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RE: kool power and after run oil - 10/27/2012 6:08 AM

1QwkSport2.5r

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ernie Misner

Interesting that Klotz oil mixes with gasoline or methanol. They say the red color gives it a racey smell? Unlike castor oil I assume. It doesn't say a word about rust inhibitors though.

Klotz smells like bananas by itself. Mix it with gasoline and it stinks. Mix it with methanol and you have bananas that burn your nose. Hah. I wouldn't use banana oil for ARO though. PAG type oils absorb moisture, though not to the extent that methanol does though.

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RE: kool power and after run oil - 10/27/2012 9:28 AM

tiffitech

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RC-Bearings

The difference in NORMAL operation is that it is very difficult to cause rust on the hardened gears and crank in an engine. That engine looked like it was filled with water for a long time and the residual oil emulsified. Under NORMAL conditions, the hardened steel parts wouldn't rust but the bearings certainly would. The forums are full of pictures of spotlessly clean interiors with rusted bearings. Stainless steel bearings would prevent 99% of those failures.

Sorry, but this is exactly that what I where writing when I would want to sell more expensive Bearings most of the time...

Nonsense.

The Engine doesn't looked like it was deposited in Water. There was no emulsion, there was oiled rust.

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Holm

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RE: kool power and after run oil - 10/27/2012 11:32 AM

Propworn

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The racy smell comment is I think a bit tongue in cheek as the older guys like myself can remember using Castrol R which was a racing oil by Castrol that actually had a lot of Castor oil in it. It had a particular smell when anything ran on it. I don’t know of any rust inhibitors that are not petroleum based by nature and these will most certainly react with silicon based o-rings, gaskets or in the case of the YS engines the fuel regulator diaphragms. Rather than have more than one and trying to remember and use the correct one for the differing engines I just buy and use the one that works for me for all my engines. I run Gas, diesel and nitro and the Technoplate seems to work fine in all of them. In my job I use a fair amount of tool oil and on a regular basis when I have to rebuild/repair air tools there is a fair amount of varnish build up that causes most of the air tool failure. Now whether it comes from air born contaminates or the residuals from the air tool oil used I cannot say. At home I use a few drops of Techniplate in my air tools and I have yet to have to rebuild any of them. Needless to say the air tools at home do not get the work out of those at my place of work but !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I go with my gut when I decide what to use inside my engines. Regardless of all that being said its obvious its better to use some sort of ARO oil what ever your preference rather than none at all. If you have confidence in what you are using then chances are you will be sure to use it often. So in my opinion lube the sucker up what ever you use it will extend the life of your motors.

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RE: kool power and after run oil - 10/27/2012 5:11 PM

SrTelemaster150

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tiffitech

quote:

ORIGINAL: RC-Bearings

The difference in NORMAL operation is that it is very difficult to cause rust on the hardened gears and crank in an engine. That engine looked like it was filled with water for a long time and the residual oil emulsified. Under NORMAL conditions, the hardened steel parts wouldn't rust but the bearings certainly would. The forums are full of pictures of spotlessly clean interiors with rusted bearings. Stainless steel bearings would prevent 99% of those failures.

Sorry, but this is exactly that what I where writing when I would want to sell more expensive Bearings most of the time...

Nonsense.

The Engine doesn't looked like it was deposited in Water. There was no emulsion, there was oiled rust.

Regards,

Holm

I had an FA150 run exclusively on Cool Power that was in a crash & put into a shed W/O even draining the fuel tanks for 6 years before being moved into a climate controlled storage area for 8 more years. The shed was not heated. I live 60 yds from a river on the Canadian border in NY state. The Humidity is very high & the seasons are extreme. Even after all that neglect, it looked nothing like the horrible condition of the engine you pictured.

I don't kniw what contributed to that extreme rust condition, but the fuel used had little to do W//it.

< Message edited by SrTelemaster150 -- 10/28/2012 12:17 AM >

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RE: kool power and after run oil - 10/28/2012 9:18 AM

tiffitech

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:-)
No one ever will find it out what happened and if the fuel as involved or not.
I don't know if Coolpower has todo with that or not.

I've rebuild the Engine years before and actually it is the better running one of the two 46-4C I own.
Needless to say that I canged all the bearings, the Piston Ring also, grinded the Valves etc, the full program.

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Holm

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RE: kool power and after run oil - 10/28/2012 5:14 PM

Sport_Pilot

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quote:

There was no emulsion, there was oiled rust.

Which is exactly what castor oil and water mixed with some rust. Castor oil will emulsify with water and has a consistancy of thin grease. With age it turns redish brown and looks a lot like runs. Yes there was rust there, the engine looke exactly like an engine I have seen submerged under a pond a few days. Except worse. Exactly like what I would expect if someone broght home a submerged engine and left it alone.

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RE: kool power and after run oil - 10/28/2012 5:19 PM

Sport_Pilot

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quote:

I don’t know of any rust inhibitors that are not petroleum based by nature

The best are not petroleum based, and include solid chemicals that must disolve in the oil. Castor oil it self has been used in small amounts as a rust inhibitor. But petroleum oil has various rust inhibitors that are not petroleum based. There is even chemicals used designed to disolve in and water condensation and react with any oxygen in the water to prevent the water from causing rust.

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RE: kool power and after run oil - 10/28/2012 6:48 PM

TimBle

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Sport Pilot is right about corrosion inhibitors. Allow me to add some additional info.

1) Anti corrosion additives are only hydrocarbon based: FALSE

These are generally metallic in nature and can consist of any or all of the following groups. Metal Deactiviators (MDA usually amine based), Extreme Pressure Additives (Phosphate based), Anti wear additives (ZDDP or even POE based) PAG itself canbe used as anti war because it is highly polar but has low internal shear. Then there are other Esters as well.

2) Water absorption of PAG oils is bad and will corrode the engine: FALSE.

In an aluminium crank case the water absorption is beneficial in that it promotes the formation of the AlO2 (aluminium oxide) layer which prevents further corrosion of the aluminium. The steel components are generally unaffected due to the coating of PAG, and other polar additives in the lubricant.

3) water absorption into alcohol fuels is a bad thing and will cause rust : FALSE

Its been scientifically proven that water absorption actually reduces the corrosivity of alcohol fuels by absorbing negatively charged ions. As always it the degree of water absorption. Submersing the engine is an obvious case where water is a bad thing.

I suspect that there are other reasons for the corrosion many see in their engines.

1) rust is already present in the metal used for the steel components of the engine. Poorly processed steels and veryhigh carbon steels are prone to surface corrosion no matter what we do to them. Lets face it, hobby engines are low volume so the steel used is going to in proportion to the final cost of the engine...

2) Poor quality methanol is being used

3) dirt /contaminant ingestion via the engines carb would be trapped in the crankcase and if there are salts i.e. flying in an area close to the ocean or salt pan or salt lake,

4) Copper ions from poor quality brass fuel tubing, brass clunks etc. I tend to use aluminium and steel components in my fuel systems.

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RE: kool power and after run oil - 10/29/2012 2:40 AM

blw

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The Enya in the pics was bought cheap from an auction site. Maybe the history of that engine is unknown?

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RE: kool power and after run oil - 10/29/2012 5:59 AM

Ernie Misner

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>>> The racy smell comment is I think a bit tongue in cheek as the older guys like myself can remember using Castrol R which was a racing oil by Castrol that actually had a lot of Castor oil in it. It had a particular smell when anything ran on it >>>

I remember the Castrol R well. It smelled GREAT but man was it a plug fouler in 2 strokes! Remember Blendzall Castor? Smelled like shoe polish and seems like it had benzene or someting in it that gave it that smell and said it allowed methanol to be mixed with the gasoline if it was legal.... or even if it wasn't legal....

You would get high following someone running that.

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RE: kool power and after run oil - 10/29/2012 1:42 PM

Propworn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sweatybetty

i use kool power fuel and the jug says that no after run oil is needed for storage. i understand that after run oil wont hurt, but will the kool power work do the same?
thanks all sb

I think it’s hilarious when such a simple question is asked on the forums and all the so called experts are willing to argue technicalities till the cows come home.
The original poster seems to have the answer they were looking for and moved on with one and only one post. Some will fill up pages with argument, real or made up facts, quotes and chemical formulas from other sites. Next will be the need to engage in the listing of degrees and titles that back up these absurd ramblings. On and on it will go.
To the original thread starter:
After run oil some do some don’t all with varying amounts of success.
I does not hurt to add after run oil to the engines.
Choice of after run oil is a personal preference and sometimes simply a mater of what is available.
Lots of suggestions for both purchased and home made concoctions from others posting on this site you will have to choose which one you will try.
And Ernie remember how sometimes the eyes would burn when following someone who got carried away trying to boost the fuel. Later seeing them push it home after the engine got a little tight on that long back stretch. HE HE HE HE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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RE: kool power and after run oil - 10/29/2012 2:16 PM

Sport_Pilot

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quote:

I does not hurt to add after run oil to the engines.

It can, if added too soon with wet fuel in the crankcase. As I said burn off the fuel then spin it up with a starter , put the piston at bottom dead center, and wait a couple of hours. You could skip this if the ARO is not petrol based as it will mix with the fuel. If you add oil before the fuel is gone it will not mix and float on top of the fuel, trapping the methanol against the aluminum and steel, if it has moisture in it (and it most likely does, it will corrode the steel despite the ARO, even if the fuel has no moisture it is corrosive to aluminum.

I have less trouble with corrosion with just running it dry and spinning it up than many do who use ARO. I only oil my engines when I store them for a long time. Also I rarely use Cool Power as synthetic oils are poor for anti corrosion as well as lubrication.

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RE: kool power and after run oil - 10/29/2012 3:26 PM

TimBle

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quote:

I have less trouble with corrosion with just running it dry and spinning it up than many do who use ARO. I only oil my engines when I store them for a long time.

Both good practises.

quote:

Also I rarely use Cool Power as synthetic oils are poor for anti corrosion as well as lubrication.

very untrue. Should have quit while you were ahead.

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RE: kool power and after run oil - 10/29/2012 3:33 PM

Propworn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot

quote:

I does not hurt to add after run oil to the engines.

It can, if added too soon with wet fuel in the crankcase. As I said burn off the fuel then spin it up with a starter , put the piston at bottom dead center, and wait a couple of hours. You could skip this if the ARO is not petrol based as it will mix with the fuel. If you add oil before the fuel is gone it will not mix and float on top of the fuel, trapping the methanol against the aluminum and steel, if it has moisture in it (and it most likely does, it will corrode the steel despite the ARO, even if the fuel has no moisture it is corrosive to aluminum.

I have less trouble with corrosion with just running it dry and spinning it up than many do who use ARO. I only oil my engines when I store them for a long time. Also I rarely use Cool Power as synthetic oils are poor for anti corrosion as well as lubrication.

Wet fuel ?????????? is there any other kind????? Perhaps fresh air is needed. I am happy you do all this for your engines. Waiting hours for what????? How much fuel do you leave in the engine if oil is going to float to the top??????? Someone needs a reality check in my opinion.

One fella I know in the club tosses his plane in his pickup never emptying the fuel tank or running out the engines and to my knowlege never had a problem. Last engine dirt napped after the 7 year airframe gave up the ghost after a wing came off. I took the engine apart to clean it and there was no rust it looked fine. All he wanted was for me to put it back together and its still running today. He bought a used engine ran it and told me it was bleeding brown all over his plane for about 4 or 5 tanks but cleaned up after that. I checked the engine and the thing sounds fine with no bearing noise what so ever. That too is still running to this day.

I have seen engines fail with the most anal of run out/ after run artists. I have seen the most careless, uninformed/ don't give a shXt for thier equpment mistreat those engines and yet never have a single problem with them. Do what works for you and stick with it. When it no longer works adapt and change to improve. If you try and follow all the experts here you may as well give up flying and practice engine storage as a hobby.

I have old old frozen engines solid with old castor that have been dropped into fuel for a week or two only to run just as good as they did when they were thrown into that old six quart basket 20/30 years ago.

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RE: kool power and after run oil - 10/29/2012 3:39 PM

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I have never used afterun ad have Mostly used Coolpower, live 1km from the beach and have never had any of my engines rusted up.

I don't think the pictures we're seeing is rust. Go read post #33

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RE: kool power and after run oil - 10/29/2012 3:47 PM

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@TimBle: No, its no rust, ist just plain brown color that I've smeared on it just for you.
Oh My God. (Is this the right sentence?)

I don't know what kind of ful the engine has seen and if coolpower was involved at all, but I wanted to show what can happen if
your engines doesn't get that little amount of love they need.

Regards,

Holm

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RE: kool power and after run oil - 10/29/2012 3:58 PM

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I'll let the sarcasm slide....

Rust is corrosion of iron right..?
The only source of iron is the crank shaft and bearings
Look at the amount of rust in the crank case and then have a look the crank shaft and bearings and check if the pitting (if present) accounts for the rust you are finding in the crank case.

have you checked the rust with a magnet.....?

A simple test to check whats in gunk is to remove the residue with a plastic knife and place it in a shallow dish or glass jar. add some acetone or n-hepane (contact adhesive thinner) and do a simple solvent wash by pouring the gunk + solvent through some coffee filter paper.
allow to dru and check that the stuff is magnetic.

but if its too much trouble and you're only interested in being rude then no worries

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RE: kool power and after run oil - 10/29/2012 4:40 PM

airega1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sweatybetty

thank you all!

Always remember, no after run oil in a YS

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RE: kool power and after run oil - 10/29/2012 5:44 PM

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quote:

Wet fuel ?????????? is there any other kind?????

By that I mean raw fuel as opposed to the oil that is left over when you run it dry and wait for the methanol to evaporate.

quote:

Waiting hours for what?????

Waiting for the methanol to evaporate, bad stuff for corrosion.

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RE: kool power and after run oil - 10/29/2012 5:46 PM

Sport_Pilot

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quote:

have you checked the rust with a magnet.....?

Rust is non magnetic, though the scale that flakes off often has some un oxidised iron.

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RE: kool power and after run oil - 10/29/2012 5:55 PM

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I don't trust it. Better safe than sorry. Adding a little after-run oil is always a good idea in my book and doesn't hurt anything. My favorite formula that goes back a long time is 50/50 3-in-1 household oil and Marvel Mystery Oil. An old club mechanic, who hated to fly but loved to build and mess with engines, told me this back in the early 1980's. Its never did me wrong and I've never in my life had to replace a bearing.

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RE: kool power and after run oil - 10/29/2012 7:15 PM

TimBle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot

quote:

have you checked the rust with a magnet.....?

Rust is non magnetic, though the scale that flakes off often has some un oxidised iron.

its only non magnetic when it gets to the red rust phase. It has to pass through black rust pahse first, which is magnetic. There will always be some black rust in there.

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RE: kool power and after run oil - 10/29/2012 8:05 PM

Sport_Pilot

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Black rust? You mean magnetite? Red rust does not go through a magnetite phase. To get magnetite iron has to oxidize at a high temp, you see this in the slag that comes off the top of molten iron. The black iron you speak of is actual iron that has not yet oxidized.

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RE: kool power and after run oil - 10/29/2012 8:57 PM

TimBle

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Iron oxidation goes through phases

The oxidizing of iron initially goes to FeO it then further oxides to Fe2O3 (red in colour).

It is also possible to hinder the formation of Fe2O3 and promote further oxidization to Fe3O4 (black in colour). This is achieved through additives and allows magnetic strainers to remove iron particles in circulatinng lubrication systems.
The black stuff IS an oxide of iron.
Some of this can be present with the other iron oxides Its actually a beneficial form of Iron oxide because it can hinder further red rust formation.

So, simply put, a magnet can be off use to determine if compounded magentic iron is present.

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RE: kool power and after run oil - 10/29/2012 9:03 PM

757jonp

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Man, there's just about as many opinions on ARO as oil for gas engines! If and when I use it, it's ATF. I've got some engines laying around that haven't been used in quite some time and it seems to be doing the job just fine. (Yes, I did pull the covers and take a look just for fun)

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