation in standard glider soaring that most decryers of FPV have done before, so we each have to make decisions about whats prudent when breaking the recommendations, each of us do it, most unknowingly. Those who never break the recommendation and never fly in a park are in a unique position of full compliance.

Its very very important to know however that park flying and what I do are the exact same, so laws changing one will change the other. Those laws will be made not because of youtube vids, even though we think that will make a difference. FAA plans for worst case scenarios regardless of what people upload.

My true intent is that if Im in a park that encompasses lets say one square city block, flying right in the middle, in what we refer to as ama compliance, the slow stick could lose signal and veer off laterally making the contact the exact same as already flying over the houses. And in our lively debate, I went ahead and included further self justification of this art bty reminding those I can't see any detail in your yards at night, and that no people are out when I fly, and that I found it a double standard in the links Matt posted about ama park flying that it doesnt say to only fly when there are zero people in the park or in the operable worst case scenario range of the craft. If it said that, Id be in the wrong.

But the ama allows for a subjective evaluation of people and property around the flying field...and thats what I provide for my flights.

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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/15/2012 8:35 PM

brandon429

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There are actually laws that you must fulfill to fly FPV, getting the license, I wanted convenience that surpasses that of park flying. In other words I had a goal, researched what it takes to do it legally, and did that.

There is no way to abstract what I do with park flying around people in my mind and in my risk analysis method, thats why the conversation keeps going back there. For someone to have concern with what I do, and then go ama compliant and set up in a park, where at 400ft they can see your yard too, plus women and children are combing the perimeter either as spectators or the totally uninformed, simply is a double standard.

What laws allow them to do that? Why would they do it since no law actually permits it? Because they want to fly a small plane in a convenient manner.

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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/15/2012 8:44 PM 1 votes

eddieC

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Let's not forget we are surveilled in most cities and in stores, parking garages, airport terminals, etc., and no one complains then about privacy issues. A corporation should have no more right to video than an individual.

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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/15/2012 8:53 PM

mr_matt

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quote:

ORIGINAL: brandon429

There is no way to abstract what I do with park flying around people in my mind......

You have made that_very_clear. I can't make it any simpler......in the first scenario, you are flying over the ground, in the other scenario you are flying over houses and other private property without permission. I agree, in_your_mind these must be the same.

To me, whether you are filming is a non issue, when Google takes pictures I am pretty sure they are operating within FAA regulations. I have not seen a park zone cub with "Google" plastered on the side buzzing over my house.

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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/15/2012 8:58 PM

brandon429

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To me, whether you are filming is a non issue, when Google takes pictures I am pretty sure they are operating within FAA regulations
Matt then to rectify your stance all you need to do is check to see if Im FAA compliant, dont take my word for it...thats your qualification for google. My nearest airport is exactly 11 miles. Select any city in TX and run the analysis.

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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/15/2012 9:09 PM

eddieC

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Google doesn't need FAA approval to take their hi-res photos from space. They get away with a lot because of the lack of regulation and their size, not just in the mapping regime.

One's property (in the USA) does not include the airspace overhead.

We fly at a local park occasionally, the cops come by and watch. The biggest danger is the duffers using it as a driving range. They've nearly hit us, people with their kids and pets, etc. We try to all get along...

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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/15/2012 9:51 PM

mr_matt

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quote:

ORIGINAL: brandon429

To me, whether you are filming is a non issue, when Google takes pictures I am pretty sure they are operating within FAA regulations
Matt then to rectify your stance all you need to do is check to see if Im FAA compliant, dont take my word for it...thats your qualification for google. My nearest airport is exactly 11 miles. Select any city in TX and run the analysis.

For the 100th time I don't give a rip about Google or your camera, other than posting it on YouTube. I see full size planes flying over my house all of the time as do my neighbors, and I am pretty sure no one is calling the sheriff to get Delta 512 to stop flying over their house! Anyway I never said anything you did was illegal so you have made another mental leap.

I notice you did not comment on my explanation of the difference between flying in a park versus flying over someone's house...

Better tighten your arguments up, I am loosing interest fast!

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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/15/2012 9:52 PM

harve28

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Don't let them get to you brandon i thought it was great! I have seen people do more damage with a football or baseball in my neighborhood than you could of done with a slow stick, i mean come on i could see this being a big deal if this were a .40 size nitro but a slow stick. Give me a break. Its people like this that run people out of this hobby!!

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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/15/2012 10:21 PM

brandon429

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Thanks man
Harve Im about to start on a double parkzone ember, where I buy two, join the wings together to get double length (slightly better wind shear penetration) and double up the drive motors...that will make everyone love urban fpv instantly

except the anti goog earth crew

Chris Im fightin' a few fronts here lol, just restate what you meant I may have missed it. Ill respond

Anyone i missed questions about pls repost as a new question I'll see it better not buried the excess.

So far, can we all agree my parkzone ember project coming up will meet all the requirements for leaving the park? I'll be flying under the auspices of back yard flyer, but not necessarily my back yard. Fwd all filming concerns to google

< Message edited by brandon429 -- 10/15/2012 11:57 PM >

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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/15/2012 11:31 PM

Luchnia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eddieC

Let's not forget we are surveilled in most cities and in stores, parking garages, airport terminals, etc., and no one complains then about privacy issues. A corporation should have no more right to video than an individual.

No doubt about that at all. Much more than folks realize they are looked upon daily. Most just are not aware. I suppose that is why a park flyer doesn't bother me much. I think the concept of FPVs is pretty interesting and should open doors for all sorts of very neat technology as well.

There is a guy in one of our clubs that is really getting into it now. I was even thinking how this could branch over into other areas. Take for instance how cattle people work with their cattle with full scale choppers, doing spotting, checking fences, etc.. It makes me think that something like this on a larger scale could save them hundreds of thousands of dollars. The sky is the limit (pun intended).

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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/16/2012 12:30 AM

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So, brandon, your answer to my question is that there is no law regulating RC flying if it's not for profit?

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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/16/2012 12:51 AM

brandon429

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There are only laws are on federal airspace around airports.

And any locals that may apply, like matts area, but not mine.
Fcc has requirements, the ham, since our vid tx's aren't part 15 compliant gear

Any local DA can charge you with anything they want, pub nuisance etc
being reckless etc but that doesn't mean its been tested in court with rc

< Message edited by brandon429 -- 10/16/2012 4:34 AM >

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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/16/2012 1:02 AM

JollyPopper

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So to expand that line of reasoning, I am perfectly right (legal) in doing anything I feel like doing so long as there are no laws specifically prohibiting that particular act?

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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/16/2012 1:13 AM

brandon429

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I see where we are going and I like it

But case by case only

what cha going to do

Here's one of your poss scenarios...I live about two hours from the largest nuc facility in tx

there are no fpv signs around it, no filming signs

should we fpv it right? My answer is simply walk up there and ask em if its cool, then get that in writing, then shield your plane in some type of reflective material like tin foil lol it will either destroy or totally amplify your signal (s)

But to be practical in this venture, remember what I do is allowed by my extension of -park flying-, its totally tied to that. My risk level for my kind of flight is houses and cars, never people, park flyers endanger the people. My extension is that all park flying w foamies puts houses and cars in the same risk, Im actually one up better than a park flyer.

Park flying is a misnomer, the park isn't in the air. Its just a justification by the ama for something they'll pay for if your subjective evaluations line up with theirs and the attitudes of the day/minute/sec

same would go for a daycare playground w little kids out front, should you fly that? Nope. Can you, yes. totally, and no one can do a damn thing that you filmed their kids.

But if the kids were in the park unknowingly, youre set!!!

see where Im going>

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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/16/2012 1:27 AM

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I think the idea of flying fPV at night is fun and neat...

but we must remember our responsibility to our hobby and the community and the possible repercussions that may come.

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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/16/2012 1:33 AM

brandon429

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Fair statement for sure.

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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/16/2012 1:38 AM

mr_matt

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quote:

ORIGINAL: brandon429

But to be practical in this venture, remember what I do is allowed by my extension of -park flying-, its totally tied to that. My risk level for my kind of flight is houses and cars, never people, park flyers endanger the people. My extension is that all park flying w foamies puts houses and cars in the same risk, Im actually one up better than a park flyer.

Yes I know......in order for your rationalization to work, you have to equate flying over uninhabited ground with flying over inhabited, private property. I can see the difference, you can't.

My question is, why do you even care what anyone does in a park, whether it is legal or not, condoned/sanctioned by the AMA or not? Why do you care?

Do you need to rationalize that this activity is equivalent to some other sanctioned or condoned activity? You don't seem to care what the majority of your peers think on here, so why do you care what the AMA thinks with regard to park flying in the first place?

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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/16/2012 1:45 AM

brandon429

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The initial hesitations were of danger and then no ama compliance, thats why.
But you'll change tune right when my ember is done, it will weight maybe 40 grams. Then theres no safety issue, only a filming issue for those who hate google earth.
With my ember, all house flying is fully safe and 100% of people agree to that just maybe not the filming part.

in case we keep missing the fourth post on this soon to be giant thread

No, that was not cool. That was stupid and irresponsible and likely illegal (depending on the local regulations). It's guys like this that have the AMA

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RE: garage launch slowstick 12am - 10/16/2012 2:07 AM

brandon429

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Matt in all fairness you still own me an answer and a link

a link to your city ordinance that says rc foamies can't be flown anywhere in your city because of the supposed actions of a lawyer or something from page 3 or 4, and an explanation as to why you said you wouldn't allow two kids playing with a parkzone vapor to fly over your house and possibly crash directly into your living room or car window.

I welcome the activity, if they crashed in my trees I already have special fishing pole stacks to help get them down. all my mrc choppers wind up there lol

My block already knows Im the rc guy I wouldn't have to ask permission to fly over them. For ten years its been nothing but planes and emaxxes buzzing the alleys, sometimes with my ground based rock crawler I'll happen upon them on the sidewalks while they are dog walking and Im fpv'ing from the living room. They know to bend down and waive in the camera. Sometimes they even pick up the crawler, look at it, then put it back down.

Yes I drive rc on public sidewalks, here we go again. Its a losi mrc crawler, if I lose signal, I'll crawl up your leg out of control at .0000000002 miles per hour, clear your turtles and chihuahuas out of the way!

Also, here's an undershot of the flyer wing

200 led's from gorilla bobs rc. To say this looks like a green and red cannon of light from the sky is a total understatement. Out at the lake we enjoy low level flights right across the lake with the led's reflecting up off the water, its stunning.

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All Forums >> Radios, Batteries, Clubhouse and more >> The Clubhouse >> RE: garage launch slowstick 12am
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