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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/6/2012 11:54 PM

k3 valley flyer

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CP all of your ARF experiences go back to planes sold quite a few years ago, yet you continue to judge, (as you always do), the arf planes and ARF People as you call them by your experience from a long time ago. To infer in your post 88 that all ARF buyers are either so inexperienced and/or so ignorant that they have to call the distributor/manufactuer for help on how to sand a wing joiner to get it to fit is just RUDE ARROGANCE. Your sarcasm always leaves me cold and confused. As a great model scale builder maybe you should stay away form comments about ARFs, as they are beneath your skills. Beside you need to save your sarcasm for the AMA forum.

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/6/2012 11:54 PM

combatpigg

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Snobbery?
No comment, other than perhaps you might be right.
In the end nobody is responsible for your happiness and for how you choose to spend your precious free time than you.
AFAIK you get 1 shot, then will be dead for quite awhile.

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/7/2012 12:06 AM

on_your_six

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One airplane goes in and NOW ALL ARFs are now to be avoided at your advice... how arrogant.

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Post #: 103

RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/7/2012 12:16 AM

combatpigg

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quote:

ORIGINAL: k3 valley flyer

CP all of your ARF experiences go back to planes sold quite a few years ago, yet you continue to judge, (as you always do), the arf planes and ARF People as you call them by your experience from a long time ago. To infer in your post 88 that all ARF buyers are either so inexperienced and/or so ignorant that they have to call the distributor/manufactuer for help on how to sand a wing joiner to get it to fit is just RUDE ARROGANCE. Your sarcasm always leaves me cold and confused. As a great model scale builder maybe you should stay away form comments about ARFs, as they are beneath your skills. Beside you need to save your sarcasm for the AMA forum.

If you fail to see the general direction that our culture is headed..or else you heartily endorse that same direction and see nothing wrong with it...that is either your failure or it is mine for trying to recognizing patterns that will lead us down the same path that the Great Romans took.
I see the ARF Culture as being EMBLEMATIC to a "T" about what I have already personally witnessed and or learned from by simply paying attention to history lessons.
Try to imagine people from 50 years ago needing cooking directions printed on a package of raw hamburger.

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Post #: 104

RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/7/2012 12:19 AM

combatpigg

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quote:

ORIGINAL: on_your_six

One airplane goes in and NOW ALL ARFs are now to be avoided at your advice... how arrogant.

At least you spelled arrogant correctly..well done..or did you need to use, "ARF English 101 Spell Check"..?

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/7/2012 12:34 AM

k3 valley flyer

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You are my hero, anyone who has time to send 16,000 posts on RCU in 9 years and still be a MASTER MODEL BUILDER and GRAND PHILOSOPHER is truly beyond the intelligence of the rest of us mere mortals. Oh, please advise if I mispelled anything. Wait, don't bother, I am done here.

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Post #: 106

RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/7/2012 12:50 AM

combatpigg

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quote:

ORIGINAL: k3 valley flyer

You are my hero, anyone who has time to send 16,000 posts on RCU in 9 years and still be a MASTER MODEL BUILDER and GRAND PHILOSOPHER is truly beyond the intelligence of the rest of us mere mortals. Oh, please advise if I mispelled anything. Wait, don't bother, I am done here.

The last ditch, "grasping at straw" always has to be about how many times somebody posts at ANY internet chat room.
It never fails.

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Post #: 107

RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/7/2012 1:23 AM

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< Message edited by gjhinshaw -- 10/7/2012 3:33 AM >

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Post #: 108

RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/7/2012 1:24 AM 1 votes

speedracerntrixie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: acdii

Wow I did not intend this to be an ARF bashing thread, just my displeasure of an ARF turning my fun time into despair.

However, when I arrived home, sure enough there was the kit waiting for me with 4 rolls of covering included. The color is right about the same as the blue I used on my Kadet, so I'm happy. Already have the mods done in my head plans unrolled and weighted so they lay flat, and the parts needed already set aside. I picked up a set of replacement gears for the S3010 servo that got stripped, and hoping I can repair the cable on the ignition module, and realign the crank bearings on the DLE, and I will be all set. Going to put the included motor mount in my parts box, and use the Dubro iso mount that I originally got for the DLE its already tapped for it. I didn't use it on the 4* since the mount that it came with was already setup on the firewall and worked just fine. Need to see if I have some 5/32 plywood to make a new joiner so I can reduce the Dihedral down to 1" , which is about 3* on the center ribs.

Going to make a hatch on the foredeck so I can access the ignition module and secure the battery packs. The fuel tank will go over the CG, and on the ARF I needed a lot of nose weight, so moving both battery packs to the nose should help if this one balances out the same. The kit uses a pushrod for the rudder, going to use a pull pull system instead, and put the elevator servo in the tail like it is on the ARF. Going to shrink the wing a bay or two so it fits the bed of my truck, and instead of the flat wing tips, going to carve out rounded tips.

Going to be a fun build!

I'm a scratch or kit builder myself. I have owned a few ARF models and were dissapointed with most of them. If you are somone who has matured with this hobby with ARF's then I am sure that it is a difficult thing to understand. When I was a teen learning how to fly in the late 1970's it was a real treat to see an airplane that was built by a true craftsman. I weas drawn to such airplanes and their createors. I poured over all the magazines I could get my hands on for the construction articles. Soon after my solo flight I was thrown into Q500 racing. All of my racers were scratch built. It was fun trying new things and learning from each one of them. In order to build a good airplae, you needed to know how it worked. If it needed some correction, you had to know enough to know what to change. A competition model was one that was built and usually to a higher standard then a sport airplane. I was quite proud of my models then and now.

Fast forward to the instant gratification era. For those who are happy with their ARF airplane I say good for you. Bottom line is that if you are enjoying your hobby then there is no issue. For the rest of us who were brought up on BUILDING model airplanes as part of the overall experience we will continue to do so for as long as we can. Materials are starting to dry up as the market changes. I find it more and more difficult to find the items I need. It's a real shame as IMO a part of the hobby that is dear to me is dying a slow death. One poster made the comment about putting his ARF models against anything that a builder has constructed. I would gladly accept that challenge. I have yet to see an ARF that was built strait enough to meet my expectations. Having said that I will be the first to agree that I have extreemly high expectations for my aircraft.

I would be very interested in a build thread from the OP. Then the flight reports and finally his opinion on if the kit built airplane came out better then the ARF or not. One thing I can assure everyone is that I bet he has more pride of his accomplishment with the new airplane.

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/7/2012 1:45 AM

combatpigg

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ORIGINAL: gjhinshaw

CP,
I feel sorry for you! Im not sure why, But GOD hasput you on my prayer list. Not sure of ALL your hatetred towards everything but it is what it is. Your dad would be a GREAT person to talk to. I would think that he would not be pleased with you as your actions are very hard and unreasonable towards a hobby. Sometimes people say to much (as you have) You may be a old wicked man, but I bet down deep there is still that kid that if only ARF's were out, YOU would be in line to get one! We all have a passion for something in life, I hope and Pray that yours isn't the words that come from your mouth. Not tring to be a jerk, BUT CP you need to get a life of another hobby if this one makes you SO UPSET!

I'm flattered that you deem it necessary to pray for me..! That's awesome. No doubt that it will cure [as you put it]...all of my hatred for everything............

Edit..say hi to crash99 for me...he also has a talent for spotting the wicked hatred that simmers inside his fellow men.

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/7/2012 2:05 AM

acdii

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Guys. This is NOT an ARF bashing thread. If you wish to battle your wits about ARF's please do so on another thread. This is about a CRASH that occurred because of a poorly built ARF. For me, I am done with ARF's, I tried them, and had one fail, and not impressed with them.

Now that I had some time to go over the wreckage and also study the same plane in a KIT, I discovered something in the build that had they done what was in the kit, the wing would not have failed. The spars in the kit are Spruce, the ones on the ARF, balsa. If they were made of spruce, then the gluing that was done would not have resulted in the wing breaking off. The spars separated from each other where the spars are doubled in the center.

The Fuse however on the ARF is actually a somewhat better design, but the sides, top and bottom are the same, the difference being the placement of the servos. The kit has all three servos under the cockpit, where the ARF has the elevator on the tail and the rudder is a pull/pull setup. The kit fuse is stronger though, mainly because the quality of the plywood is better. The ply in the arf is about as strong as stale crackers. I was able to remove the servo lead tube that runs to the tail with my fingers. The plywood just crumbled.

It took about a week to put the 4* together, it took about 4 days of work over 2 weeks to build my Kadet LT40. I bet I can get the 4*120 kit assembled in about the same time. I will also put it up against any arf and it will blow it away. You guys who are arfaholics, can have your arf's but they are nothing like a good kit built, or scratch built plane.

At some point I might take the left over pieces and rebuild the plane, the wings are 90% intact. I would replace the spars with Spruce, replace a few busted ribs, and the leading edge on one of them. The fuse is pretty much GONE, a good 70% of it is scrap wood, only the tail is intact. Now that I have the plans, and the parts to trace, all I will need to do is find some good plywood and cut out new fuse parts and marry them to the tail section. I can keep the wing as a 2 piece wing, but will build the spar box so that it can take the stresses.

If I have to strip the covering off an ARF to go over every joint to make sure they are good, or to replace parts because they are substandard, why bother getting an arf? Might as well just build it, at least then you know its good.

I do have to say, Eflight makes good planes, the T-34 is a strong built plane, maybe because it is designed as a trainer, but in any case, well made. Its too bad they only have electric planes. I guess they wouldnt be E flight if they did.

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/7/2012 2:24 AM

combatpigg

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acdii...You, I, or anyone else could build a plane that is destined for failure...but that is something that we can take personal responsibility for and be accountable for. It seems harder [for me] to accept structural failure from routine usage when it happens with a "turn key" product..then upon further inspection that "turn key" product shows materials, workmanship and engineering that is well below the simple standards that have already been put in place by the guys who pioneered this hobby. I think many of these "industrial planes" have good design and engineering, but the reality of economic pressures makes it hard for the guys in production to be profitable without cutting corners.
Drizzling glue with a syringe, and / or sticking bamboo skewers into a plane that is already supposed to be a finished product..just isn't what the end users should consider standard operating procedure after paying any amount of money for any plane that has the potential to kill.

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/7/2012 2:44 AM

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I agree on that, but That is not what this thread was about. Now if a ARF were built to the same standards as a good kit, they would pretty expensive, and not sell like they do, but then again, isnt that the whole point? Make them, sell them, they break, people buy another one to replace it, mainly because the market they created is for people who lack the skills or mindset to build one in the first place.

For me, flying is only a part of the hobby, the biggest part for me is the plane itself. Spending time, by myself, working on a plane is relaxing, even if its just going through all my parts and tools. Not everyday can be spent flying, some days the weather is just not good to fly in, which lately seems to be the case, fall is here, winter not far behind, and its getting windy again.

I love building, creating, carving, covering, its the part of the hobby I enjoy most, the thrill is then going out and flying what you built. I can sum it up nicely. When I flew the 4 *, the T-34, the Apprentice, and the Dewey, all plane that I didn't build, just tossed parts in it, I was ok flying them, but my Kadet ALWAYS brings a smile to my face when I take off, fly it around, land it, and do it again. It is my pride and joy because I BUILT IT! When that plane comes in on final, touches down, tail held high and rolls to a gentle stop, I grin from ear to ear. I just dont get the same feeling when I fly all the others.

When I crashed it two weeks ago on a dumb mistake of flying too slow with crosswinds, I was sad, but I took that plane to my work bench, and pulled the covering off, repaired it and recovered it and it looks like new again. Its my pride and joy and I want it to look like it is, even if it is just a modified trainer! I flew it again last Tuesday, the same day the 4* failed, and it flew great, again when I landed I had a big grin, and felt great pride that it still flies great.

Funny but I just dont get that flying an ARF.

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/7/2012 3:05 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: combatpigg

quote:

ORIGINAL: k3 valley flyer

You are my hero, anyone who has time to send 16,000 posts on RCU in 9 years and still be a MASTER MODEL BUILDER and GRAND PHILOSOPHER is truly beyond the intelligence of the rest of us mere mortals. Oh, please advise if I mispelled anything. Wait, don't bother, I am done here.

The last ditch, ''grasping at straw'' always has to be about how many times somebody posts at ANY internet chat room.
It never fails.

CBP,
Hold your ground and stand proud. The wolves are circling the camp. Character assanination IS a last ditch attempt when someone finds themself to be outwitted.

These ARF arguments are total nonsense concerning those that look to the ARF when they are in need of someone else to do their work for them and then complain because the work is not done to their standards. In reality there is no such thing as an ARF because someone took the time to build the damned thing. Many who buy ARF's have no idea of proper building techniques to begin with and do not have the experience or knowledge to recognize structural integrity or inadequacy from the get go.

Complaining costs nothing and requires no high level of intelligence.

Just for reference.........here is my first ARF in 1962. I had a blast with it. My imagination ran wild because of it. And my hobby was born with it. When my models crash I do not cry about it. I build another one. If I had quit this great hobby after acdii's comment of.... "For me, I am done with ARF's, I tried them, and had one fail, and not impressed with them"??? a single crash????? then I wouild consider myself a quitter and if I posted such rubbish online for all to read I would be embarrased and a whiner.

An expert is anyone that has crashed more than 10 times !!!!

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/7/2012 6:55 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: combatpigg

quote:

ORIGINAL: k3 valley flyer

CP all of your ARF experiences go back to planes sold quite a few years ago, yet you continue to judge, (as you always do), the arf planes and ARF People as you call them by your experience from a long time ago. To infer in your post 88 that all ARF buyers are either so inexperienced and/or so ignorant that they have to call the distributor/manufactuer for help on how to sand a wing joiner to get it to fit is just RUDE ARROGANCE. Your sarcasm always leaves me cold and confused. As a great model scale builder maybe you should stay away form comments about ARFs, as they are beneath your skills. Beside you need to save your sarcasm for the AMA forum.

If you fail to see the general direction that our culture is headed..or else you heartily endorse that same direction and see nothing wrong with it...that is either your failure or it is mine for trying to recognizing patterns that will lead us down the same path that the Great Romans took.
I see the ARF Culture as being EMBLEMATIC to a ''T'' about what I have already personally witnessed and or learned from by simply paying attention to history lessons.
Try to imagine people from 50 years ago needing cooking directions printed on a package of raw hamburger.

Your old man thought your generation was a bunch of lazy no-good-for nothing slackers,
your granddaddy thought the same about your dad's, and so on back thru the ages.
So what. We're still here.
Good news for you, is this thought pattern is normal for most.
Bad news, it is stupid.
You wouldn't have to go too far back to find folks that would think
playing with any model airplanes, stickbuilt or other wise, is a complete waste of time.
Not to mention sitting in front of an electronic box insulting other folks over how they enjoy their free time.

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/7/2012 7:47 AM

combatpigg

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 804

Your old man thought your generation was a bunch of lazy no-good-for nothing slackers,
your granddaddy thought the same about your dad's, and so on back thru the ages.
So what. We're still here.
Good news for you, is this thought pattern is normal for most.
Bad news, it is stupid.
You wouldn't have to go too far back to find folks that would think
playing with any model airplanes, stickbuilt or other wise, is a complete waste of time.
Not to mention sitting in front of an electronic box insulting other folks over how they enjoy their free time.

The downward slide that I speak of is real......
Here's just 1 example....
Obesity is at an all time high...several times what it was 50 years ago. They have public service announcements now that urge kids to try and get at least 30 minutes worth of exercise every day.
I've spoken with several "children of the 1980s and 90s" who have since become adults and asked them if they even ONCE played any sort of playground [or street] games after school like baseball, football, basketball, etc. and it is astonishing to hear how many answered NO to that.
Show me a lazy kid and I'll show you an even lazyier adult.
Plays right into the ARF theme.
Prove me wrong.

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/7/2012 12:33 PM

Luchnia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: acdii

Now if a ARF were built to the same standards as a good kit, they would pretty expensive, and not sell like they do, but then again, isnt that the whole point? Make them, sell them, they break, people buy another one to replace it, mainly because the market they created is for people who lack the skills or mindset to build one in the first place.

I would have to disagree with the above view to some degree. What type of people was the original ARF market for? To imply that it is for people who lack skills or mindset to build might be a stretch. Maybe a couple of the reasons are that there was a market for those that don't have time to build, and also for those that lack building skills.

I am an example of someone who can build anything I desire given the time. The ARF is the key for me due to lack of time. Not sure why this is not really addressed here in fullness as there are two sides to this coin.

Since you had a bad ARF (btw I had a bad one too, but it was shoddy workmanship) and for some reason now you feel you have to pull the covering off each ARF to tell how well each is built? It is an ARF for goodness sake and generally is much more inexpensive than that kit you build that has hours upon hours of labor invested. When I put so much time into something I KNOW it is better. So I would not argue a kit built plane is not stronger than an ARF.

To date, I have not had to pull the covering off even ONE ARF wing to determine whether my ARFs were OK. I have one that has flown over 500 flights, closer to 600 now, and many of the flights have been extremely rigerous! Some of the guys I fly with wonder how it can keep flying with what I put it through. I have seen kit planes not do one bit better and yet I have seen some kit planes that are tough as a rock and yes, because of the extra weight fly like a rock too.

I would love to build my own planes. However, it is not feasible for me at this time. I would just probably not fly at all if ARFs were not available to me unless I found something someone else built and sold to me. I hate to think that I would not be able to partake in this great hobby which I so enjoy just because I had a one-sided view about building verses ARFs.

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/7/2012 12:35 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: combatpigg

quote:

ORIGINAL: k3 valley flyer

You are my hero, anyone who has time to send 16,000 posts on RCU in 9 years and still be a MASTER MODEL BUILDER and GRAND PHILOSOPHER is truly beyond the intelligence of the rest of us mere mortals. Oh, please advise if I mispelled anything. Wait, don't bother, I am done here.

The last ditch, ''grasping at straw'' always has to be about how many times somebody posts at ANY internet chat room.
It never fails.

Just doing the math here, and 16,023 posts in 8 years 11 months, averages out to 5 posts every day.

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/7/2012 12:38 PM

Luchnia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: combatpigg
The downward slide that I speak of is real......
Here's just 1 example....
Obesity is at an all time high...several times what it was 50 years ago. They have public service announcements now that urge kids to try and get at least 30 minutes worth of exercise every day.

CP, I think this is something that most of us do agree on, yet I don't think this really plays into the ARF area. Do I think building a plane will help a child with obesity? Not really, it takes more than building a plane to change lifestyle. Granted it would help these kids just to get out and do something different.

One thing is for sure, if they ran and played like we did as kids they would not have time to be chunking their faces full of food all the time. Also, we know the parents play the largest role in this. My parents and grandparents did not allow us to sit around eat all day and get over inflated. They actually cared about us and that was the difference to me.

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/7/2012 12:47 PM

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I realy do not think kids are born lazy I think that the are tought this trait by there parents I believe that kids are just like sponges what they see is what they do I have only built two kits in my life a kadet and a elder and I have 11 arfs that I fly I am very happy with these arfs but I also believe there is only 3 great arf company's out there sebart 3dhs and extreme flight I would consider building a couple more kits but time don't allow I work at least 60 hours a week trying to raise family and I enjoy flying more than building I guess I could be realy self centered and go to basement lock door and build kit every night but what would my kids do sit in front of tv eat junk food and become fat and lazy and I can bich about there generation that's not me

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/7/2012 12:59 PM

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I don't do ARF's. I scratch or build from Plans. I am involved in the hobby at the highest levels of competition, and yeah, I'm the guy that Static Judges Scale Outline for Team Scale and Unlimited Scale at Top Gun. Now having said all that, and throwing my qualifications out there for Y'all to stomp on, here is what I think about ARF's and those who fly them.

If you have kids, or a work schedule that requires a ton of your time then ARF's are a great way for you to enjoy the hobby. Just don't try to enter a Scale event with one. If you only want to fly and don't want to learn to build, then ARF's are a great way for you to be able to participate. I used to not understand why anyone would want to fly something that someone else built, but time has a way of changing our viewpoints.

Someone flying an ARF is still a part of this hobby. Someone who scratch builds is becoming a rarity. I'd rather build my own, but someone else might be a better flyer than a builder, therefore he chooses to fly an ARF. I can name a lot of great builders that can't fly worth spit, and can name them if you want.

Climb down of your high horses (both sides) and enjoy the hobby for what it is.

That's my opinion (ought to be yours).

Bill, Waco Brother #1

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Its easy, just glue all the pieces together, and sand off everything that doesnt look like an airplane.

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/7/2012 1:02 PM

on_your_six

Posts: 1000
Score: 264
Joined: 6/15/2009
Last Login: 5/21/2013
From: Maryland, MD, USA
Status: online

My message was not even directed at you... someone can spell.... not that difficult with spell check.

Now go see your mommy, your diaper is full again.

quote:

ORIGINAL: combatpigg

quote:

ORIGINAL: on_your_six

One airplane goes in and NOW ALL ARFs are now to be avoided at your advice... how arrogant.

At least you spelled arrogant correctly..well done..or did you need to use, ''ARF English 101 Spell Check''..?

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/7/2012 1:03 PM

Stickbuilder

Certified

Posts: 8422
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Joined: 11/20/2005
Last Login: 5/21/2013
From: Wildwood, FL, USA
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: on_your_six

My message was not even directed at you... someone can spell.... not that difficult with spell check.

Now go see your mommy, your diaper is full again.

I beg your pardon.................

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Its easy, just glue all the pieces together, and sand off everything that doesnt look like an airplane.

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Post #: 123

RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/7/2012 1:12 PM

Luchnia

Posts: 1778
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Joined: 5/17/2009
Last Login: 5/21/2013
From: Amelia, VA, USA
Status: offline

Sickbuilder, I for one am glad we still have builders. I wished I had the time to build. I know a few builders myself that I greatly respect and admire and they are nearing those late days of life that building will soon cease as they move on to different place.

I do wish that more younger people could build and I wonder if it will become rare in some circles as younger folks often are not trained up to fix or build anything anymore. Most struggle tying their shoestrings, even if they have any. Building anything would be good for our young people today.

Can you imagine what would happen if a young person attempted to build a piece of furniture?

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/7/2012 1:34 PM

804

Posts: 1040
Score: 172
Joined: 9/17/2005
Last Login: 5/21/2013
From: sheridan, IN, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: combatpigg

quote:

ORIGINAL: 804

Your old man thought your generation was a bunch of lazy no-good-for nothing slackers,
your granddaddy thought the same about your dad's, and so on back thru the ages.
So what. We're still here.
Good news for you, is this thought pattern is normal for most.
Bad news, it is stupid.
You wouldn't have to go too far back to find folks that would think
playing with any model airplanes, stickbuilt or other wise, is a complete waste of time.
Not to mention sitting in front of an electronic box insulting other folks over how they enjoy their free time.

The downward slide that I speak of is real......
Here's just 1 example....
Obesity is at an all time high...several times what it was 50 years ago. They have public service announcements now that urge kids to try and get at least 30 minutes worth of exercise every day.
I've spoken with several ''children of the 1980s and 90s'' who have since become adults and asked them if they even ONCE played any sort of playground [or street] games after school like baseball, football, basketball, etc. and it is astonishing to hear how many answered NO to that.
Show me a lazy kid and I'll show you an even lazyier adult.
Plays right into the ARF theme.
Prove me wrong.

I think you need to look at the bigger picture.
What is an ARF?
An ARF is a mass- produced toy which once was a one-off, hand made child's dream of flight.
No different than any other mass-produced toy or product our generation uses for recreation, work, transportation, etc.

If you want to lay the blame for society's ills on something, try blaming it on every previous generation of a culture dedicated
to making everyday life easier thru mass-production of gadgets.
And, yes, that includes Tom Brokaw's "Greatest Generation".
Theirs' is the generation that culminated in the 40 hr. work week, several weeks of paid vacation, 20-25 years of work to
a paid retirement which has proven to be unsustainable. Look how that has worked out for several European countries, and how
it is working out for us now.

Fat, lazy kids turning into fat, lazy adults is nothing new... a "duh" moment.
Our generation and every one before has led them down that path.
I think succeeding generations will get it figured out.

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