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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/11/2012 8:43 PM   
acdii


 

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Status: offline 		It does.  The fabric covering is much stronger than the plastic will ever be, and more resistant to punctures and tears. 

PICS or it didnt happen, I want to see what the 120 looks like in fabric. 


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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/11/2012 9:21 PM   
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ORIGINAL: shamalam

Just started flying/crashing trainers last June, and have done enough aircraft repair to know I'd rather be flyin' than fixin.'  Recently got a Sig 4-star ARF, then read this thread; hope I didn't get a lemon.  I bought it based on hearing Sig is a good company, but the manual says something to the effect that, ''Since this plane was constructed in a part of the world where there's more humidity, you might have to tighten covering over wood that has shrunk,''  but it didn't also say ''We built this plane with as little glue as possible ...''  guess I'll call Sig to see what they recommend.   Again, rather be fliyin' than fixin.'  


Rather be flying than fixing?

You are then a perfect candidate for kit or scratch building. Build it once and then just go fly. No more fixing on that plane.

With every ARF there is lots to fix before you fly and then everytime you fly as new snags develop from use because of poor original manufacturing.

Ultimately that takes a lot more time and effort than just building it yourself once to airworthy standard.

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/12/2012 12:38 AM   
acdii


 

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Status: offline 		For any one interested, there is a build thread I started on the Four Star 120 kit Sig sent me. So far the left wing is built, working on the right wing, and it is well glued at this point

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_11254485/tm.htm


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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/16/2012 12:03 AM   
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Status: offline 		Just putting the final coat of color dope on the 4*120 now, had some extra cub yellow so used that over a white base coat looks not to bad, will take some pics and post them. 

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/16/2012 1:02 AM   
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Status: offline 		That reminds me, I have some more pics of my build that I need to post. I have the wings assembled ready to join, and the tips are laminated ready to carve, fuse dry fitted so I can do my mods on it for the rear servo install for the elevator.

Looking forward to see a fabric covered 4*.


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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/19/2012 9:41 AM   
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quote:

You are then a perfect candidate for kit or scratch building. Build it once and then just go fly. No more fixing on that plane.

With every ARF there is lots to fix before you fly and then everytime you fly as new snags develop from use because of poor original manufacturing.

Ultimately that takes a lot more time and effort than just building it yourself once to airworthy standard.


I have 2 ARFs and both of them have been amazing. They are both made by world models and my experience with them have been great. Absolutely no reinforcing was required and they are both quite light which means lower airspeed to gain the required lift, so they land slow and fly brilliantly . They are both very strong and are made entirely from lite ply and balsa. the fuselage construction on both of them is entirely lite ply The 40 sized high wing trainer is at a total flying weight of 1.6kgs where the low wing is still light at 2.2. I have had a couple of prangs with the high wing and got the opportunity  to rebuild them which was immensely skill building and has prepared my well for when I want to build a kit. In general I think that ARFs take a lot of guesswork out of a plane for beginners , For example a lot of kits don't include any hardware or covering.
I find it quite funny when people with the same ARF that I have flown for a year buy one and then replace the undercarriage, hardware, and covering  before they to fly it. I think that there are bound to be good ARFs and bad ARFs but funnily enough both of mine have been very cheap!
Did I just get lucky? no because most of my club-mates all fly ARFs and they usually need little or no modification.


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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/20/2012 8:52 AM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FLYMAD

quote:

You are then a perfect candidate for kit or scratch building. Build it once and then just go fly. No more fixing on that plane.

With every ARF there is lots to fix before you fly and then everytime you fly as new snags develop from use because of poor original manufacturing.

Ultimately that takes a lot more time and effort than just building it yourself once to airworthy standard.


I have 2 ARFs and both of them have been amazing. They are both made by world models and my experience with them have been great. Absolutely no reinforcing was required and they are both quite light which means lower airspeed to gain the required lift, so they land slow and fly brilliantly . They are both very strong and are made entirely from lite ply and balsa. the fuselage construction on both of them is entirely lite ply The 40 sized high wing trainer is at a total flying weight of 1.6kgs where the low wing is still light at 2.2. I have had a couple of prangs with the high wing and got the opportunity  to rebuild them which was immensely skill building and has prepared my well for when I want to build a kit. In general I think that ARFs take a lot of guesswork out of a plane for beginners , For example a lot of kits don't include any hardware or covering.
I find it quite funny when people with the same ARF that I have flown for a year buy one and then replace the undercarriage, hardware, and covering  before they to fly it. I think that there are bound to be good ARFs and bad ARFs but funnily enough both of mine have been very cheap!
Did I just get lucky? no because most of my club-mates all fly ARFs and they usually need little or no modification.



The best part about this whole story is that with all the time that these ARFs have spared from your life..they freed up MORE time for you to spend in line waiting for someone to hand you your fast food dinner so you can dash home to watch MORE TV and spend MORE time going online..!
Win-Win..!!


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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/20/2012 1:12 PM   
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Status: offline 		I for one am super glad we have ARFs. I would not be flying right now if I had to build. BTW, I have noticed some have to do a lot to their ARFs and others very minimal. I have done very little to any of mine and one I have flown almost 600 flights and some of the flights have been grueling.

I did get one ARF that was designed well, but very poor workmanship. For what I paid I just don't have too much room to complain a lot. I took care of the issues and it has been a fantastic 200 (about 300.00 after repairs) dollar 30cc bird! I have less in it than some of my glow planes.

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/20/2012 10:06 PM   
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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/20/2012 10:17 PM   
combatpigg



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Luchnia

I for one am super glad we have ARFs. I would not be flying right now if I had to build.


I do not "buy into" this statement. If you had no other choice and if you wanted to fly badly enough, I'm sure you would be able to build a plane that you could have fun with. Even if it was a "lowly" FreeFlight or ControlLine plane, I'm pretty sure that the average guy could provide for himself...just like he always had to.
It has never been easier to build your own models with the advent of Super Glue, iron on coverings, pre engineered hardware that is dirt cheap and also a vast array of building materials [including cardboard and coroplast] that are relatively inexpensive.



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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/20/2012 10:38 PM   
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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/20/2012 11:19 PM   
acdii


 

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/20/2012 11:31 PM   
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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/20/2012 11:39 PM   
acdii


 

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/21/2012 12:10 AM   
FLYMAD


 

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quote:

I do not "buy into" this statement. If you had no other choice and if you wanted to fly badly enough, I'm sure you would be able to build a plane that you could have fun with. Even if it was a "lowly" FreeFlight or ControlLine plane, I'm pretty sure that the average guy could provide for himself...just like he always had to.
It has never been easier to build your own models with the advent of Super Glue, iron on coverings, pre engineered hardware that is dirt cheap and also a vast array of building materials [including cardboard and coroplast] that are relatively inexpensive.


combatpigg I think that ARFs ( I mean good quality reputable ARFs) are only a good thing, It opens a door for many people to enter the hobby that would otherwise be limited in time and/or tools. Some don't enjoy building at all but they love flying. ARFs cater for these people. I don't think that they are doing any harm what so ever because they are not stopping you people from building kits or designing your own models. that is great too and I have received a couple of planes crashed by club-mates who didn't want to fix and I really enjoyed rebuilding them to an airworthy state. I really want to start kit building one day soon. and as for your comment "If you had no other choice and if you wanted to fly badly enough, I'm sure you would be able to build a plane" Well then Isn't it lucky for this person that they don't have to build and they have the choice to buy instead. I can kind of understand your reasons for wanting everyone to kit build but If manufacturers were only building kits, then the hobby would likely die over the years as the older folk were no longer there to build. What I have enjoyed the most about my ARFs is the amount of workmanship for the price. Oh and I used every single bit of  the included high quality hardware on my ARFs.


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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/21/2012 12:13 AM   
hairy46


 

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/21/2012 12:45 AM   
Rick W


 

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Status: offline 		Hey,

I've heard that mentioned several times, if it wasn't for ARF's I wouldn't fly. Well there's a reason to do away with AFR's...

Rick

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/21/2012 1:35 AM   
do335a


 

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combatpigg I think that ARFs ( I mean good quality reputable ARFs) are only a good thing, It opens a door for many people to enter the hobby that would otherwise be limited...

[/quote]

Ah, now we're getting somewhere.

Just exactly what is "the hobby"?

Is it operating an RC plane? Is it constructing an RC plane? Is it a combination of crafting a plane and then flying it?

If flying it is all that the hobby is to you, enjoy your ARF. Leave the rest to the aircraft/aviation enthusiasts. You are simply an operator. May as well just get a toy foamy and have at it.

If you are an enthusiast, there is a lot more to it than just operating the plane.

Same goes for full size aviation. Some are happy to just go out and fly. Others want a larger experience and actually construct a plane and then operate it.

What you do will depend on what experience you want and what you are willing to accept to achieve it. For me, I realize that ARFs are here to stay while personally given their characteristics, they have no place for me. I want to fly something which I created - even from design inception at times. If it requires building or assembly from a kit, I know that the fanatic degree of accuracy and high standard for top end materials will not be achieved by the compromise of a factory assembled ARF which is driven by profit. It could be much better, at the cost of profit. That's not liekly to happen.

IMO, all you guys who are apologists for ARFs are fooling yourself on their structural integrity. I've seen lots of them and even tried a few. Regardless of claimed completeness or high grade construction or hardware, including that thousand buck+ 1/3 size CAP 232, all were severely lacking. They did not fuilfil the advertised promise.

And guess who gets called on when those hobby entrants who must have an ARF call when it needs to be corrected for assembly or fixed? And guess who has the tools? Not the other ARFers, that's for sure.

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/21/2012 1:37 AM   
Luchnia


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: combatpigg


quote:

ORIGINAL: Luchnia

I for one am super glad we have ARFs. I would not be flying right now if I had to build.


I do not ''buy into'' this statement. If you had no other choice and if you wanted to fly badly enough, I'm sure you would be able to build a plane that you could have fun with. Even if it was a ''lowly'' FreeFlight or ControlLine plane, I'm pretty sure that the average guy could provide for himself...just like he always had to.
It has never been easier to build your own models with the advent of Super Glue, iron on coverings, pre engineered hardware that is dirt cheap and also a vast array of building materials [including cardboard and coroplast] that are relatively inexpensive.



I stick by the basic premise that I would not fly if I did not have an ARF. If I had no other choice and there were no ARFs made, the probability is extremely high that I would not be flying at all. There is one option and that is that I would buy a plane from someone that had built it. I have little to no interest/desire in building an RC plane. Maybe people dislike ARFs so much that they would lke to see the planet cleared of them.

I am flying because someone cared enough to build ARFs for folks like me. Oh, I also buy ARD (Almost Ready to Drive) automobiles because I don't like to build cars to drive. The same thing goes with my mower, farm tractor, fishing gear, etc., I prefer them ready to go instead of building them.

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/21/2012 1:58 AM   
FLYMAD


 

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all you guys who are apologists for ARFs are fooling yourself on their structural integrity.


That is rubbish. I think that you may have tried ARFs 10 years ago when they were probably poor quality. And Do335a Are you suggesting that full size pilots that do not construct or build a kit plane are lesser pilots, Wow, Your average airline pilot doesn't build his own planes, that is assuming that full size pilots even own their own plane. My ARFs ARE of good quality and the design is better that I could have ever built myself. I'm afraid that you are fighting a losing battle because ARFs are here to stay and their quality is only going to improve. I am not any less of a modeler than you just because I don't build from scratch. I fix and that IMO is just as challenging as kit building. I like ARFs and I can defiantly see the thrill of kit or scratch building but I don't try and trample others in the dirt because they enjoy the hobby in a different way to me.


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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/21/2012 2:13 AM   
combatpigg



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Luchnia


quote:

ORIGINAL: combatpigg


quote:

ORIGINAL: Luchnia

I for one am super glad we have ARFs. I would not be flying right now if I had to build.


I do not ''buy into'' this statement. If you had no other choice and if you wanted to fly badly enough, I'm sure you would be able to build a plane that you could have fun with. Even if it was a ''lowly'' FreeFlight or ControlLine plane, I'm pretty sure that the average guy could provide for himself...just like he always had to.
It has never been easier to build your own models with the advent of Super Glue, iron on coverings, pre engineered hardware that is dirt cheap and also a vast array of building materials [including cardboard and coroplast] that are relatively inexpensive.



I stick by the basic premise that I would not fly if I did not have an ARF. If I had no other choice and there were no ARFs made, the probability is extremely high that I would not be flying at all. There is one option and that is that I would buy a plane from someone that had built it. I have little to no interest/desire in building an RC plane. Maybe people dislike ARFs so much that they would lke to see the planet cleared of them.

I am flying because someone cared enough to build ARFs for folks like me. Oh, I also buy ARD (Almost Ready to Drive) automobiles because I don't like to build cars to drive. The same thing goes with my mower, farm tractor, fishing gear, etc., I prefer them ready to go instead of building them.


If you are comparing building a toy airplane to the complexity of building these other examples that you gave..then there is no sense in hoping for a reasonable discussion here.
If you are convinced that the explosion in ARF popularity is due to guys not having enough time or enough skill to build their own planes..continue to march.
Just ONCE I'd like to see ONE honest man step forward and admit that he goes the ARF route because he spends too much time watching TV, playing video games and playing on the internet.


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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/21/2012 2:55 AM   
Fs one


 

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Status: offline 		Lets defy what a hobbyist is, one that fly's planes and does not build or repair.What is a modeler one who repairs,builds,fly's to me that is the difference.As for arf's i believe they have a place,When i started this hobby 20yrs ago i purchased a hobbico trainer for my first plane i had no experience in building.It gave me a good foundation to get to know the parts of the aircraft.Then i purchased another hobbico arf a low wing trainer.I was considered the arf guy at the club they were built good and flew well.My 3rd plane was a great planes super sportster a kit to build,my wife bought it for me.When i opened up the box and pulled out the plans i went wow how will i ever build this thing.I never had any experience building from plans,but i knew i had to build it my wife paid the money for this kit.Well i can tell you i did build this kit with no help from anyone i did it all myself.When i was done with this kit i was proud of my achievements.I could never have done it without building those 2 arf kits.So i like arf kits as well.For those that say all arf kits are cheaply built they don't know what they are talking about.I now have built 18 planes a few arfs and many kits.Some of the kits i have buit have not had the best quality in wood or design.And i highly recommend building a plane from a kit there's nothing like it.You feel on top of the world when you finish the job,then go out to watch it lift off the ground into the air and fly so nicely.All i can say to those of you who do not learn to build your own kits you don't know what your missing!The satisfaction it gives you is incredible!


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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/21/2012 4:42 AM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: do335a


quote:

ORIGINAL: shamalam

Just started flying/crashing trainers last June, and have done enough aircraft repair to know I'd rather be flyin' than fixin.'  Recently got a Sig 4-star ARF, then read this thread; hope I didn't get a lemon.  I bought it based on hearing Sig is a good company, but the manual says something to the effect that, ''Since this plane was constructed in a part of the world where there's more humidity, you might have to tighten covering over wood that has shrunk,''  but it didn't also say ''We built this plane with as little glue as possible ...''  guess I'll call Sig to see what they recommend.   Again, rather be fliyin' than fixin.'  


Rather be flying than fixing?

You are then a perfect candidate for kit or scratch building. Build it once and then just go fly. No more fixing on that plane.

With every ARF there is lots to fix before you fly and then everytime you fly as new snags develop from use because of poor original manufacturing.

Ultimately that takes a lot more time and effort than just building it yourself once to airworthy standard.



I started in this hobby in 1970, when I was 20. 42 years went by, and I can tell you one thing. Most of my life the planes that I saw crash where kit-built and not ARF:-) ARFs is a relatively recent thing.

Yes, kit builders screw up nicely too. I remember a kit built warplane that went in because some hinges were forgotten to be glued in. It flew for a while, and then, before having a chance to land, the owner saw it became kit again... In other cases I saw wings folding, and parts abandon the aircraft. I even saw the bottom covering of a model fly off...

I saw horrible kit built examples. So, if you think for a moment that all people build nice kit models, or safe to fly models, or structurally safe models, or attractive models, think again:-)

Gerry
This thread is going on forever.... Let;'s discuss something we all can easily agree on like, maybe religion, politics or guns:-) Or the kind of oil that is best for our power plants, or if electrics are better than anything else on the face of earth, or what radio is really best. Oh, I know, let's agree on what the average American looks like:-)


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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/21/2012 6:24 AM   
FLYMAD


 

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quote:

Lets defy what a hobbyist is, one that fly's planes and does not build or repair.What is a modeler one who repairs,builds,fly's to me that is the difference.As for arf's i believe they have a place,When i started this hobby 20yrs ago i purchased a hobbico trainer for my first plane i had no experience in building.It gave me a good foundation to get to know the parts of the aircraft.Then i purchased another hobbico arf a low wing trainer.I was considered the arf guy at the club they were built good and flew well.My 3rd plane was a great planes super sportster a kit to build,my wife bought it for me.When i opened up the box and pulled out the plans i went wow how will i ever build this thing.I never had any experience building from plans,but i knew i had to build it my wife paid the money for this kit.Well i can tell you i did build this kit with no help from anyone i did it all myself.When i was done with this kit i was proud of my achievements.I could never have done it without building those 2 arf kits.So i like arf kits as well.For those that say all arf kits are cheaply built they don't know what they are talking about.I now have built 18 planes a few arfs and many kits.Some of the kits i have buit have not had the best quality in wood or design.And i highly recommend building a plane from a kit there's nothing like it.You feel on top of the world when you finish the job,then go out to watch it lift off the ground into the air and fly so nicely.All i can say to those of you who do not learn to build your own kits you don't know what your missing!The satisfaction it gives you is incredible!


Finally someone who talks some sense! for me it is all down to what you want to do. My choice to buy my ARFs had nothing to do with wanting to watch TV and be on the internet It is because I did research on them and they had positive reviews. I trusted the factory more than my own skills and yes I would rather be building my flying skills than building a kit. That is just a personal choice and I can definitely see the satisfaction of assembling a kit properly. I have experienced that satasfaction from fixing my ARFs after crashes due to pilot error, NOT the plane.


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(in reply to GerKonig)
       Post #: 224

RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/21/2012 6:37 AM   
countilaw



Posts: 803
Score: 219
Joined: 1/18/2012
Last Login: 5/20/2013
From: Grand Prairie, TX, USA
Status: offline 		When we got into   modelling,   we loved   airplanes.   The way they looked,  the way they were designed and the way they flew.     We had a real interest in   airplanes.     Before I started flying   C/L,   I  knew what a  vertical stab,  elevator,   aileron and flap was.       Most of these guys that claim that if it wasn't for   ARF's  they wouldn't be in the hobby is because they didn't know    what a   horizontal stab was until someone told them. They were just  used to looking for the  "on"  switch on their  PS3  video game.  

The  excuse,  "I don't have time to build."  is   a farce.     It's really an excuse for,  " I don't know how to build."       When I started flying  RC in 1970,  I was taking    18 to 21 hours of college,  and working  from  11p to 7a  in a hospital full time and still found time to build  my planes and I have friends that can verify that.  

The  reasoning, "  I don't like to build,  I just like to fly."   means,      "I don't like to work,  I just like to play."      They don't want to work for the ability to fly their planes.   They want to take the   Styrofoam toy out of the box and fly it around the yard only when they don't  have anything else to do or to  impress the neighbors with,  "Hey look what I can do!" 

It's my opinion anyone that can't build or won't build his airplane,   isn't a hobbyist, but a" boy with a  toy ". 


Frank  





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It''s a hobby, not a job.


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(in reply to GerKonig)
       Post #: 225

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