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Old new car question,please see what you think - 10/5/2012 3:35 PM   
nitroholic


 

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Status: offline 		 I have a 1997 xr7 cougar with a 4.6 v8,it's efi direct injection.I was running 87 regular fuel,then it was pinging,so i ran 93 high octane,it ran a lot better.Well one day i was a little short so i had to run regular 87%.My goodness it ran crappier then ever,it's almost as if it actually got addicted to premium.My question is,i wonder if on an empty tank if i put about 1 pint of Odonnel 20% speed blend r/c fuel in then filled it with premium.Think it would run extremely well or posibly damage either the engine or ever the fuel injectors?I just would like your opinion,i don't know if i really would risk it but i just wonder.Thanks.

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RE: Old new car question,please see what you think - 10/5/2012 4:10 PM   
Mister Sinister


 

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Status: offline 		Don't do it. RC Fuel contains lubricants, since 2-cycle engines do not have seperate oiling systems. At best, you run the risk of damaging some engine sensors. At worst, the alcohol in the fuel can do some serious damage to the rubber and plastic parts in your fuel system, especially considering the age of the car. This is the same problem (though over a longer period of time) with the Ethanol blended crap you get from thre pumps today, when used in older cars.

If it pings on 87, but not on 93, it probably needs a tune-up, IF you don't have a check engine light. Some LIGHT pinging is normal, though. I'll assume from the year that it's got some mileage on it, so I'm sure it can use it. Start with spark plugs, plug wires, O2 sensors, fuel and air filters. You can also try running some Seafoam through it via the fuel system and vacuum system. It really does work. This removes built up carbon and gunk in the engine and it's vacuum operated systems. I did this on my old 96 Lincoln Mark VIII with the DOHC 4.6 and it cured it's rough running and poor fuel mileage. I also do it on my hot rod once per year, to keep it cleaned out. There's tutorials all over youtube showing you how to use it in your vacuum system. For the fuel system, just dump a bottle in before your next fill up. 
Those 4.6 engines are pretty solid, but like any engine, you need to maintain it if you expect it to run at its best.


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RE: Old new car question,please see what you think - 10/5/2012 5:42 PM   
nitroholic


 

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Status: offline 		Okay that was really informing.I never even thought about all the sensors.I really appreciate it.It does have 120k on it too.Thanks. 

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RE: Old new car question,please see what you think - 10/5/2012 6:55 PM   
iexion



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Status: offline 		My MX6 runs on 91. Gets better mpg then on 87 and it doesnt mess with the plugs. Dont know who said it but all cars would run better on 91 cuz it burns hotter or something to that note. Im not a gas expert by anymeans but I personally try to avoid ethanol blends being my car is older (kinda in line with what Sinister said).

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RE: Old new car question,please see what you think - 10/5/2012 7:14 PM   
cumminspower5.9



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Status: offline 		When you run a higher blend, the engine does run hotter which "cleans it out". I don't understand why it would act up switching to regular fuel. Maybe not enough additives? Sinister is right tho, run some fuel system cleaner in her. It will clean injectors, ports, and get something to clean the valves and cylinders. then next oil change, throw in some motor honey or lucas oil for max lubrication.


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RE: Old new car question,please see what you think - 10/5/2012 8:35 PM   
Mister Sinister


 

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Status: offline 		Octane ratings exist purely to describe the anti-knock characteristics of the fuel, or it's tendency to burn in a uniform or controlled manner, and have nothing to due with the energy characteristics of the fuel. The energy value of fuel is a much more complex science. The higher the octane, the lower the energy value. This is further compounded by Ethanol, which adds octane at the expense of energy value. It sounds backwards, but that's how it works. 
Most modern vehicles are desingned to run on 87 octane, but factors like driving habits, vehicle condition, weather, etc. can have an effect, so sometimes higher octane is needed to prevent knock. Some performance cars (particularly turbo/supercharged) need higher octane fuel, because the pressures inside the cylinders is higher than that of normal cars. Lower octane fuel can light off when it's not supposed to in these vehicles (detonation), and cause all sorts of chaos.
Many argue that there is no benefit to be had running a higher octane, but there's also a lot of people who say they can feel a difference. My Wrangler pings on 87 octane, and it has since day 1, even though that's what it's designed to run on. So I run 89 or 93 in it. Jeep sayus the ping is normal and within the realm of acceptable, but I prefer to not have it ping at all. It costs me maybe $2 extra, I feel it's worth it. In my 55 Chevy, I have to run 93 octane due to it's higher than normal compression and timing curves.


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RE: Old new car question,please see what you think - 10/5/2012 9:00 PM   
Anthoop



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Status: offline 		Higher octane fuel allows more advanced ignition timing...if you have a lower octane fuel than normal then you will need to retard the ign timing to prevent pinking.

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RE: Old new car question,please see what you think - 10/6/2012 12:11 AM   
nitroholic


 

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Status: offline 		Now i was down in DE last week and before heading back up here to my place in PA i filled up.Down in DE the highest is 91,up here it's 93.Cause i seen you wrote 91.I geuss stations and states are different.idk i know for a couple xtra $'s i just use the premium everywhere.Runs the best on it so.........................The middle grade is okay in it too but for what 3 or 4 cents more just go with the highest.I know we're not really supposed to write about r/c in this section,but i miss my cars (r/c).Thinking of getting another jato.Sure was fun,should of never sold it.Thanks guys. 

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RE: Old new car question,please see what you think - 10/6/2012 4:42 AM   
Mister Sinister


 

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Status: offline 		Plenty of 93 in Delaware, it must have just been the station you were at.


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RE: Old new car question,please see what you think - 10/7/2012 9:30 PM   
proanti1



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthoop

Higher octane fuel allows more advanced ignition timing...if you have a lower octane fuel than normal then you will need to retard the ign timing to prevent pinking.

It's purely about compression, not timing. The pinging is the fuel igniting under compression.

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RE: Old new car question,please see what you think - 10/8/2012 3:47 AM   
The Hedgehog



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quote:

ORIGINAL: proanti1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthoop

Higher octane fuel allows more advanced ignition timing...if you have a lower octane fuel than normal then you will need to retard the ign timing to prevent pinking.

It's purely about compression, not timing. The pinging is the fuel igniting under compression.


WHICH can be affected by modifying the timing.

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RE: Old new car question,please see what you think - 10/8/2012 1:48 PM   
Mister Sinister


 

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Status: offline 		Pinging is the air/fuel mixture igniting OUTSIDE of the flame front, meaning not where/when optimum combustion happens in the cylinder. It's typically caused by a hot spot in the cylinder, which can often be caused by too much timing advance. Timing only affects cylinder pressure, not compression. Compression is a function of mechanical variables, like piston design, cylinder head design, head gasket thickness, etc. Cylinder pressure can be affected by timing, air/fuel ratio, engine rpm, etc. Compression is determined by the difference in cylinder volume when the piston is at the bottom of its stroke, to the top of its stroke.


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RE: Old new car question,please see what you think - 10/8/2012 7:33 PM   
Anthoop



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quote:

ORIGINAL: proanti
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthoop
Higher octane fuel allows more advanced ignition timing...if you have a lower octane fuel than normal then you will need to retard the ign timing to prevent pinking.

It's purely about compression, not timing. The pinging is the fuel igniting under compression.

Cmon. If I have change to a lower octane fuel and the engine pinks then retarding the ignition will prevent pinking.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mister Sinister

Pinging is the air/fuel mixture igniting OUTSIDE of the flame front, meaning not where/when optimum combustion happens in the cylinder. It's typically caused by a hot spot in the cylinder, which can often be caused by too much timing advance.

It sounds as though you are confusing pinking with pre-ignition?

< Message edited by Anthoop -- 10/8/2012 8:03 PM >

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RE: Old new car question,please see what you think - 10/8/2012 9:36 PM   
Mister Sinister


 

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Status: offline 		For an engine to "ping", something has to ignite a pocket of air and fuel outside of the controlled burn in the cylinder. Detonation or knock is what occurs in relation to incorrect ignition timing on the combustion stroke. Pre-ignition is what occurs due to a physical issue inside the cylinder (hot spots), and occurs outside of the ignition process.  Both are "pings", but for different reasons. Prolonged detonation can also lead to pre-ignition, by super-heating the cylinder. Since we don't know what exactly is happening with his engine (and since ignition timing is not adjustable on the Ford 4.6 engine), I can only assume something outside of the combustion process is causing his ping (or pre-ignition to be more specific in this case). Carbon deposits, faulty EGR system, etc.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthoop

quote:

ORIGINAL: proanti
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthoop
Higher octane fuel allows more advanced ignition timing...if you have a lower octane fuel than normal then you will need to retard the ign timing to prevent pinking.

It's purely about compression, not timing. The pinging is the fuel igniting under compression.

Cmon. If I have change to a lower octane fuel and the engine pinks then retarding the ignition will prevent pinking.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mister Sinister

Pinging is the air/fuel mixture igniting OUTSIDE of the flame front, meaning not where/when optimum combustion happens in the cylinder. It's typically caused by a hot spot in the cylinder, which can often be caused by too much timing advance.

It sounds as though you are confusing pinking with pre-ignition?



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RE: Old new car question,please see what you think - 10/8/2012 10:56 PM   
Anthoop



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Status: offline 		In my world pinking refers to a meeting of pressure fronts...the fuel is not being ignited without the spark plug....retarding the timing will prevent pinking.
I did not realise that the engine in question has unadjustable ign. timing....I must stop posting in US car threads eh? Sorry.
I would be thinking more along the lines of fuel mixture (check will also show faulty EGR) and engine temperature if it should be capable of running that octane fuel.

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RE: Old new car question,please see what you think - 10/9/2012 12:13 AM   
Mister Sinister


 

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Status: offline 		Not totally unadjustable, but you have to buy and install a timing adjuster (common on modded 4.6 Mustangs) to do it.
Me? I prefer carburetors.



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RE: Old new car question,please see what you think - 10/9/2012 5:22 PM   
Anthoop



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Me? I prefer carburetors.

Me too. Gone are the days when you could give a car a tune up on a Sunday afternoon on your driveway.

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RE: Old new car question,please see what you think - 10/9/2012 6:13 PM   
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Status: offline 		On the other hand, now you have the ability to make the engine runs well at all range vs. a specific band.. and you don't have to mess with physically taking things apart.. plug in a laptop and do your magic there.. !

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RE: Old new car question,please see what you think - 10/9/2012 7:12 PM   
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Status: offline 		Carburetors for a daily driver? *^%(^% NOOOOOOOOOO

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RE: Old new car question,please see what you think - 10/9/2012 7:31 PM   
Mister Sinister


 

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Status: offline 		Very true, but to a limited extent. The only way to really increase horsepower is to change engine components.An engine is basically just a big air pump. The amount of air it can move is restricted by its components.
Boosted vehicles respond a little better to tuning changes, and diesels really respond well.
 
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On the other hand, now you have the ability to make the engine runs well at all range vs. a specific band.. and you don't have to mess with physically taking things apart.. plug in a laptop and do your magic there.. !



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RE: Old new car question,please see what you think - 10/9/2012 7:32 PM   
proanti1



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthoop

quote:

ORIGINAL: proanti
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthoop
Higher octane fuel allows more advanced ignition timing...if you have a lower octane fuel than normal then you will need to retard the ign timing to prevent pinking.

It's purely about compression, not timing. The pinging is the fuel igniting under compression.

Cmon. If I have change to a lower octane fuel and the engine pinks then retarding the ignition will prevent pinking.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mister Sinister

Pinging is the air/fuel mixture igniting OUTSIDE of the flame front, meaning not where/when optimum combustion happens in the cylinder. It's typically caused by a hot spot in the cylinder, which can often be caused by too much timing advance.

It sounds as though you are confusing pinking with pre-ignition?

Pinging is preignition. It's the fuel igniting before the plug fires. It rarely has to do with timing, as you would have to advance 10s of degrees for it to happen, and a car doesn't come that far out of time on its own.

C'mon, everyone knows this.

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RE: Old new car question,please see what you think - 10/9/2012 7:51 PM   
The Hedgehog



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It rarely has to do with timing, as you would have to advance 10s of degrees for it to happen, and a car doesn't come that far out of time on its own.

C'mon, everyone knows this.


10 degress? I have had experience where only a degree or 2 will cause pinging. huh?

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RE: Old new car question,please see what you think - 10/9/2012 7:56 PM   
Mister Sinister


 

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Status: offline 		Why not? It's how people got around for decades before fuel injection became standard. I could drive my 55 every day if I could afford the gas, but that's a product of the modifications I've made to it, not how it was originally designed. I've owned daily drivers that were carbureted, and they were of no more bother than other fuel injected vehicles I've owned, but I am particular about maintenance. Granted, cars used to not be a "turn the key and forget it" as people THINK they are today, you had to pay a little more attention to your vehicle in the carburetor days. If anything, modern vehicles have made drivers lazy, and many neglect basic manitnenance, because they never think about it.
As far as mileage and emissions are concerned, you can get almost the same mileage out of a carbureted engine that you can get from fuel injection, but you have to keep it tuned. Efficiency is still the same concept, regardless of how you atomize your air and fuel mixture. My father owns a 59 Corvette. He's had it for almost 50 years. It's got the base 283 engine with 230 horsepower, and a 2 speed powerglide transmission. When he stays on top of the tune, this car will knock down almost 30mpg highway, and burn just as clean as a modern non-LEV car. And modern vehicles still pollute plenty. That rotten-egg smell you get from some cars when you really step on them? That's caused by hydrogen sulfide, a by-product of the conversion process.. Hydrogen sulfide that is released into the atmosphere, and when it mixes with water in rain clouds, creates sulphuric acid, or acid rain. If anything, until recent years emissions equipment did little to improve emissions over older cars, but went a long way towards reducing horsepower, increasing fuel consumption, and increasing the heat generated by the combustion process, not even to mention the added cost of developing and installing all this equipment, that got passed directly on to the consumer. All this has thankfully changed due to advancements in technology and design.
It always makes me laught to see claims of 45mpg being a big deal. You could easily get that on a bad day with an 80's Honda Civic with a carburetor. The trouble came when vehicles startred getting bigger, heavier, more powerful, and arguably safer. We're just now getting back to where we were with fuel economy in the early to mid 80's with hybrid vehicles.

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Carburetors for a daily driver? *^%(^% NOOOOOOOOOO



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RE: Old new car question,please see what you think - 10/9/2012 8:09 PM   
The Hedgehog



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The trouble came when vehicles startred getting bigger, heavier, more powerful, and arguably safer. We're just now getting back to where we were with fuel economy in the early to mid 80's with hybrid vehicles.






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RE: Old new car question,please see what you think - 10/9/2012 8:27 PM   
Mister Sinister


 

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Status: offline 		I've seen that, and the outcome shouln't surprise anyone. Like I said, cars have become bigger, heavier, and faster, so they HAD to become more safe. Not to say you were better off getting in an accident back in 1950, but the test they performed is misleading. Crash the 2009 Impala into a dump truck, and you get the picture. The simple fact of the matter is more people die in car accidents when based on number of drivers on the road now than they did back then. Safety has come a long way, but it had to. The average speed and mass of today's vehicles is greater than those of the old days. Are we better off now? Depends how you look at it.
But I'll tell you this, and I know from having driven plenty of both, old cars hold up a lot better in low speed crashes than modern vehicles do. Tap someone's bumper and it's going to cost you $1500 to fix. Do it with an old car, and you might scuff the chrome. Again, new cars are superior in size, speed, and agility, but because of all this, they had to be safer as well. It's all relative.

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Hedgehog

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mister Sinister
The trouble came when vehicles startred getting bigger, heavier, more powerful, and arguably safer. We're just now getting back to where we were with fuel economy in the early to mid 80's with hybrid vehicles.








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