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RE: Cons for installing redundant receiver batteries ? - 10/19/2012 4:13 AM   
John Redman


 

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Status: offline 		Hey David, very interesting. I am not crazy electrical savvy so I rely on sources in this area. My source for this one was Bob Wilcox who is an electrical engineer by trade and knows electronics inside and out. I just followed his instruction back in the days of nicads. I have always trusted him intently in this area and his guidance has never let me down.

Either way, I will totally agree that no turbine powered model should be flown with one radio system battery.

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RE: Cons for installing redundant receiver batteries ? - 10/19/2012 4:17 AM   
PaulD



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quote:

ORIGINAL: gooseF22

I prefer wolverine for a switch if not using switched regulators or a Powersafe rx..
I did some of the Flight testing and bench testing of the Wolverine design.. with 4 10 am mofsets, I can tell you that thing is robust.. I ran an electric motor thru it at 40 amps twin deans in and out.


That's interesting. I've become a BIG fan and user of these switches but had never heard any independent test data/results like this. I also have run set-ups with dual batteries and 2 switches but like the extra safety and security of the Wolverines.

Thanks for sharing that.

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RE: Cons for installing redundant receiver batteries ? - 10/19/2012 6:52 AM   
GTMUSTANGCS



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Status: offline 		how do you connect another battery to a receiver when it only has one "B" port?

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RE: Cons for installing redundant receiver batteries ? - 10/19/2012 7:58 AM   
NZjet


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GTMUSTANGCS

how do you connect another battery to a receiver when it only has one "B" port?


You can connect it anywhere along the reciever, not just a battery port. You can use a y lead off a servo port if required.
I have always run a simple 2 nicad 2 switch setup and never had a failure. usually one at the top and the other at the bottom of the reciever

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RE: Cons for installing redundant receiver batteries ? - 10/19/2012 9:29 AM   
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Status: offline 		The real question is: why don´t we have 2 batteries also in the transmitter? : )

TP.

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RE: Cons for installing redundant receiver batteries ? - 10/19/2012 11:39 AM   
Xairflyer



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ORIGINAL: Stobe777

The real question is: why don´t we have 2 batteries also in the transmitter? : )

TP.

That is something that is being missed, the battery in the TX can go as easily as in the Aircraft, in fact probably easier, as normally the batts are AA size NIMh, where as in the aircraft they will normally be big sub C's (if not using a lipo) which are about ten times more resilient than a AA battery.

I think it would be great selling point for Manuf to incl a battery backup system in their transmitters, a simple button cell like their memory battery that will give say at least 15mins of use in the event of a main battery failure.

Saying all that two batteries are yes safer than one, but in 30 yrs of flying RC I have never had a battery fail in a TX or RX.

Batteries are probably the single cheapest item in our Aircraft, Maintenance & replacing them regular is the key, I change mine now every year, my favourite batteries are 2100nimh 4.8v vapex instants (same as eneloops) for my normal prop models cost £6.95 and 4300ma Nimh Sub Cs 4.8v for my Jets and Large models cost £14.00.


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RE: Cons for installing redundant receiver batteries ? - 10/19/2012 12:14 PM   
rcfun2005


 

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Status: offline 		"A couple of battery chare that I have used in the past are the Smart-Fly Battshare and the Fromeco Woverine switch. The Wolverine is a dual switch with a built in battery share circuit. It's also similarly priced to a pair of JR Heavy Duty switches so it's not particularly expensive."

so for a "basic" lower cost setup , sounds like the woverine switch provides the dual switches and the battery isolation circuit , win win...

thanks




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RE: Cons for installing redundant receiver batteries ? - 10/19/2012 12:36 PM   
rcfun2005


 

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so where is good place to order the Fromeco Woverine switch ?


looks like the fromeco web site is out of stock.


thanks, again, Joe

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RE: Cons for installing redundant receiver batteries ? - 10/19/2012 1:14 PM   
BarracudaHockey



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stobe777

The real question is: why don´t we have 2 batteries also in the transmitter? : )

TP.

Because its easy to glance at your transmitter to tell the voltage and its not subjected to vibrations and landings like a model (unless you drop it of course)

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RE: Cons for installing redundant receiver batteries ? - 10/19/2012 2:25 PM   
PaulD



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quote:

ORIGINAL: rcfun2005

and,,,

so where is good place to order the Fromeco Woverine switch ?


looks like the fromeco web site is out of stock.


thanks, again, Joe


Dreamworks has lots:

http://dreamworksrc.com/catalog/advanced_search_result.php?osCsid=cf19785e1a241b6dee38d4c19681528d&keywords=Wolverine&categories_id=&inc_subcat=1&manufacturers_id=&pfrom=&pto=&dfrom=&dto=

PaulD



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RE: Cons for installing redundant receiver batteries ? - 10/19/2012 2:28 PM   
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Status: offline 		Couldn't you use two batteries, two switches, two regulators, into a Y to your B/7 or whatever power port you have and if one fails the other is ready to supply the system with the needed voltage to keep from having a bad day.
I had a set up similar to this and seemed to work fine for me in that large airplane. If anyone has a better way i would like to know. It's been a while since the set up was in one of my airplanes so i could be wrong about how it was. I think it's the way it was.

I will be doing something similar very soon for another larger plane..... I will be back to watch this progress to maybe learn something new or better.

Thanks
Planedriver

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RE: Cons for installing redundant receiver batteries ? - 10/19/2012 2:30 PM   
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RE: Cons for installing redundant receiver batteries ? - 10/19/2012 2:39 PM   
Dr Honda



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Status: offline 		Why add regulators? I know that "Good" brands are generally reliable.... but it's just adding a failure point. I know of a big Viper that went in because the PowerBox was suspect. (I think it shouldn't have flown) Also... regulators waste power, and inject potential RF noise.


Simple is better... more reliable... and cheaper. There are no issues with using 2 batteries, and 2 switches. PERIOD!!


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RE: Cons for installing redundant receiver batteries ? - 10/19/2012 2:45 PM   
Xairflyer



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Status: offline 		I agree when you use a regulator you are adding a fail point into your system the whole idea is to increase reliability

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RE: Cons for installing redundant receiver batteries ? - 10/19/2012 2:57 PM   
ash 26


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Xairflyer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stobe777

The real question is: why don´t we have 2 batteries also in the transmitter? : )

TP.

That is something that is being missed, the battery in the TX can go as easily as in the Aircraft, in fact probably easier, as normally the batts are AA size NIMh, where as in the aircraft they will normally be big sub C's (if not using a lipo) which are about ten times more resilient than a AA battery.

I think it would be great selling point for Manuf to incl a battery backup system in their transmitters, a simple button cell like their memory battery that will give say at least 15mins of use in the event of a main battery failure.

Saying all that two batteries are yes safer than one, but in 30 yrs of flying RC I have never had a battery fail in a TX or RX.

Batteries are probably the single cheapest item in our Aircraft, Maintenance & replacing them regular is the key, I change mine now every year, my favourite batteries are 2100nimh 4.8v vapex instants (same as eneloops) for my normal prop models cost £6.95 and 4300ma Nimh Sub Cs 4.8v for my Jets and Large models cost £14.00.



My old Multiplex 3030 had that aready 20years ago

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RE: Cons for installing redundant receiver batteries ? - 10/19/2012 2:58 PM   
rcfun2005


 

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Status: offline 		seems like isolation circ would be important ? depending how first batt goes bad , it could draw down the 2cd batt volt without isolation circ .

agree , regulator not required with a123 type batt







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RE: Cons for installing redundant receiver batteries ? - 10/19/2012 3:18 PM   
Xairflyer



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quote:

ORIGINAL: ash 26




My old Multiplex 3030 had that aready 20years ago


Do they still have it?

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RE: Cons for installing redundant receiver batteries ? - 10/19/2012 4:00 PM   
BlueBus320



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Status: offline 		Wow, thanks for posting, this is a very important thread. Being out of turbines since 2005, I've missed A LOT!!! (123's, regulators, lipo's, even 2.4ghz..bad time to go on hiatus). I usually don't even recognize all the fancy shiny stuff guys put into their birds now a days. I'm setting up a jet now & caught this thread at the right time
Think I'll go with double 123's and a Wolverine

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RE: Cons for installing redundant receiver batteries ? - 10/19/2012 4:03 PM   
BlueBus320



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Status: offline 		If the wolverine fails, do you loose both ports? It seems like it may be better to go with 2 individual high quality switches.

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RE: Cons for installing redundant receiver batteries ? - 10/19/2012 4:52 PM   
Dr Honda



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ORIGINAL: BlueBus320

If the wolverine fails, do you loose both ports? It seems like it may be better to go with 2 individual high quality switches.



It can.... and you will be better off just using 2 good switches. I know most of these Regulator/safety Switch companies advertise that when they fail... they fail "ON". But lets face it... if electronics fail... you don't know what's going to happen. In no way am I saying they are bad switches... but I'm all about keeping it simple, and cheap.

FYI... Since you've been away... "A123" is just a brand. The type of battery we are normally talking about is a LiFe battery. (Lithium Iron) It's like a LiPo, but it's normal output is 6.6v for a 2 cell pack. So... They output the same as a 5 cell NiCd pack. And because of that.... You dont need a regulator.


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RE: Cons for installing redundant receiver batteries ? - 10/19/2012 5:09 PM   
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Status: offline 		Thanks Dr Honda!.. I was hoping someone would chime in quick, as I am Finishing up my cart with Dreamworks as we speak. From my research on the Wolverine this morning, it appears that the 2 switches share a common circuitry board, so I agree 100%. 2 switches seem to be the only way to truly have 2 independent power sources.

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RE: Cons for installing redundant receiver batteries ? - 10/19/2012 5:34 PM   
rcfun2005


 

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ORIGINAL: BlueBus320

Thanks Dr Honda!.. I was hoping someone would chime in quick, as I am Finishing up my cart with Dreamworks as we speak. From my research on the Wolverine this morning, it appears that the 2 switches share a common circuitry board, so I agree 100%. 2 switches seem to be the only way to truly have 2 independent power sources.


"2 independent power sources" but if you plugging them into one reciever bus ,,, your 2 sources are now connected on the one bus ... so depending on way a cell fails it can draw down the other batt being connected on one bus with no isolator circ...


so what is going to be the failure your protecting against ? ....

no right answer ... just pros and cons both ways...

interesting




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RE: Cons for installing redundant receiver batteries ? - 10/19/2012 5:57 PM   
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Status: offline 		dont have to run A123 when the LiFe's are just as good. I only LiFe's in all my planes now.

The Wolverine is one of the best switches on the market...................

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RE: Cons for installing redundant receiver batteries ? - 10/19/2012 6:02 PM   
ash 26


 

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ORIGINAL: Xairflyer


quote:

ORIGINAL: ash 26




My old Multiplex 3030 had that aready 20years ago


Do they still have it?


yes still do it have it in my MC 4000

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RE: Cons for installing redundant receiver batteries ? - 10/19/2012 6:26 PM   
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ORIGINAL: BlueBus320

If the wolverine fails, do you loose both ports? It seems like it may be better to go with 2 individual high quality switches.


According to Fromeco (the manufacture) its failure mode is on so everything stays connected.

There are major difference's between A123's as the standard, P04LiFi, LiIon and LiPo, the genuine A123's are capable of being charged at 10amps without a problem and can discharge at up to 80Amp, The P04's that have been copying the A123 chemistry, (useless when they first came out) although improved in recent years they do not come close to the performance of the genuine A123 and do not use the Nano Phosphate technology, this also applies to the LiIon's out there, LiPo's are a different ball game all together, easily damaged, soft case and if miss treated or incorrectly charged they are prone to catching fire, I suggest you do a bit of research on the different chemistries to get yourself up to speed.

Mike

EDIT: have a look at post 18 on this thread: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_11265939/tm.htm explains in detail the difference between A123's and the P04's.

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