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RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111 - 11/4/2012 7:07 AM   
zipnz1


 

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Status: offline 		It seems with all the documentation there is some negative incidence in the stab of the original 111. What is important is what this amount is in relation with the wing. Most bombers have positive incidence in the wing in relation with the stab.

Investigating don smiths bombers he has +2.5 degrees of incidence of the wing to the tail.
His planes are proven performers so they might be good examples to follow with your design.
So if you were to carry -4.5 degrees in the stab of the 111, i would make the wing -2 degrees and make the nacells 0 with the stab or a little down thrust something like -1 degree or -5.5 degrees to the fuse.
And whatever you do do not go into positive incidence with the wing tips compaired to the root. The last thing you want is for the wing tips to stall before the center of the wing.

mike

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RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111 - 11/4/2012 7:26 AM   
ProfLooney



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Status: offline 		heya mike i see you just up the river a few mins from me cool. well the one thing abt dons designs is he never used scale airfoils and most airfoils dont have the huge belly on the root so the incidence setup will be a little different to get the proper lift.


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RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111 - 11/4/2012 10:06 AM   
gabriel voisin


 

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Status: offline 		Hello ProfLooney,
the HE 111 was built until to 1956 in Spain as licence "CASA C-2.111B,"
The most HE 111 that exist today are all from the late spanish production.
The "Deutsche Museum München" has a outside restoration workshop with the name "Flugwerft Schleißheim".
In this workshop are the specialists for the German WW2 aircrafts and they will be restore this aircrafts for the whole world.
A few years ago a HE 111 was completely restored in the "Flugwerft Schleißheim" and the guys have created a small restoration report.
I could offer, that I'm sending you this report and if necessary, I ask the people about the EWD and profile data.
In the "Deutsche Museum München" and "Deutsche Technikmuseum Berlin" are the most surviving drawings of the German WW2 aircraft.

greetings Matz

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RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111 - 11/4/2012 5:41 PM   
jaka


 

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Have a look at the picture below.Clearly shows that the leading edge of the stab was in line with center of the fuselage.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/43462563@N04/7298492258
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jacofoto/7298491290/in/photostream/

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RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111 - 11/4/2012 5:52 PM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		Oh, now I'm waffling again! Sure glad I'm not the one designing this!

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RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111 - 11/4/2012 6:10 PM   
ProfLooney



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Status: offline 		the last picture is misleading because the elevator isnt straight. if you follow the lines of the stab if the elev was straight it would line up with the top edge of the fuse.  and yes the LE of the stab is at the centerline but that the rear of the stab is angled up. look at all the line drawings I posted and the last one it shows the same thing. especially the last pic I posted showing the 4.5 degree angle. the nose of the stab is right on that line.  sorry I cant afford to go by a picture that is set at an perspective type view. Now you come with a good head on view from the side of the plane with elev in neutral and I will consider it but all the evidence says its negative.




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RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111 - 11/4/2012 8:10 PM   
jaka


 

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Yes I know that the second picture isn't showing the elevator in a straight line as to the stab. But it shows , at least it supports the first picture where the leading stab edge is placed in comparance to the fusleage centerline.
The first picture also shows that the leading edge of the stab is in line with centerline of the fuselage. The drawings you showed on page 4 must be wrong as they show a stab leading edge which is below the centerline (see the thin line between the aluminium fuselage plates in the picture) of the fuselage.

Could it be that the stabilizer was adjustable?? Sounds not likely to me but who knows?

This picture also fairly good shows that the trailing edge of the elevator lines up with the pointed end of the fuselage.
Funny if it was othervise as it would have omitted the flowing lines where the fuselage pointed edge and trailing edge of the elevator meets.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/23068268@N08/4853758191


You could also see in this landing photo that despite the pilot is holding a slight up elevator, the trailing edge of the elevator would line up with the pointed end of the fuselage if he would neutrolize the stick.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/11487454@N03/2211291938

< Message edited by jaka -- 11/4/2012 8:39 PM >

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RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111 - 11/4/2012 9:30 PM   
ProfLooney



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Status: offline 		naw even if you look at the illustraition both profile drawings clearly show a negative incidence I am convinced its negative and a neutral incidence doesnt make sense on this plane from an aerodynamic view





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RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111 - 11/4/2012 10:19 PM   
ProfLooney



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Status: offline 		Ok let me see if I can explain this so you can understand more why it HAS to be negative incidence on the stab.



this is the setup currently

Notice because the wing root has a negative degree incidence the stab also has to have one. most planes the root is neutral or a few degrees of positive to get the airflow under the airfoil.

Also this root airfoil has a big guppy belly to it. Hard to see but it does. So since it has a neg incidence the airflow will be washing more heavily over the top of the wing pushing the nose of the plane into the ground. By adding a negative incidence to the Stab it adds more pressure to the top of the stab forcing the tail down which changes the angle of the wing into the flow of air giving more pressure to the bottom of the rib thus creating lift and raising the nose in the air.













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RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111 - 11/4/2012 10:23 PM   
ProfLooney



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Now set the stab even with the fuse line and you get a neutral effect on the neither raising or lowering the nose of the plane thus not affecting the wing. the rib set at negative incidence has the airflow over the top of the wing pushing the nose into the ground and you probably dont have enough elevator for straight level flight or you use all your elevator just to get level flight and have no more throw for maneuvering.














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RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111 - 11/4/2012 10:28 PM   
ProfLooney



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now assuming this wing root was a normal symmetrical or semi symetrical airfoil it is usually set at either 0 deg incidence or positive incidence usually anywhere fom 1/2 to 4 degrees.

This raises the wing airfoil into the wind creating lift on the bottom of the wing right away and thus usually stab can be set at 0 deg incidence or neutral position. depending on the wing airfoil sometimes you even still put in 1 degree neg incidence in the stab. vary rarely but does happen that you put in positive in the stab. especially in the case of the E2C hawkeye that the stab is almost flat on top and a guppy belly.


So as you can see the pics are really just optical illusions when the stab looks set at 0 incidence because aerodynamically it can not be because the plane would not fly if it was.








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RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111 - 11/4/2012 10:44 PM   
ProfLooney



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Status: offline 		BTW I asked a couple buddies in the UK to check out the HE-111 at the Cosford museum and tell me. so once they get back to me I can hopefully feel confident in my documentation or know that it is incorrect and double check everything



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RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111 - 11/5/2012 3:27 AM   
Ram-bro


 

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Status: offline 		thanks for the aerodynamic lessons. So is the goal to have a scale plane including airfoil or to have a good flying scale airplane? What would be wrong with setting the incidence at 0 and 0 and going with a proven sport airfoil? Just curious and I love to see the thought processes that go into designing and building a scale aircraft.

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RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111 - 11/5/2012 3:33 AM   
ProfLooney



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Status: offline 		it is all personal preference. I could use a clarck y for the root and a Naca 4 number for the tip, but you dont get tyhe same looks. also when you would bring them up to neutral or positive incidences then you will have to adjust the thrust on the nacelles so again you slightly change the looks.

my personal feel is that the plane flew just fine on the airfoils it had and whatever incidences they were set at why fix something that isnt broken. thats why all my planes I use the original airfoil if I can find them. Most the time you can find them on the web at this site www.ae.illinois.edu/m-selig/ads/aircraft.html


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RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111 - 11/5/2012 3:38 AM   
Ram-bro


 

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Status: offline 		face it man, your a scale nut....just like the rest of us.

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RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111 - 11/5/2012 3:40 AM   
ProfLooney



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Status: offline 		lol a slightly cracked nut


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RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111 - 11/5/2012 5:20 AM   
zipnz1


 

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Status: offline 		I would stick with your planned incidences joe. The only job of the stab is to control the angle of incidence of the wing. the wing angle goes positive and the plane climbs and just the opposite for
decent. When flying the angle of the stab is set to provide normal level flight by balancing the lift against the weight of the airframe.
I have rotated the angle of the fuse in one of your pics +5 degrees . In this perspective the stab and the wing look like a normal incidence people are used to seeing. With the incedences you have chosen i believe the plane will take a flight attitude close to what is seen in the pdf pic.

Joe, I have been wondering if you are still living in moline. Its been a while since i have bumped into you.
Last i saw you were working on a large hurricane. We talked about my desire to build a large bf-109. I took a few years but i built a 1/3 scale 109e and had it in the air the last flying season.

Looking forward to seeing you again.


mike

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RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111 - 11/5/2012 5:31 AM   
ProfLooney



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Status: offline 		nice looking Emil I love it its my fave 109 version.

Well i just got back a couple months ago from a year in Phoenix where I did a full scale Jenny for mounting on a pole at an aviation center and was doing a 1/4 scale F-22 for the city of las vegas. before that for a couple years I did a series of abt 6 1/3 scale WWI planes to the air show team in the UK. I Now have my own LLC designing and building stuff for museums etc so now that things have settled down somewhat on the trying to get all my cad learned etc I am finally gettting back to do a few WWII designs and got a contract for this HE-111 but also wanna do some Japanese and maybe some Italian stuff. I dont know  yet I lost all the work I did on my betty when my portable HD backup crashed. but ill either do the Betty or maybe even a big 4 engine Jap plane. I also want to eventually get finished with my ME-410.

didnt you work at Alcoa? if so you still there? we got kicked out when Obama won last election cause they were saving money for the incoming taxes and I heard there is a few tradeskill guys there once in a while but not like we were as we were there almost every weekend. I havent done any millwright work in 4 yrs Ill be glad when economy gets better though im starting to do fairly decent with my business its kept our head barely above water the last 4 yrs


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RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111 - 11/5/2012 9:49 AM   
jaka


 

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I agree with all you say. But the problem with a tailplane sitting negative is that the flying attitude of the aircraft would then be in a " Tail low attitude" and this isn't the way the He 111 flies acording to all dokumentary films.

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RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111 - 11/5/2012 10:00 AM   
ProfLooney



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Status: offline 		no the tail wont fly low because of the airfoil of the wing it will level out


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RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111 - 11/5/2012 10:26 AM   
ProfLooney



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Status: offline 		I think I know why you think it will be low but when the plane comes up level the stab will then be in a neutral position and the wing will take over thus the tail will be level and not low


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RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111 - 11/5/2012 3:42 PM   
jaka


 

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How can the fuselage and the tail both fly in a level position??? The wing must fly in a slightly positive attitude, lets say 1 degree then the stabilizer will fly at ...say -1 degree....but that will make the fuselage sit in a tail low attitude....which is not seen in any of the film clips.


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RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111 - 11/5/2012 3:49 PM   
ProfLooney



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Status: offline 		i dunno abt any film clips but all my ref and from a phone call today from the UK the stab is definately in a negative incidence on the one in the museum over there. I know it may be hard to visualize it but after today there is no doubt about it. I guess through all the aerodynamics it all works out in flight. I just know now I have verification from one sitting in a museum over in the UK for all to see that the plane indeed had a negative incidence stab on it.




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RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111 - 11/5/2012 4:47 PM   
TFF


 

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Status: offline 		The problem with scale incidences is that they do not scale aerodynamically. Reynolds Numbers are not the same and the intended weight that the original incidences supported are not scaled. Now I like to see scale incidences but I am also willing to put up with the flight behavior they can cause when scaled down. It is one of those things you only know if you can handle once the plane leaves the ground. The bigger the better to off set what is going on, but the incidences are for a 20,000 lbs airplane not a 30-40 lbs one. If all was scaled you would need to fly the plane with a pair of .60s with a weight of about 95 lbs to replicate the scale incidence need. Doubt it could. We are able to get much better power to weight, build lighter than scale; we have an excess of lift so we can straighten out the incidences to get better flying planes. It is all about compromise. Looks, flying, or in between.

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RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111 - 11/5/2012 4:53 PM   
ProfLooney



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Status: offline 		that's why I am only at 3.25 degrees not the full 4.5 to allow for the model scale. it still has the visual of the full scale and that 1.25 degree difference wont really show all that much and it will still do the job it is supposed to


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