Starting a P-40 By Brodak

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Don B.H. -> Starting a P-40 By Brodak (10/4/2012 9:55 PM)
Just got this in. A .19 size P-40

BtnFlyGuy -> RE: Starting a P-40 By Brodak (10/5/2012 12:30 AM)
That workbench is way too tidy...

dennis -> RE: Starting a P-40 By Brodak (10/5/2012 1:50 AM)
It's on the small side and even a Brodak 15 is large for the model. A good Norvel 074 or OS10 will fly it really well without excessive speed or weight. Dennis

Don B.H. -> RE: Starting a P-40 By Brodak (10/5/2012 4:44 PM)
Yes, BTN flyguy the work bench is neat... But if you look at the last photo you will see the mess in the background...... Dennis the Magnum .15 XLS fits right in there and I ordered a O.S. Venturi fot it. The Magnum .15 with a OS .25 Venturi and needle will turn 20,000 rpms and it sips fuel so 2 Oz. will run it 4 minuts or more. I will run it rich with a 8 X 3 prop and that should get me in the 50 MPH range.

paw080 -> RE: Starting a P-40 By Brodak (10/6/2012 6:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Don B.H. Yes, BTN flyguy the work bench is neat... But if you look at the last photo you will see the mess in the background...... Dennis the Magnum .15 XLS fits right in there and I ordered a O.S. Venturi fot it. The Magnum .15 with a OS .25 Venturi and needle will turn 20,000 rpms and it sips fuel so 2 Oz. will run it 4 minuts or more. I will run it rich with a 8 X 3 prop and that should get me in the 50 MPH range. Hi Don, Dennis is right, the wing area is WAY too small for even a .15 anything. It'll fly with your .15 Magnum. However, the performance will be less than stellar, because of the very high wing loading of your finished model. You'll surely need to add tail weight to move the CG to optimal performance. The Brodak model is a re-kit of the Sterling line which also featured a profile ME-109. I eyeballed this model from a Sterling kit and estimated the wing area to be around 140 sq"s. I fly a Ringmaster Jr (195 sq" wing) that is powered by a PAW .049 diesel, it literally flys like a combat model on 44' X .008" lines, and it is going 54mph. It weighs 7.125 ozs ready to fly sans fuel. It flys an entire stunt pattern with 1/2 oz of fuel. With all that being said, I do like your model, and I'm sure it will be a lot of fun for you. Tony

Don B.H. -> RE: Starting a P-40 By Brodak (10/6/2012 8:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: paw080 Hi Don, Dennis is right, the wing area is WAY too small for even a .15 anything. It'll fly with your .15 Magnum. However, the performance will be less than stellar, because of the very high wing loading of your finished model. You'll surely need to add tail weight to move the CG to optimal performance. The Brodak model is a re-kit of the Sterling line which also featured a profile ME-109. I eyeballed this model from a Sterling kit and estimated the wing area to be around 140 sq"s. I fly a Ringmaster Jr (195 sq" wing) that is powered by a PAW .049 diesel, it literally flys like a combat model on 44' X .008" lines, and it is going 54mph. It weighs 7.125 ozs ready to fly sans fuel. It flys an entire stunt pattern with 1/2 oz of fuel. With all that being said, I do like your model, and I'm sure it will be a lot of fun for you. Tony Hello! Tony, I have the Ringmaster Jr and I have the ME109 on order. So do you think the .09 would be better for these models? I don't even see .09 engines listed anywhere. OS has a .10 LA for RC

greggles47 -> RE: Starting a P-40 By Brodak (10/7/2012 10:09 AM)
quote: = I will run it rich with a 8 X 3 prop and that should get me in the 50 MPH range. At 50mph the poor thing will be dropping out of the air. A smallish wing like that needs to have some airspeed around 70mph before it begins to operate in any sort of competent manner. I build what we call 2.5 (.15) Slow combat models. At least 44" span and 8" chord. It still flies relatively fast, but will turn tight and doesnt slow down when asked to perform. Regards Greg

dennis -> RE: Starting a P-40 By Brodak (10/7/2012 10:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: greggles47 quote: = I will run it rich with a 8 X 3 prop and that should get me in the 50 MPH range. At 50mph the poor thing will be dropping out of the air. Greg, With wing area about the same as a jr Ringmaster it doesn't have to go 70 MPH or it will drop out of the air. I have 2 of the Jr Rings with OS10FP on them and fly with 55 ft .012 line. The both of them are quite capable of doing most anything you would want to do even a 4 leaf clover. Speed is more then adaquate. Prop is a 7/5 APC and a Rev-up 7/6 narrow respectively. Haven't used a 15 on any of the old designs as it simply isn't necessary. and weight and balance are real factors so equiped. Brodak apparently was making them for his 15 but really could have made much better choices then these 2 models. As I said a Norvel .074 will fly these models well if kept light and the 049 on an appropriately built model would probably be a nice sport model . For reference there have been several contest Ringmaster S-1 models powered with 15's. Modern engines are light years ahead of the old powerplants we had 50 years ago. If Don has an 09 and wants to fly with it,it will be a very good sport model. an Enya 09 would be very good and they make 3 different models.All are available as C/l engines. A smallish wing like that needs to have some airspeed around 70mph before it begins to operate in any sort of competent manner. I build what we call 2.5 (.15) Slow combat models. At least 44'' span and 8'' chord. It still flies relatively fast, but will turn tight and doesnt slow down when asked to perform. Regards Greg

greggles47 -> RE: Starting a P-40 By Brodak (10/7/2012 11:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dennis quote: ORIGINAL: greggles47 quote: = I will run it rich with a 8 X 3 prop and that should get me in the 50 MPH range. At 50mph the poor thing will be dropping out of the air. Greg, With wing area about the same as a jr Ringmaster it doesn't have to go 70 MPH or it will drop out of the air. I have 2 of the Jr Rings with OS10FP on them and fly with 55 ft .012 line. The both of them are quite capable of doing most anything you would want to do even a 4 leaf clover. Speed is more then adaquate. Prop is a 7/5 APC and a Rev-up 7/6 narrow respectively. Haven't used a 15 on any of the old designs as it simply isn't necessary. and weight and balance are real factors so equiped. Brodak apparently was making them for his 15 but really could have made much better choices then these 2 models. As I said a Norvel .074 will fly these models well if kept light and the 049 on an appropriately built model would probably be a nice sport model . For reference there have been several contest Ringmaster S-1 models powered with 15's. Modern engines are light years ahead of the old powerplants we had 50 years ago. If Don has an 09 and wants to fly with it,it will be a very good sport model. an Enya 09 would be very good and they make 3 different models.All are available as C/l engines. A smallish wing like that needs to have some airspeed around 70mph before it begins to operate in any sort of competent manner. I build what we call 2.5 (.15) Slow combat models. At least 44'' span and 8'' chord. It still flies relatively fast, but will turn tight and doesnt slow down when asked to perform. Regards Greg Dennis, You pays your money & you can do what you like. I know what I like & it works for me, good luck to anyone who has different recipe for their fun. G

Don B.H. -> RE: Starting a P-40 By Brodak (10/7/2012 2:20 PM)
So it looks like I am building a GOOD YEAR RACER class plane as this is the size I put .15 s on in 1984. but i think they were going faster then 70 mph.... If I had an .09 I would use it............. I do have a box of .049 and I do have a Gilbert .070............................................................................ The Buster and the Shoestring racer, go fast and burn circles.....

gcb -> RE: Starting a P-40 By Brodak (10/7/2012 4:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Don B.H. So it looks like I am building a GOOD YEAR RACER class plane as this is the size I put .15 s on in 1984. but i think they were going faster then 70 mph.... If I had an .09 I would use it............. I do have a box of .049 and I do have a Gilbert .070............................................................................ The Buster and the Shoestring racer, go fast and burn circles..... First, forget the .049's and the Gilbert .07. Matt Kania designed the kit for a .15 of the mid 1950's. The .15's available during that time included the OK Cub .14, K&B .15, Cameron .15, and finally the Fox .15. They were just starting to import foreign engines. As you have surmised a good .10 of today has more power than those, and because of the muffler, more weight. If you put a .15 on it you will probably need to add tail weight for an even higher wing loading. I would go with the .10. Of course your plane, your choice. Good luck either way. George

paw080 -> RE: Starting a P-40 By Brodak (10/7/2012 4:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: gcb First, forget the .049's and the Gilbert .07. Matt Kania designed the kit for a .15 of the mid 1950's. The .15's available during that time included the OK Cub .14, K&B .15, Cameron .15, and finally the Fox .15. They were just starting to import foreign engines. As you have surmised a good .10 of today has more power than those, and because of the muffler, more weight. If you put a .15 on it you will probably need to add tail weight for an even higher wing loading. I would go with the .10. Of course your plane, your choice. Good luck either way. George Hi George, Those models will fly well with a LIGHT weight .09. The Ringmaster Jr showed a Cub .099 and a Torp .09 and a Torp .15 engine on the original plans. My first Ring Jr was powered with a Cub .099. The Cub weighed only 1.77 ozs. It flew very well on 35' X .012" lines. It actually was full pattern capable; but that was in 1954, so I wasn't. A friend of mine flew a complete stunt pattern with it in 1956. This experience prodded me(over 35 years later) to start using smaller than suggested engines for the Jr. My first smaller displacement model used an AM 10(1.0cc) diesel. It flew magnificently on 40' X .008" lines. The next models used PAW .049 diesels, I did cut a bunch of pork by slimming the fuselage, reduced stab and fin area and subsituted the empannage with "C" grain 3/32" sheet. Oh yes, I shortened the nose to accomodate CG and tank size. The PAW .049s have more power than the AM 10 and are a bit lighter. The Paw .049 will fly a stock Jr with careful attention to weight and wood choices. My last two Jrs weighed 7.125 and 7.25 ozs, ready to fly sans fuel. I don't remember what my 1954 Jr weighed, but my late 1980's(stock kit) AM 10 model weighs 9.8-10.1 ozs depending on prop used. I fly the latest Jrs on 44' X .008" lines. Yes, I agree to forget about using his .049s and the Gilbert .07. Tony

paw080 -> RE: Starting a P-40 By Brodak (10/7/2012 4:59 PM)
[/quote] Hello! Tony, I have the Ringmaster Jr and I have the ME109 on order. So do you think the .09 would be better for these models? I don't even see .09 engines listed anywhere. OS has a .10 LA for RC [/quote] Hi Don, just consider the .09's as .10s, most .09s were really .099 cu"s. Look around for .10's from Enya or OS 10 with control line venturis on ebay or even advertise in you local hobby shop. I do not recommend going the diesel route, because I suspect you have no experience with them. also consider 1.0 cc(.061cu"s) and .07 cu" engines. Tony

Jim Thomerson -> RE: Starting a P-40 By Brodak (10/7/2012 8:32 PM)
I built and flew a Ringmaster Jr with a Torp 15 back around 1960. I didn't fly the pattern then, but did lots of lazy 8's. As I recall I flew it on lines advertised as 52.5 feet. the comment about most USA 09's being like .099 is true. The exceptions, 1.5cc, are the Cox 09s and the Johnson Bulldog 09.

dennis -> RE: Starting a P-40 By Brodak (10/7/2012 10:18 PM)
I flew my first Jr Ringmaster in the mid fifties with a Cub 15 which was pitiful on power as anyone my age can attest to. Next was the Fox Rocket 15 steel fin. This was no world beater but it was better then the Cub and at 3 oz was not excessively heavy. About the same as the Torp15.Todays small engines are light years ahead of 1950's technology and is reflected by the smaller better engines that are now available. I have no urge to relive the old days engine wise but it is really fun to fly the old designs with the power to make them perform like the designers would have liked them to have. Thankfully as I said this time smaller is better. Dennis

Don B.H. -> RE: Starting a P-40 By Brodak (10/7/2012 10:34 PM)
I just ordered the OS .10LA as it is half the weight of the Magnum XLS. OS.10LA is bushing and the Mag is a bearing engine, so half the weight close to same rpm and prop. My first plane was flowen in the late 50's but my Dad flew it as I was to little, about 8.

dennis -> RE: Starting a P-40 By Brodak (10/8/2012 6:32 PM)
Both of these are OS10FP powered. You will be well satisfied with your choice

Don B.H. -> RE: Starting a P-40 By Brodak (10/8/2012 8:07 PM)
You see what I am working on along with the P-40.. I realy like the red and white checker board ringmaster you have..............

BtnFlyGuy -> RE: Starting a P-40 By Brodak (10/8/2012 8:15 PM)
What guage/length lines do you use on the Ringmaster JR? I have an Enya .09 to put in mine.

paw080 -> RE: Starting a P-40 By Brodak (10/8/2012 9:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BtnFlyGuy What guage/length lines do you use on the Ringmaster JR? I have an Enya .09 to put in mine. Hi Guy, .012" will be perfect. If you are very careful, .008" lines would be even better. The problem with .008" lines is that they are easily kinked and damaged. Line length can be 45' to 52' for your .09 model. My 1.0cc diesel Ring Jr model originaly flew on 35' X .012" lines because I had a lot of 1/2A Combat lines left over. Later I changed to 44' X .008" lines for this and subsequent PAW .049 diesel powered Jrs; the models flew much better. I am referring to stranded cable when I say lines. Tony

BtnFlyGuy -> RE: Starting a P-40 By Brodak (10/9/2012 1:14 AM)
Thanks for the input, Tony. I picked up a set of .012X35' lines at a swap meet and a RMJr as well. I hope the lines aren't too short.

paw080 -> RE: Starting a P-40 By Brodak (10/9/2012 2:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dennis Both of these are OS10FP powered. You will be well satisfied with your choice Hi Dennis as a fun comparison, here is my Ringmaster Jr (much modified) that is PAW .049 powered. It flys beautifully and handles very much like a 1/2A Combat model flying 10-12 mph slower. I have posted some pics in the Shoestring thread, so I'll post some different ones here. Tony

dennis -> RE: Starting a P-40 By Brodak (10/9/2012 3:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: paw080 quote: ORIGINAL: dennis Both of these are OS10FP powered. You will be well satisfied with your choice Hi Dennis as a fun comparison, here is my Ringmaster Jr (much modified) that is PAW .049 powered. It flys beautifully and handles very much like a 1/2A Combat model flying 10-12 mph slower. I have posted some pics in the Shoestring thread, so I'll post some different ones here. Tony Tony, Thats a nice set up and a good looking model. I have one origional Jr Ringmaster left and one new manufacture Pat King kit. The red&white is a Pat King kit, the silkspan yellow is an Estes. But the next one was going to have a Paw 061 simply because I like to use longer lines and 55 foot seems to work for me. Incidentally as you know newer manufactured kits have infinitely better wood then Sterling had in their offerings. To Don, The covering is Ultrakote red/white checkers covering. It's worth $26 a roll simply to not have to paint them on a model. They can be had from 1/2 inch to 4 inch. Also available in other colors.

Don B.H. -> RE: Starting a P-40 By Brodak (10/10/2012 11:10 PM)
Wll in the first photo you see my old Enya .19VI and it fit then a I pulled out the Magnum .15XLS and refit the smaller engine now I am waiting for the new OS.10LA engines to get here. That is holding up 2 planes now this one and the Ringmaster Jr and now I need smaller lines, So I ordered some .12 cable 7 strand. I have .15 by 55 ft. but they will be to large I think.... I am doing all this because I want the stellar performance.....

paw080 -> RE: Starting a P-40 By Brodak (10/11/2012 2:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Don B.H. Wll in the first photo you see my old Enya .19VI and it fit then a I pulled out the Magnum .15XLS and refit the smaller engine now I am waiting for the new OS.10LA engines to get here. That is holding up 2 planes now this one and the Ringmaster Jr and now I need smaller lines, So I ordered some .12 cable 7 strand. I have .15 by 55 ft. but they will be to large I think.... I am doing all this because I want the stellar performance..... Hi Don, Yeah, I think the 55' X .015" lines willl be too much drag for your OS .10 LA. I have flown a T.D. .09 powered Jr Flite Streak on 52' X .012" lines before, it had plenty of line tension, even during overhead stuff. Can you do me/us a favor and calculate a wing area estimate for the P-40 model? I'm assuming the Brodak Me 109 kit would be about the same. I'm blaming you for starting this thread, because now I'm seriously thinking of buying Brodak's Me 109 repro kit. The wing area estimate will tell me what engine displacement range I can use to power the model. I would likely do a bit of wood substitution, like I always do. [:D] Thanks Tony

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