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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/6/2012 2:50 PM   
do335a


 

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Status: offline 		As long as people think ARF construction quality is good and as long as there are apologists for this stuff and as long as people keep accepting it, that's exactly what you'll get.

I hear it constantly - no problem with an ARF, all you need to do is rebuild the landing gear, take it all apart and glue all the pieces that have not glue, fill the gaps where parts are supposed to make contact but don't, replace all the broken internal pieces and then recover the plane.

Oh, and then, it's the purchaser's responsibility to do all this stuff to be certain that the blasted thing does not fall apart in the air and cause catostrophic damage.

Yes, sir, great products, these ARFs. And the rationalization is that the cost is justified since you are paying someone else to build your kit for you. Not exactly so. Some slob who could care less gets pennies to put it together. The rest goes to advertising, shipping, snazzy packaging (for those who are not aware, that's marketing, not selling which is a different kettle of fish), shipping costs, mark up and all that other stuff that goes into bringing the thing to you and promoting it to others.

Well, I have a question for you guys.

Would you accept a new automobile which you purchase and then need to ensure that the engine is properly assembled, that the wheels won't fall off as soon as you roll off the vendor's lot, that the paint won't come off with the first wash and so on? Not likely. And you paid someone to assemble that too. So why be an apologist for this ARF garbage?

Sure, an ARF could be built without those issues. However, the cost to you as the end user would be much higher. Then there would be tons of whining about that cost. However, go buy a scratch or kit built plane by a competent modeler or builder which does not have the ARF problems and everyone thinks it's worth nothing and much less than the cost of the kit alone, never mind the glue, the covering, the other necessary bits and pieces and the skilled builder's expertise and time. However, if it's a junk assembly, I will be first to say don't buy it. However, I do not advocate that you Just run to the nearsst ARF junk assembly and get that.

Whine, whine whine. ARFs are what they are. Kits and scratch builds are what they are. My choice is the latter. To me, it's worth my time to ensure that the plane is properly built and does not need otherwise needlessly wasted time and money correcting errors that were built into it initially for my "convenience".

Everyone in the factory who assembles and everyone who retails an ARF just as everyone who buys it knows that the landing gear will fail. Well, that's just wonderful. Why not make it right in the first place? Oh, I just remembered, I already answered that. Cost/profit and why bother if everyone will accept junk? No need.

That 1/3 size H9 CAP 232 which I had was just a house of cards an in retrospect nowhere near the $1,000+ that it cost just for the airframe. Suckered once. Never again.

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/6/2012 2:52 PM   
scale only 4 me



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Status: offline 		Steve, you're right, but I've personally seen a few planes just come a part in my own club. Most recently a redwing mx that lucky for the owner noticed the carbon fiber wing tube had cracked,, a little pressure and he broke it in half in his hands, lucky it didn't break in the air. Another friend had a wing tube sleeve just separated from the wing on a 72" 3DHS extra 300, plane totalled. I bought a 50cc size Goldwing Pitts from that same guy that needed wing repair after only a few flights. Problem documented here. http://youtu.be/VhDOZtHeoCE this was a $600 + shipping airplane

Point is and why I can relate to the OP,, It's just hard to drop down big money and not be sure you're not going to get a lemon, when you build it yourself, you have no one else to blame or cry to

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/6/2012 3:36 PM   
TexasSkyPilot



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Status: offline 		Wow, clearly some of these posters have an agenda here to slam ARFs.

ARFs and I tell people this ARE A GOOD START. You pay more than a stick kit, because it's more than a stick kit.

What you do after that sorts the modelers from the toy store boys. What's a toy store boy? Somebody who think that when they pay that money, they shouldn't have to worry about a single thing. Personal responsibility most of all. I'm not going on and on about how they should have checked out the plane. THEY know it, I know it, WE all know it. It's just common sense, and somebody determined to avoid any fault will never listen to any of this. They got what they asked for, and THAT is how I see it. Enough about that.

I consider ARFs to be double-edges sword, and my thoughts tie in to the last paragraph. ARFs have brought many new and wonderful people into the sport by reducing the building time and the workload.

It's also brought many people who I personally think are detrimental to the sport. Most of the guys I started out with were hard workers, good builders, and most of them were honest to a fault, and didn't blame everything else in sight when they dumb-thumbed a plane.

For the record, I crashed an ARF last month. I flew it right into a power line. I didn't see that power line at all, not even after the crash. Was it the power lines fault? Much as I'd like to claim that, NO, it was my fault.

Jim

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/6/2012 3:53 PM   
GerKonig


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hairy46


quote:

ORIGINAL: GerKonig

At least you would know where the glue was if you had built the lens yourself! What does a lens have to do with a arf!??
quote:

ORIGINAL: combatpigg

ARFs are definitely part of the RC PASSTIME...... but it's pretty lame to consider whipping out your credit card so that you will have something to fly the day after tomorrow a ''hobby''....



My other hobby is photography. I just purchased a new lens not long ago. Should I have built the lens myself? I think, maybe not.

Gerry



A lot, RC and photography are hobbies. And I flew a lot of full size airplanes, non of which I had to build. And that was also a hobby.

Gerry



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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/6/2012 4:00 PM   
hairy46


 

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Status: offline 		And neither have anything to do with the subject arf. I am sure you are happy after a full scale flight that the wing did not fall off!

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/6/2012 4:21 PM   
TexasSkyPilot



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Status: offline 		They have everything to do with it. They're hobbies.

People determined to slam ARFs are going to do so, no matter what. I don't really pay them much mind. I can always tell the genuinely concerned modelers from the angry, irate ranters.

Over the past 35 years, I built many, many models from kits. Right around 1987, I tried my first ARF. The covering was like cupboard lining paper, with 1/4" of foam on the back. Horrible stuff indeed, and those planes weighed a ton. But people bought them, and continued to do so. I continued to build them, AND to try each successive generation of ARFs as they came out. Twenty-five years later, I don't build them anymore. The ARFs have progressed to the point where they look as good as anything I ever built (short of fabric and custom paint, of course), and so I buy ARFs, after researching them and utilizing the threads here in RCU.

With such reports, I often know exactly where to go to address classic weak spots. The rest is up to me, and whatever effort I expend from that point usually determines how long its life will be.

By the way, that's why the threads are here, so we can know what to buy, and not to buy. Concerned modelers reporting their findings are a big help. Rants don't help anything, unless you like gatherings of angry mobs.

If you think ARFs are a waste of money, you clearly have several problems. You don't believe you should have to take any responsibility for the soundness of the finished, Ready-to-Fly model. It's entirely possible you have no idea what makes a good, sound model. You shouldn't be buying them, as they clearly present you with a challenge far beyond your capabilities, since ordinary sussing-out of the weak points isn't something you're willing to do.

By the way, the rest of us guys call stuff like that "ordinary care."

Jim

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/6/2012 4:39 PM   
Airplanes400



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quote:

ORIGINAL: pmerritt

Funny,  I haven't crashed an ARF plane in ages.  Am I flying to slow for you Airplanes400?  I buy quality ARF's (Great Planes, Hangar 9, etc) and stay away from most of the ''too good to be true'' models.  You can childishly try to insult ARF's but unfortunately you failed. 
They fly just as good as a scratch built and most of the times look 10X better.  Sorry, you lose.


NEWSFLASH ...

Great Planes and Hangar 9 are not quality built ARF's. Those, like all the rest of the ARF's are made with soft plywood that can be just as easily cut as balsa wood. Nowhere do I see quality plywood (such as Midwest wood) being used in ANY ARF.

Additionally, the Great Planes and Hangar 9 ARF's are made in China, and to the same low standards. Great Planes and Hangar 9 outsource their ARF's to companies in China and Asia. The only thing that is different from other cheap ARF's is the covering that is used. Otherwise, it's the same, cheap wood and buillding techniques use in the typical arf.

Oh yes, I almost forgot ... Great Planes and Hangar 9 put those cheap ARF's in their own box with their own label. So, if that convinces you or anyone else that they are different, then enjoy your delusions.

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/6/2012 4:57 PM   
TexasSkyPilot



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Status: offline 		Sorry,

Both of my GP ARFs are high-quality, solid, strong, and dependable. GP is ALWAYS better than Hangar Nine, in every instance I've seen. Covering is so-so, but stays on.

Hangar Nine - not so good. Covering jobs are better. Frames too delicate, but they still fall within the "build-it-light" mentality. The planes fly well, and hold together. But they are delicate.

There are good ones out there, and bad ones, and every level of quality in between.

~ Jim ~

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/6/2012 5:11 PM   
hairy46


 

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Status: offline 		All te arfs I have owed have taken alot of time to put together with care and wicking in glue to make a stronger structure, I do take the time and care into all my models but arfs are no where near as good as the ones you make from a kit because you never have to worry about where the glue is, it for sure still not in the bottle

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/6/2012 5:46 PM   
k3 valley flyer


 

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Status: offline 		I have hundreds of flights on GP, H9, Blackhorse, and Seagull arfs, never had one crash or fail due to poor constrcution. Many of the recent arfs from Top Flight are based on their previous kits, internal structure similar or the same design. Can one get or use better wood in kits, sure. Not a big fan of hot glue but if done correctly it seems to work. Have there been and still are some poorly built arfs? Yes , of course, but if one does some homework you can usually avoid those. I will still build planes from kits in the future but will probably buy alot more arfs. Why? Because I have alot more time and money invested in my planes from kits than I do my ARFS and they don't fly or look any better. Like life the hobby changes, like life one can have a bad experience with change, but if you don't evolve and adapt to the changes at best you miss out at worst you die.

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/6/2012 7:04 PM   
GerKonig


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hairy46

And neither have anything to do with the subject arf. I am sure you are happy after a full scale flight that the wing did not fall off!


The part you do not get of my message is because you did not read my message as an answer to another gent's comments about a "passtime".

Read the message I was answering and you will understand where I am coming from. If you do, and still do not get it, well, I',m sorry:-)


Gerry

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/6/2012 7:14 PM   
GerKonig


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: k3 valley flyer

I have hundreds of flights on GP, H9, Blackhorse, and Seagull arfs, never had one crash or fail due to poor constrcution. Many of the recent arfs from Top Flight are based on their previous kits, internal structure similar or the same design. Can one get or use better wood in kits, sure. Not a big fan of hot glue but if done correctly it seems to work. Have there been and still are some poorly built arfs? Yes , of course, but if one does some homework you can usually avoid those. I will still build planes from kits in the future but will probably buy alot more arfs. Why? Because I have alot more time and money invested in my planes from kits than I do my ARFS and they don't fly or look any better. Like life the hobby changes, like life one can have a bad experience with change, but if you don't evolve and adapt to the changes at best you miss out at worst you die.



Exactly, past is gone, let's face it. I love history and I travel all over the world to historic places. But it is not a place where you can live. The future? No way, we do not know now how many of us will not be here next year. so, we have to do the best with what we have. hat we have today. When I build a kit, I always improve on it. There is always some weak spot you can make stronger, or lighter, or better looking. Whining serves no purpose but annoying other people.

This winter my Telemaster ARF will get a total rip down, and reglue-recover job. After hundred of flights, the lase 2 with a lot of wind one hour ago... Does this mean all the Telemaster ARF or all ARFs (by generalization) are good?.
Of course not. That is why we have to avoid generalizations, and be smart enough to realize that they takes you no where.

If you are not having fun with this hobby, you are doing something wrong.


Gerry



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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/6/2012 8:37 PM  1 votes
combatpigg



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Status: online 		We live in a ARF Society now. People are too lazy to chop their own lettuce, so they pay for lettuce pre-chopped in bags.
Same goes for all the other pre-cooked food that fill up 95% of the shopping carts of those who just don't have enough time to cook...
The lines at every fast food joint wrap around the block.
Some "Big Game" hunters pay big bucks to hunt on privately owned land that is stocked with animals that have been sedated for easy [guaranteed] ARF kills.
People will always find ways to justify and to reconsile their lazyness.
What do ARF People talk about at the flying field?....
"Hey Joe, nice job on the way you glued those 2 wing halves together".
"Thanks Bob, yeah, it was a real SOB to get that plywood joiner tongue to fit. I called the distributor and they sent a service rep out to sand a couple 1000ths off the joiner and they even did the gluing for me..!"
"Well, Joe...that's the kind of service that we should expect..BTW, you sure did a great job gluing in all those hinges".
"Thanks Bob, but some of those hinge slots didn't quite line up and the distributor had the unmitigated nerve to tell me that I needed to lengthen some of the pre-cut slots..! Can you believe that..?"
"Well Joe, what did you do?"
"Bob, I decided to "Man Up" and I bought a hinge slotter tool to tackle the job. Can you believe that back in the old days the hinges slots were made with knives and crude hand tools..?"
"Joe, You Da Man..that's really incredible how you were able to find the spare time and the energy to get 'er done..!"
Thanks Bob..yeah, the sense of accomplishment is why I think we all love this hobby so much".


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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/6/2012 8:40 PM   
scale only 4 me



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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/6/2012 8:57 PM   
gjhinshaw


 

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< Message edited by gjhinshaw -- 10/7/2012 3:34 AM >

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/6/2012 9:08 PM   
OliverJacob


 

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Status: offline 		It's fun to put a kit plane together. If you enjoy building, get a kit. Don't expect it to be cheaper.
I just got an Elder, a .40 size plane - if you have to buy tank, wheels, covering and some other little parts, you will be paying close to $200
for a 40 size kit plane.
You will get an ARF for maybe half the price. A plane that is already build.
So ARFs are more economical and get you in the air fast.
Most of my ARFs do not come apart unless I have them way overpowered. Some wood and fiberglass can fix that.

I like the GP and H9 planes, but Seagull and Phoenix make very good planes. Also Value Hobbies, I got a 60 size stick plane arf for $88, this is
one sweet plane. Flies great with a heavy 15 cc gas engine.

So if I get a new plane, I will look at it and beef it up where I think it's needed. Sometimes you have to fly it a few times, then inspect everything closely and you'll find the weak spots. A wing should never come apart when properly glued together. That is a clear sign of a poorly build ARF and I would avoid that brand.

Other then that - ARFs are great for people who just want to fly.
If you like to build your planes - great, but do it for you, not to get compliments.

'Scale only 4 me' - agree.
It's rather pointless to fight about it. Arfs are taking over the market, I could not blaming anybody for buying one.
Also in the long winter months I'll build something and it's sad how kits are becoming rare and expensive.
I was looking for a prop jet kit and the only manufacturer I found was Juno RC, they currently do not sell any kits...




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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/6/2012 9:25 PM   
TexasSkyPilot



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Status: offline 		Not even sure what purpose CP's posts serves, other than to flame the guys who enjoy starting their builds with ARFs.

Odds are, most of the oldtimers like me who now build from ARF stage could build circles around the guys claiming that the ARFs are no good, or implying that there's something wrong with those who fly them.

One could just as easily say that at least we don't build little 1/2A models that require no time at all, even from a kit. Those that fly them aren't really in the sport at all, just playing at it.

Pick a subject, a type of plane, a style of flying, an engine, and ANYONE can find something to say, some way to flame the people who do it or have one. That's all that's going on here.

It's a hobby. It's for fun. But you can count on the fact that if you've got corn flakes, there's somebody nearby just holding it, waiting for you to look away. Some people think it's okay to be mean and hateful all the time. They don't really belong in this hobby. Probably not ANY hobby, if you take the time to think about it.

But, I guess negative attention is better than none.

Here are a few of my horrible ARFs. I'll stack them against anything you build. More where this came from.


Jim

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/6/2012 9:35 PM   
TexasSkyPilot



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Status: offline 		Thinking about it some more, I don't see as this thread serves any purpose at all.

Just guys fighting over it, and plenty of under-the-table insults, to be sure.

I guess I'll unsubscribe.

Jim

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/6/2012 9:39 PM   
combatpigg



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quote:

ORIGINAL: TexasSkyPilot

Not even sure what purpose CP's posts serves, other than to flame the guys who enjoy starting their builds with ARFs.

Odds are, most of the oldtimers like me who now build from ARF stage could build circles around the guys claiming that the ARFs are no good, or implying that there's something wrong with those who fly them.

One could just as easily say that at least we don't build little 1/2A models that require no time at all, even from a kit. Those that fly them aren't really in the sport at all, just playing at it.

Pick a subject, a type of plane, a style of flying, an engine, and ANYONE can find something to say, some way to flame the people who do it or have one. That's all that's going on here.

It's a hobby. It's for fun. But you can count on the fact that if you've got corn flakes, there's somebody nearby just holding it, waiting for you to look away. Some people think it's okay to be mean and hateful all the time. They don't really belong in this hobby. Probably not ANY hobby, if you take the time to think about it.

But, I guess negative attention is better than none.

Here are a few of my horrible ARFs. I'll stack them against anything you build. More where this came from.


Jim


Of course it is impossible to speak in general terms about the plain truth... about which direction our culture is going... without having some guy come shooting out of the woodwork with his pants on fire and who really does not fit the stereotype example that was given.


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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/6/2012 9:41 PM   
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Status: offline 		if it wasnt for ARFs i wouldnt be flying the kinds of planes i like.....im into the 50cc on up 3d planes.. I dont have the time or space to build such large planes...

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/6/2012 9:53 PM   
hairy46


 

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Status: offline 		This thread was for the guys who had bought arfs and was unhappy with them and now do not want them anymore! Just not our thing. You that love'm enjoy them can start thread oh how much you love them and can even do a 3 hour build thread on one!

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/6/2012 10:58 PM   
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Status: online 		My Daddy bought me an ARF Cox or maybe Testors plastic control line P-40 for Xmas back in around 1963-to 65 I estimate. It was basically my entire "haul" for Xmas that year. He was an ex P-47 pilot during WWII with 84 missions under his belt during the last 2 years of battle in Europe.
He spoke every cuss word and maybe even coined a few as he tried to [follow the directions] to get that engine to run. Thankfully somebody with model engine experience happened by to assist with that chore.
My Dad did the first flight and was able to fly out the full tank of gas. Then it was my turn.......
Xmas morning was over for me about 2 seconds after that plane broke ground...
Fast forward to Xmas 1990 [or there abouts] and I was trying to get my Son a "block buster" gift that he would always cherish and remember me by. I got him a Cox ARF RC trainer and a COX RC car that looked like an Indy Car. both ended up as horribly, disappointing POS's.
Some time later, Tower Hobbies advertised some ZAGI ARF as "an aerobatic hotrod", so I thought it was worth the gamble. It was as heavy as if it was molded out of plaster and barely had enough power to fly level for 5 seconds.
By this time, you would have thought that a scratch builder / amatuer experimental plane designer such as myself would have washed my hands of these substandard experiences...but I wanted to get into Q500..RIGHT NOW and so I bought a Lanier ARF. The plane needed the trailing edge of the wing shimmed UP 1/4" to set it at zero, the seams in the covering faced INTO the wind and the hot glued firewall broke loose from the fuselage on the final turn of the 1st heat that I had a chance of winning. Otherwise, this plane [The Predator] is a great design that I made templates of and have built all by myself with tremendous results that I can truly be proud of as a RC Modeler.
The "ARF Culture" shows up in the automotive hobby as well. These are the folks who bask in the glory at the car shows of some resto-rod they own that was built by someone else with pre-engineered parts.


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(in reply to hairy46)
       Post #: 97

RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/6/2012 11:34 PM   
scale only 4 me



Posts: 7650
Score: 314
Joined: 1/29/2002
Last Login: 5/20/2013
From: Avon Lake, OH, USA
Status: offline 		Pig, you know what shows up in your posts?? Snobbery and elitism. Too bad the hobby isn't making up to your standards. It's just fine for most of us. I have some great friends I'd never have met if it wasn't for ARFs. I just wish they built them a little better

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(in reply to combatpigg)
       Post #: 98

RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/6/2012 11:45 PM   
scoeroo


 

Posts: 219
Score: 100
Joined: 9/7/2004
Last Login: 5/16/2013
From: clarksville, PA, USA
Status: offline 		I would never buy a LANIER arf after my experience with their after sales NO SERVICE.
The plane never got off the ground due to the landing gear plate was not epoxied - it was hot glued !!
LANIER denied the issue so i packed (smashed) everything into a box and shipped it back to them for examination........never heard from them ....after numerous sent emails I gave up......pack of thieves.

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(in reply to combatpigg)
       Post #: 99

RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/6/2012 11:47 PM   
scoeroo


 

Posts: 219
Score: 100
Joined: 9/7/2004
Last Login: 5/16/2013
From: clarksville, PA, USA
Status: offline 		However i did fly the piss out of a plastic 049 powered cox F4-U back in the late 60's

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(in reply to scoeroo)
       Post #: 100

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