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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/9/2012 1:04 AM   
foodstick



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Status: offline 		I think one aspect of this conflict that never seems to get brought up is the fact that each and every shipment of arfs could greatly differ from the next. things in China and the rc world change so fast that one batch might not even use the same type of wood or glue as the next.

I feel for the importers, all the money in the game and they get what they get.

I know this thread started about a Sig product, to me its interesting, Were Sigs construction guidelines being followed by the Manufacturer? Or did they (Chinese manufacturer) skimp here and there to try and squeeze more profit on that end?

And we all saw what happened a year or so ago, whether Sig refused a shipment, or couldn't buy the shipment.. either way that shipment showed up on one of the Chinese type model sites, cheaper than before, and barely if any attempt to hide who the design was taken from.

That is my biggest complaint from the ARF world ...you have to really stay up to date on the latest news of a planes quality, or you might be burnt..


One other thing that does bother me some is the stereotype of the grumpy old kit builder that can't change with the times. So often I see people that have flown for decades trying to explain to newer fliers the Exhilaration of going to any field, and seeing unique planes everywhere. some perfect, others awful. Sometimes people would drive half way across the state to be at a test flight for some new or unusual model. I think the effort to explain some of the thrill you missed as a newer flier is misconstrued as a slander against new fliers.

In the end I own and fly both, I try to pay attention to problems in the airframes no matter who did the gluing. I will say one thing the computer designed arfs are amazing in the way some of them interlock and build, I would SO LOVE it if you could buy some of those wood arfs as a cheap kit...

Hopefully some of this makes sense

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/9/2012 2:44 AM   
combatpigg



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Status: offline 		Well put Foodstick. It isn't possible to convey the difference between the two seperate eras to an audience so insecure in their own accomplishments that they take the generalized differences noted as a personal attack.


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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/9/2012 2:47 AM   
combatpigg



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I was taught several years ago that what you put into print will be read / comprehended by the general population at an average 8th grade reading level.


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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/9/2012 5:33 AM   
larrysogla


 

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Status: offline 		There really is not much cultural drive to be a kit builder/scratch builder in this current generation. This is a generation raised on fast food, fast google search, fast technology progress etc., etc. Kit building/scratch building also demands an investment in a habitable work space and an assortment of special tools/jigs. I for one has bought thousands of dollars of ARF's and RTF's for the unbeatable convenience of somebody else taking the time and effort of building it for me. I only built one kit and scratch built only one time in my life and that was when I was 20 years old and that was 42 years ago. Now I don't have the patience anymore to invest in special tools/jigs and then meticulously build one piece at a time. Scratch building and kit building has for many of us is now a niche activity. What with computer laser cutting machines and computer designed blueprints it is just so easy to manufacture the ARF's from the cheap labor overseas. As a personal opinion.........I have found the Seagull brand and the CMP brand of ARF's as the better brands of the ARF's in so far as perceived quality of manufacture. However even so I have to re-glue the joints and buttresses that are accessible simply because what looks like OK on the outside may not have enough glue on the inside. It is a fair trade off............cheap ARF's with the quality of computer laser cutting machines and cheap labor overseas to put it together and the buyer here in the USA re-gluing as much as is accessible on the ARF's. It is never a perfect world. Cheap ARF's have to be manufactured on overseas cheap labor with a lot of cutting corners on the glue joints. So we re-glue the joints as simple as that. On the inaccesible parts of the wing under the covering..........punch a little hole on the covering where you can insert the tip of the Gorilla Glue dispenser tube and then pump Gorilla Glue to strengthen the inside of the wing under the covering. Be sure to punch a little vent hole on the wing covering also for the Gorilla Glue to overflow when it expands. The wing will be heavier but it will be strong. The alternative is to peel back the covering and re-glue the wing ribs/spars and repair the covering back into the wing. It is still faster and easier than building from scratch or building from a kit. Don't expect the cheap overseas labor to put his/her heart and soul in putting out quality work. They work under a daily quota and have to pump out the ARF's or else get laid off. It is an assembly line job with lots of manual labor. Cheap ARF's have allowed us to do more flying hours instead of more kit building hours/scratch building hours. 'Nuff said.

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/9/2012 12:17 PM   
shamalam


 

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Status: offline 		Just started flying/crashing trainers last June, and have done enough aircraft repair to know I'd rather be flyin' than fixin.'  Recently got a Sig 4-star ARF, then read this thread; hope I didn't get a lemon.  I bought it based on hearing Sig is a good company, but the manual says something to the effect that, "Since this plane was constructed in a part of the world where there's more humidity, you might have to tighten covering over wood that has shrunk,"  but it didn't also say "We built this plane with as little glue as possible ..."  guess I'll call Sig to see what they recommend.   Again, rather be fliyin' than fixin.'  

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/9/2012 12:33 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: swify

I was looking at the Sig website a while back, didn't see many kits on it. I have a 4*star 120 kit that I bought probably 18 years ago, started to build it, then ended up moving and and quit flying for 14 years. I recently started working on it again as I took up flying once more. Used koverall on it and just in the process of painting it with dope. I have an OS 120 surpass pumped engine that I bought in 1994 and is still in the box to power it. Should be ready to go in a month or so.




Contact SIG about Koverall on your 120 before you go any further. There should have been a note in your manual to absolutely NOT use fabric covering on the 4 Star 120 as the Monokote type covering is a major structural component of that wing since it has no sheeting. The wing will twist and deform in flight if you simply replace fabric for the heat shrink plastic covering.



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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/9/2012 12:49 PM   
804


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: combatpigg

Well put Foodstick. It isn't possible to convey the difference between the two seperate eras to an audience so insecure in their own accomplishments that they take the generalized differences noted as a personal attack.


So why try?
Just sit back, shut the L up and let me enjoy my arf.

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/9/2012 4:06 PM   
Jaybird


 

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Status: offline 		Wow!

A lot of passion here about the state of the modeling world and the people in it. That doesn't make your opion right or wrong, but it does make it hard to see the big picture.

I thought the problem was with this one Sig ARF, not the entire generation of people who are now involved in RC both maunufacturers and consumers.

Specific observations about a certain kit are very benificial to those that have that kit and to others who have experienced or are thinking about experiencing something similar.

Sweeping generalizations about the morals and apptitudes of people you don't know are pretty useless.

So, what's the best way to help modelers who own this particular plane to enjoy it long as possible?

Jaybird

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/9/2012 6:27 PM   
combatpigg



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybird


So, what's the best way to help modelers who own this particular plane to enjoy it long as possible?

Jaybird


When I built my very 1st batch of control line combat planes... some of them had a habit of folding their wings. I peeled off the covering of one of the planes that hadn't been flown yet and re-enforced the middle 1/3 of wing with a full depth spar made out of 1/8" spruce. Gorilla Glue wasn't available back then or I would have used it. ..so I probably used epoxy. Then that plane got extensively tested before commiting the same repair technique to the rest of the planes. These planes need to be light as you can make them to be competitive.
The point here is you really need to make a good visual check with your own eyeballs inside the wing in order to see what looks like the potential failure points.
Having a good working knowledge of typical model plane carpentry/design for the size and weight of bird in question really helps..especially to help avoid fixes that could be way too heavy or way too light.
Stabbing a syringe in through the covering and blindly dumping glue inside the wing sounds like it should be made a "sticky DIY" thread over at the ARF forum...but it's not a method that I'd rely on.



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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/9/2012 6:45 PM   
combatpigg



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quote:

ORIGINAL: 804


quote:

ORIGINAL: combatpigg

Well put Foodstick. It isn't possible to convey the difference between the two seperate eras to an audience so insecure in their own accomplishments that they take the generalized differences noted as a personal attack.


So why try?
Just sit back, shut the L up and let me enjoy my arf.


The tiltle of this thread is "No More ARFs For Me"...which applies to me too.
It gives me a legitimate reason to chime in and to convey my ARF experiences.
As for you, this thread offers you an ideal venue for trolling a topic that you would like to see swept under the carpet ..but that's about it.


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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/9/2012 7:47 PM   
haikt


 

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Status: offline 		combatpig
i have seen your posts in the past on extreme speed forum and respect your know how but that does not give you a right to insult anyone who enjoys any other aspect of this hobby.
i also like to see new ideas at the field but also like to see the guy who can fly the hell out of an ARF and see his new 3d moves.
These are 2 separate areas of the hobby and dont need to be combined if the person does not feel like it.
also it is hard to build as good as the new arfs that are cad designed and laser cut in the garage with a scroll saw.
enjoy the part of the hobby you like afterall no one is trying to get your balsa away from you≥
for me i enjoy building more than flying but will only built planes that i cant buy as an arf, i also enjoy my arfs that i fly on weekends while i built whatever i am building

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/9/2012 8:01 PM   
combatpigg



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Status: offline 		If you are insulted by my generalized comments.......I apologize to you, [and to the millions of others who think what I've said applies directly to them] but I wont change what I have said already because I say what I think in all honesty....without attacking anyone [unprovoked], individually.



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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/9/2012 8:53 PM   
acerc



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Status: offline 		In regard's to the idea of the quality of an arf in kit form. Remove the covering and with very little effort to disassemble it becomes a kit. At least the Hanger-9 Corsair worked that way for me.



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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/9/2012 8:57 PM   
acerc



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Combat, I'm impressed. You give it an 8th grade level. I was under the impression that the third grade was the last grade they taught. I thought that 4-12 was all about passing the State and Federal test.




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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/9/2012 9:02 PM   
Jaybird


 

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Status: offline 		There we go, good information (about the Corsair).

I have built a couple of kits (box of balsa and plywood with plans) and made modifications to the assembly to suit what I wanted to do as well as improve the design, at least in my opinion.

I have assembled quite a few ARF's and made modifications to the assembly to suit what I wanted to do as well as improve the design, at least in my opinion.

The only ARF I've ever had an in-flight structural failure on was a Great Planes Electrifly Yak 54 (I think) which I CHANGED and made the wings removable (plug in) instead of glueing them solid to the fuse and each other. There wasn't enough structure without the root rib glued to the fuse and the spar snapped. No one's fault but mine.

Maybe if we start a thread that's titled..."What I hate about people who...blah-blah-blah"....it will turn into a discussion about airplanes!

Jaybird

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/9/2012 9:09 PM   
acerc



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Status: offline 		Speakin of planes, how you likeing that Waco?


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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/9/2012 9:19 PM   
Jaybird


 

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Status: offline 		LOVE IT!

It is so much fun to fly and looks great in the air. I just bought a Spektrum DX7s (oh-oh here's another fight'n topic) since I filled up my DX6i and had my first flights with it and the radio a couple of weekends ago. It was good except I programmed my aileron expo in the wrong direction and it was really twitchy. I landed, shut it down and reprogrammed it correctly and got in a couple more flights before the sun went down...which in now 6:05 p.m. up here! I made the top wing plug in which is a change from the design but I don't think I'll see the failure I saw with the electric Yak. I plan to add some more scale details through the winter for fun.

I'll be down in Florida the middle of next month and hope to visit Stickbuilder and see his shop. A Stearman flight at Fantasy of Flight is on the books too.

Jaybird

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/9/2012 9:23 PM   
acerc



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Status: offline 		That's some real nice work on that wing. My wing's come off in one piece. But to much rigging so I leave them on. As for the Specktrum, I had to program one for a club friend I'm building a cub for and I wish my Futaba was as easy. Guess what I'll buy next time? Let me know when and I'll go too. Of course my drive is shorter.


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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/9/2012 10:06 PM   
Jaybird


 

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Status: offline 		Thanks. It was a modification of another builder's change to the same ARF and it makes it really easy to set it up a the field. Rather than having to unbolt the cabane carry rack at four points with nuts and screws and then attach the upper wing with the same nuts and screws (but with less access), the two outer panels slide in and bolt in quite easily.

I didn't get to fly this past weekend as I was singing with my barbershop quartet on two shows while my son and his wife were having their first child (my first grandchild...I'm 52) and hour and half away! I drove down with my father (he's 94) between shows to meet my grandson Elijah and then we drove back in time for me to be on the second show that day. We spent the day Sunday travelling down and visiting some more. I see a future airplane nut like me!

He's a cutie!

Jaybird

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/9/2012 10:13 PM   
804


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: combatpigg


quote:

ORIGINAL: 804


quote:

ORIGINAL: combatpigg

Well put Foodstick. It isn't possible to convey the difference between the two seperate eras to an audience so insecure in their own accomplishments that they take the generalized differences noted as a personal attack.


So why try?
Just sit back, shut the L up and let me enjoy my arf.


The tiltle of this thread is ''No More ARFs For Me''...which applies to me too.
It gives me a legitimate reason to chime in and to convey my ARF experiences.
As for you, this thread offers you an ideal venue for trolling a topic that you would like to see swept under the carpet ..but that's about it.



And I have legitimate reason to refute your opinions. That's how forums work.

Since this has degenerated to name-calling,
in hope that Ken won't shut this thread down, I'll call it a day on this one. CP and I have butted heads more than enough.

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/9/2012 11:00 PM   
acdii


 

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Status: offline 		 You can use Koverall on the 120. There is a section on how to do it in the manual. Koverall is stronger than mono kore will ever be if done correctly.

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/10/2012 3:57 AM   
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Status: offline 		They recently did a TV show where they caused the controlled crash of a full size 727 ARF.

No kit available I guess...


Gerry



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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/10/2012 11:40 AM   
Luchnia


 

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They recently did a TV show where they caused the controlled crash of a full size 727 ARF.

No kit available I guess...


Gerry




Yes, why do they make those 727 ARFs? You would think they would have some kits somewhere you could buy. The same thing has happened with cars. The last car I bought was an ARR (Almost Ready to Ride).

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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/10/2012 3:01 PM   
GerKonig


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Luchnia


quote:

ORIGINAL: GerKonig

They recently did a TV show where they caused the controlled crash of a full size 727 ARF.

No kit available I guess...


Gerry




Yes, why do they make those 727 ARFs? You would think they would have some kits somewhere you could buy. The same thing has happened with cars. The last car I bought was an ARR (Almost Ready to Ride).



There are 727 kits, but the ARFs are way cheaper... Note: there are actually kit cars, you put them together... They look like expensive sport cars from way when...

Gerry


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RE: No more ARF's for me - 10/11/2012 7:43 PM   
swify


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MartyH


quote:

ORIGINAL: swify

I was looking at the Sig website a while back, didn't see many kits on it. I have a 4*star 120 kit that I bought probably 18 years ago, started to build it, then ended up moving and and quit flying for 14 years. I recently started working on it again as I took up flying once more. Used koverall on it and just in the process of painting it with dope. I have an OS 120 surpass pumped engine that I bought in 1994 and is still in the box to power it. Should be ready to go in a month or so.




Contact SIG about Koverall on your 120 before you go any further. There should have been a note in your manual to absolutely NOT use fabric covering on the 4 Star 120 as the Monokote type covering is a major structural component of that wing since it has no sheeting. The wing will twist and deform in flight if you simply replace fabric for the heat shrink plastic covering.



Bit late for that the plane is already covered and painted with dope, however the manual gives instructions on using koverall and I think once it is shrunk and doped it gives more strength to the wing than a monocote type coverings anyway.

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