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Having trouble on first start. Need some help - 10/8/2012 12:40 AM   
Scuba-Steve


 

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Status: offline 		I know this is obviously a pretty dumb question, but it is annoying me pretty badely.  Im trying to start my first engine for the first time to break it in.  I am chicken sticking it.  I put my finger over the carb, and from the front of the plane turn the prop clockwise to get fuel into the lines.  The directions say counterclockwise, but I assume this is from the rear of the plane.  Its the only way I can get fuel to flow.  I then connect my glow starter, turn the plane on, turn the transmitter on, open the carb 1/4 to 1/8 open (tried both).  Either way I turn the prop with the chicken stick I hear the sound of it trying to fire slightly, but eventually the prop nut comes loose.  Either way.  You would think only one direction (the wrong direction) would cause this to happen.  What am I doing wrong.  BTW I have an Avistar Elite RTR.


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RE: Having trouble on first start. Need some help - 10/8/2012 12:54 AM   
guver


 

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Status: offline 		It is indeed the wrong way. It is ccw looking from the front.

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RE: Having trouble on first start. Need some help - 10/8/2012 12:54 AM   
Live Wire


 

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Status: offline 		First your propnut is not tight anough which will cause the prop to slip when cranked over. Next you crank the plane counter clockwise from the front. Be carefull the engine will start from both directions for a short time but will only run right in the counter clock wise rotation. Primeing is done in the starting direction.
Larry K

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RE: Having trouble on first start. Need some help - 10/8/2012 12:58 AM   
alan0899


 

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Status: offline 		G'Day Mate,
You are assuming incorrectly, as the instructions say, counterclockwise is the correct direction, looking from the front of the engine.
OK here's how you do it, DO NOT connect anything to the glow plug, yet, read the instructions, & do exactly what they say, the main needle valve should be open about 3 to 4 turns,
then open the carby fully, put finger over the carby to seal it, & turn the propellor counterclockwise, 4 or 5 turns, don't flick it, turn it.
You should see fuel flowing into the engine, through the fuel line.
Remove your finger, & flick the prop over 4 or 5 times, with the chicken stick, for safety.
Close the throttle to about 1/8 th open, connect glow driver to glow plug, & flick, with the stick, COUNTERCLOCKWISE.
It should at least fire. keep flicking as hard as you can, & it should start.
NOW, go to a club & ask questions, you will learn more in 5 minutes with experienced guys, than you will on here, in a month.

Best of luck,
Cheers

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RE: Having trouble on first start. Need some help - 10/8/2012 1:04 AM   
Scuba-Steve


 

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Status: offline 		Ok, thank you.  Next question, because it is not described.  There are 4 peices to the prop shaft.  Spinner plate, prop, washer, nut.  I have it assembled in that order, but have tried putting the washer in different places.

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RE: Having trouble on first start. Need some help - 10/8/2012 1:20 AM   
alan0899


 

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From: AttungaNSW, AUSTRALIA
Status: offline 		G'day Mate,
You have them in the right order, as far as I can determine, BUT your prop nut MUST be tight, use the right spanner, sorry, wrench, that fits properly.
Then put the spinner cone on.
Be aware, the engine will run without the spinner, it is only there for use with an electric starter, & it looks pretty.
The prop should be positioned, at 3 o'clock, as the engine is coming up to compression.
So you get a good flick over, with a chicken stick.
These are some of the things that you would learn in seconds at a club flying field.
Good luck

Cheers.

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RE: Having trouble on first start. Need some help - 10/8/2012 1:24 AM   
Live Wire


 

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Status: offline 		Steve
You have ir right, Is your spinner plastic if so I would leave it off until you get the engine running then put it back on. The plastic spinner has a bad habbit of slipping on the shaft. You have to have the nut estra tight to keep it from slipping.
Larry k

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RE: Having trouble on first start. Need some help - 10/8/2012 1:28 AM   
Live Wire


 

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One thing I will say! There is no such thing as a dumb question when it come to starting an engine, you can get hurt by not getting the right answers

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RE: Having trouble on first start. Need some help - 10/8/2012 1:31 AM   
Gray Beard


 

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Status: offline 		2 to 2.5 turns out on the needle valve is my start point. The slide should only be opened about 1/16 inch. If it still doesn't start then take it to the field and let someone teach you how. These engines can bite and bite hard if something is done wrong.

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RE: Having trouble on first start. Need some help - 10/8/2012 1:34 AM   
Skyhigh Bev



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Status: offline 		Personally, I'm more a fan of spinner style prop nuts as opposed to the traditional setup with the plastic cone. I've had two break free in the past...once hitting the inside edge of my visor as I stood next to my plane and just behind the spinning prop. The other shot straight across the pit area luckily missing everyone.

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RE: Having trouble on first start. Need some help - 10/8/2012 1:39 AM   
tacx



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Status: offline 		Spinner plate (called the thrust washer), Prop, Prop washer, and nut in that order. Tighten the nut very tight. Because the nut is tightened in a clockwise direction it can come loose when you flip the prop in a counterclockwise direction. if it is not tight enough.

The starting order you discribe is not correct.

1. Turn on your TX.
2. Turn on your plane.
3. open the throttle to full.
4. Choke the engine. Put your finger over the muffler and turn the prop counterclockwise (looking from the front of the plane). You should see fuel flowing to the carb. Give it 6 to 7 turns to begin with.
5. BRING THE THROTTLE BACK DOWN. To about 1/8 open.
6. NOW, put on your glow starter.
7. Flip the prop counterclockwise (again from the front).

If engine won't start. REMOVE the glow starter and choke again. Try starting again with a little more open throttle.

New engines can be diffecult to start. Especially using the flip method. A electric starter will save you allot of hassle.

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RE: Having trouble on first start. Need some help - 10/8/2012 1:43 AM   
Scuba-Steve


 

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Status: offline 		Im giving up for the night.  Do you guys think my club will be active on a monday?  If not ill just take it to the club sponsored store.  I am tightening it with a hobbico 4 way, and I torqueing down pretty hard.  Ill also try removing the spinner.  It is plastic.  Btw, i checked the plug, and its glowing bright orange.  I filled the tank until it came out of the disconnected exhaust line with 15%.

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RE: Having trouble on first start. Need some help - 10/8/2012 1:50 AM   
Scuba-Steve


 

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Status: offline 		 Ok you said put my finger over the muffler, not the carb.  Directions say carb.  Im just checking to ensure this is correct.  Btw, everytime I get fuel into the line while choking, I get small air bubbles flowing back on the back side of the engine cycle.  Needle has been open 2 turns the whole time.

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RE: Having trouble on first start. Need some help - 10/8/2012 1:53 AM   
j.duncker



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Status: offline 		Starting and engine by hand [ with the chicken stick ] requires having the knack. Over or under priming can kill any chance of success.

An electric starter will make things much easier.

Take it along to your local club and someone will have it burst into life for you.

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RE: Having trouble on first start. Need some help - 10/8/2012 4:36 AM   
Gray Beard


 

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Status: offline 		I fully agree with Bev on plastic spinners, I won't pit next to anyone with one on there engine. I have seen a lot of them self destruct and shatter. All the clubs and fields I have flown at usually has someone there during the week but there is never a grantee, people fly when they feel like it. An electric starter does make things easier, not mandatory but a lot easier.

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RE: Having trouble on first start. Need some help - 10/8/2012 7:19 AM   
thepamster


 

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Starting a glow engine by hand is something I would not recommend for anyone, especially a beginner. Not done properly can lead to a shattering prop in your face. Some engines can start easily by hand, some can not and finding out the answer can be painful.



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RE: Having trouble on first start. Need some help - 10/8/2012 8:21 AM   
Hossfly



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Scuba-Steve

Ok, thank you.  Next question, because it is not described.  There are 4 peices to the prop shaft.  Spinner plate, prop, washer, nut.  I have it assembled in that order, but have tried putting the washer in different places.


New engines can be a handfull while some are easy at first time. Now you mention a Spinner Plate and then say it is plastic. I have used plastic spinners on engines up to .90 and if balanced and properly fit they do work fine. I much prefer metal but I don't always have what I want most.

The one big secret that makes prop tweeking a lot less of a problem if one is using a spinner is rather simple. Obtain a small piece of sandpaper, much preferably wet-dry type, with a 100-200 grain. Fold it in half and cut a half moon to give an open size a bit larger than the thrust washer (the front of the engine). Cut a hole to fit over the crankshaft. No need to be pretty or all that stuff, just efficient. The sanding side faces the BACKPLATE (spinner washer). Now you can tighten the prop well, but you don't have to strip the threads. Really it is a simple fix for a real problem, and especially with metal backplates. Works well on plastic also, since most of the junk from way west is rather on the soft side!

Flooding a new engine can cause a number of poor starts. Once you learn the technique of proper choking, turning the prop over and feeling the bump, it all gets easier.

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RE: Having trouble on first start. Need some help - 10/8/2012 12:15 PM   
Rodney



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Status: offline 		Properly set up, there is nothing wrong with the plastic spinners. I've seen literally hundreds of them used with no problems, use them myself. Just make sure that the cut out area for the prop is properly done. You must be sure that there is no contact between the edge of the cutout on the spinner for the prop and the prop ( at least 1/16 inch clearance). I do suggest that, if not using an electric starter, to leave the spinner and spinner back plate off until you get the starting technique working properly as that leaves less to worry about. You will still benefit most by visiting your local club or an experienced fellow modeller to get their inputs on how to start your engine.

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RE: Having trouble on first start. Need some help - 10/8/2012 1:09 PM   
on_your_six


 

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Status: offline 		Ask at the hobby store where you bought for help. Web sale?? find someone locally that flies... don't know where a flying field is located?? google it .. there are spread sheets that will tell you where. I don't want to say, you have to join AMA, but flying glow engines is not as simple as electric. A bit of good help will save you a lot of time and frustration. You might even make a friend or two, and out there, you might find a field to fly without paying the AMA tax.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Scuba-Steve
I know this is obviously a pretty dumb question, but it is annoying me pretty badly.  I'm trying to start my first engine for the first time to break it in.  I am chicken sticking it.  I put my finger over the carb, and from the front of the plane turn the prop clockwise to get fuel into the lines.  The directions say counterclockwise, but I assume this is from the rear of the plane.  Its the only way I can get fuel to flow.  I then connect my glow starter, turn the plane on, turn the transmitter on, open the carb 1/4 to 1/8 open (tried both).  Either way I turn the prop with the chicken stick I hear the sound of it trying to fire slightly, but eventually the prop nut comes loose.  Either way.  You would think only one direction (the wrong direction) would cause this to happen.  What am I doing wrong.  BTW I have an Avistar Elite RTR.



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RE: Having trouble on first start. Need some help - 10/8/2012 1:17 PM   
jester_s1


 

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Status: offline 		Do you believe me now? The electric starter is worth at least what it costs in time and frustration saved. But since you're really wanting to get in the air without spending any more money, I'll offer what I've learned that goes in addition to what others have said.

1. You can't get a prop tight enough not to slip with a plastic backplate, and you can't get it tight enough with any backplate using a 4 way glow plug wrench. Use a box end wrench and crank it down good after doing the sandpaper trick that Hossfly told you about. FYI, the prop nut doesn't hold the prop in place. It only provides clamping pressure so that friction with the spinner's backplate will hold it in place.

2. There is an even better sandpaper than Hossfly's, although his will work. It's open mesh plumber's sand cloth. It's rough on both sides so it will bite into both the prop and the backplate. Put a square of it behind your prop and you'll never have one work loose.

3. You can prime the engine by plugging the carb or the muffler. It doesn't matter which. And seeing a few air bubbles rolling back down the fuel line is normal if it's an uphill journey to your carb from the tank. If that's happening, you have to get in a hurry after priming your engine so it doesn't start on the prime and then quit due to lack of fuel. You may even consider propping up the tail of your plane so that the fuel doesn't roll back, but don't get it so high that fuel rolls in unless you enjoy clearing out flooded engines.

4. You can test for proper prime by holding the prop firmly and rotating it through the compression with the glow driver on. You'll feel a slight kick at top dead center when there's enough fuel in the engine to start.

If you get all of that right, the engine will start on the next flip with the glow driver on. There's no substitute for the understanding of how our engines work that learning to start by hand gives you, but those of us who use an electric starter find that our flying field days and our plane set up days are a lot more fun when our engines just start on demand. With electric, you give the engine a couple of priming flips to get fuel up to the carb, attach the glow driver, and give it a shot. Unless something is wrong, the engine will come to life within the next two seconds whether it's primed right or not, new or not, 2 stroke or 4 stroke, on the plane or on the break in stand.

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RE: Having trouble on first start. Need some help - 10/8/2012 1:48 PM   
acerc



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Status: online 		My two cent's.
First- find someone to help you get started. There are too many variable's to a engine the first time around for everyone to cover/ or you to remember.
Second -find someone to help you. It has not been said but when it comes to choking one flip too many and it's flooded. One flip short it's not choked enough.
Third- find someone to help you. That bright orange glow with the juice on does not mean it is working, if flooded it will not work. If not enough it will not work.
Like said before, anyone that has ran a glow engine can teach you more in five minute's than we could in a month. A car guy, a boat guy, most any of the LHS guy's can give you a quick tutorial on the ins and outs.
And IMHO the electric starter is worth it's weight in gold. You can get one for around thirty buck's ready to go. Do yourself an enormous favor, get help and get a starter.


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RE: Having trouble on first start. Need some help - 10/8/2012 1:57 PM   
raptureboy


 

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Status: offline 		Ditch the 4 way wrench and get the proper size open end or box wrench. You can't get enough torque on the nut with a 4 way. They do make a special lock nut commonly used on 4 stroke engines. I've never had a problem with plastic spinners and if you don't have the proper clearence around the prop cutouts then they can shattter. Buy the starter, it's worth every penny and you can get them cheap on here or ebay.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Scuba-Steve

Im giving up for the night.  Do you guys think my club will be active on a monday?  If not ill just take it to the club sponsored store.  I am tightening it with a hobbico 4 way, and I torqueing down pretty hard.  Ill also try removing the spinner.  It is plastic.  Btw, i checked the plug, and its glowing bright orange.  I filled the tank until it came out of the disconnected exhaust line with 15%.




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RE: Having trouble on first start. Need some help - 10/8/2012 3:10 PM   
lopflyers


 

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Status: offline 		Two things you really need and your problem is solved:
1. Help
2. Electric starter.


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RE: Having trouble on first start. Need some help - 10/8/2012 4:14 PM   
rgburrill



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Status: offline 		First, several people suggested opening the needle valve a certain number of turns.  Unfortunately each engine is different and the nubmer of turns can vary widely.  Check you manual for the correct number.
Second, most instructions do say to put your finger over the throttle to choke the engine.  That, however, puts your finger in close proximaty to the prop.  Putting your finger over the exhaust solves that.  But it only works if you have a good line from the muffler to the fuel tank.  I prefer that method.
Third, you said you "connect my glow starter, turn the plane on, turn the transmitter on" after you tried to prime the engine - bad, bad, bad.  Your sequence is horribly backwards.  The transmitter should always be turned on first.  Then the receiver should be turned on.  That way you can field test your radio system before ever trying to start the engine.  Only then should you prime the engine, then connect the glow plug and flip start it.
Using an electric starter does make things easier for sure.  One problem with flipping is sometimes the engine will start backwards and you won't quickly notice that.  But there is no reason you can't get a good start without one.  One trick is after you have connected the glow plug, grasp the prop FIRMLY with your hand and SLOWLY rotate it counter-clockwise.  You should feel it kick back when it fires.  Then it should fire easily by flipping with a stick.  I wear a glove when I do this because my props have a fairly sharp trailing edge.  One problem with flipping is often the engine will start backwards and you won't notice that.

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RE: Having trouble on first start. Need some help - 10/8/2012 5:15 PM   
flycatch


 

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Status: offline 		Correct me if I'm wrong but hand starting a 2 stroke engine by hand is always against the compression stroke. If you prop CCW the engine will run backwards upon starting. The prop rotation is CCW to the engine CW rotation. You prop CW to start the engine by hand.

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