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RE: kool power and after run oil - 11/5/2012 12:04 AM   
1QwkSport2.5r



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Status: online 		Hazmat shipping fees are the main culprit. We've had high prices for several years. My car fuel is nearly $40 a gallon. To thwart the high cost of fuel, I mix my own. A gallon of 5% nitro 20% castor costs me about $7-8 USD and a gallon of 20%nitro/12% oil for my cars is roughly $12 a gallon to make. I use less than a quart of klotz a year which is $40 a gallon, castor is $23 a gallon and I use about 1.5 gallons of it a year up until now.

And no, I typically don't use ARO. I run my engines often enough that they don't gum up at all.

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RE: kool power and after run oil - 11/5/2012 6:13 AM   
Ernie Misner



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Status: offline 		>>> Now if we had some good ester based synthetics, my opinion would be different >>>

You got my attention there. Do they exist? Just in Europe, or?

Thanks, Ernie

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RE: kool power and after run oil - 11/5/2012 11:53 AM   
1QwkSport2.5r



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ernie Misner

>>> Now if we had some good ester based synthetics, my opinion would be different >>>

You got my attention there. Do they exist? Just in Europe, or?

Thanks, Ernie

Yeah, the good ester based synthetics are European. I tried getting some Motul Micro until I saw the price. $80 a gallon plus shipping from one site, $75+ shipping at another.


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RE: kool power and after run oil - 11/5/2012 1:11 PM   
SrTelemaster150



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ORIGINAL: Propworn


If you’re paying that much for Cool Power you’re getting gouged. Even the most expensive 30% Heli High Performance is $28 regular 15% is $18 and 5% is %14.

If all of you are paying high prices like that for fuel I would try contacting Wildcat and arrange a club buy. They deliver and the last time we did it worked out to about $13 a gallon and that was shipped cross border to Canada. You have to remember at this time our dollar was worth about 75 cents US. We had to order something along the lines of 60 plus gallons if I remember correctly.

We no longer do that as Propshop Hobbies just across the border in Warren Michigan carries Cool Power, Wildcat, Byron and several other brands some that are car/boat/motor specific. We are indeed fortunate to have such a well stocked hobby shop near by. Those who are less fortunate sometimes pay the price. I have done a fair amount of traveling with my models in the US and prices vary greatly.

It might be worth your while to investigate another fuel source if you’re paying that kind of price. I know that’s what I did as I was going through so many gallons my fuel bill went from well over $600 a year to around $400. Even less now with the addition of gas and electric to my collection.

Dennis




I buy my 15% Coolo Power when I am visiting family in ther Indisnapolis area. $68 for a case of 4 gallons.

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RE: kool power and after run oil - 11/5/2012 2:53 PM   
Sport_Pilot



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"we must use"....
Please explain. 

 
At $2.50 /L for a 20L drum of PAG I think there's margin for a good quality, and please also differentiate the differences in "quality".

 
I would be quite keen to understand what you perceive these to be since you're speaking from a position of authority in this matter.



I don't know what the price for bulk to manufactures of fuel would be.  But the high quality refridgerant oils you mentioned earlier cost about $60 a gallon to mechanics, and that is a commercial discount.  I suspect you found some other type of PAG and probably not as high a quality.


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RE: kool power and after run oil - 11/5/2012 5:42 PM   
JPMacG


 

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Status: offline 		It really pays to get fuel from a local supplier. The hazardous shipping charge and LHS profit really drive up the price. We are fortunate to live within driving distance of S&W.

It might be worth a drive to Fox, Sig, S&W or whoever is closest, even if it is a long one. Fuel will keep for years if stored properly.

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RE: kool power and after run oil - 11/5/2012 9:43 PM   
Ernie Misner



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Status: offline 		>>> Yeah, the good ester based synthetics are European. I tried getting some Motul Micro until I saw the price. $80 a gallon plus shipping from one site, $75+ shipping at another

Well isn't that just nuts that we can't have premium synthetics here in the USA. Any clue why?

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RE: kool power and after run oil - 11/5/2012 11:35 PM   
Nitrovein



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Status: offline 		There are good synthetics in USA, but the cost seem to discourage the US consumer. If you asked your LHS what the best product is and never asked him what the price is, then things would probably change over time.
I pay around $60 for one gallon of Byron 25% race fuel for my RC-car. But by paying twice that for a gallon of good oil´s and mixing my own fuel i get twice the lifespan out of a race engine and lots more power, for actually less money as I don´t need as much oil.
If you stop looking at the price in front of you and instead look at the savings in the end, then there are good oil´s in USA.

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RE: kool power and after run oil - 11/6/2012 1:56 AM   
Ernie Misner



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Status: offline 		Please show me an example of a higher price "good oil" in the USA.

Thanks! Ernie

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RE: kool power and after run oil - 11/6/2012 3:17 AM   
Nitrovein



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Status: offline 		From USA you got both Maxima and Redline that makes POE oil´s (there are probably more brands, but those two came to mind). Check with them what oil´s they have that will mix with methanol fuel.
Motul has a importer in USA, ask if they can order Motul Micro.
Is there a importer for Graupner in USA? Then they can probably import; Aerosynth, Aerosave etc. Those oil´s are made by Fuchs and Fuchs brand name for MX etc is Silkolene, those oil´s are sold in USA.

It will take a little investigation, but a couple of E-mail´s is easy to send.
Maybe you can get expensive oil for less money than we can here in Europe!

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RE: kool power and after run oil - 12/9/2012 4:27 AM   
Iflyglow



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quote:

ORIGINAL: 1QwkSport2.5r


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ernie Misner

>>> Now if we had some good ester based synthetics, my opinion would be different >>>

You got my attention there. Do they exist? Just in Europe, or?

Thanks, Ernie

Yeah, the good ester based synthetics are European. I tried getting some Motul Micro until I saw the price. $80 a gallon plus shipping from one site, $75+ shipping at another.




I actually talked with Motul on the phone a few times about getting some Motul Micro, and they stated to me that it was a PAG based oil, since ester based synthetics will not stay suspended in methanol. So Motul Micro is just another PAG oil like the rest of them. I use avenger oil from SPL lube, and have never ever had a rust problem.

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RE: kool power and after run oil - 12/9/2012 4:43 AM   
1QwkSport2.5r



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iflyglow


quote:

ORIGINAL: 1QwkSport2.5r


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ernie Misner

>>> Now if we had some good ester based synthetics, my opinion would be different >>>

You got my attention there. Do they exist? Just in Europe, or?

Thanks, Ernie

Yeah, the good ester based synthetics are European. I tried getting some Motul Micro until I saw the price. $80 a gallon plus shipping from one site, $75+ shipping at another.




I actually talked with Motul on the phone a few times about getting some Motul Micro, and they stated to me that it was a PAG based oil, since ester based synthetics will not stay suspended in methanol. So Motul Micro is just another PAG oil like the rest of them. I use avenger oil from SPL lube, and have never ever had a rust problem.

I was going on information that was given to me by a few guys over in Europe. Guess I was given some funky information. Nonetheless, PAG oils are fine to use IMO, provided you use enough of it. I am currently not a full-fledged pilot so my engines stay grounded. Actually, they get floated quite a bit on airboats. In a wet environment, PAG oils, Methanol, and metallic engine parts are not a good combination. I had a piston ring rust to the liner in one of my engines after running a 50/50 oil blend (cas/klotz) for 2 tanks. Back on full castor and it hasn't happened since. Only the engines I have with really high timing make more power and turn faster with less Castor. Dropping from all castor to 50/50 castor/synthetic gains anywhere from 300rpm to 1000rpm depending on the engine. My car engines really like to turn up (35,000rpm+) and the high castor content keeps them from wheelie-ing too much.

I might be "old fashioned" with my appetite for castor, but it works, is cheap, and smells nice. It doesnt curl your nose hairs like most of those synthetics do.

I'm a castor fan and I dont think anyone will ever get me to change.


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RE: kool power and after run oil - 12/9/2012 4:53 AM   
Iflyglow



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Status: offline 		That is also probably the reason that AMSOIL does not have a oil product that will emulsify with methanol.

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RE: kool power and after run oil - 12/9/2012 5:06 AM   
blw



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Status: offline 		Yeah, I always suspected the claims attributed to the motul oil properties.

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RE: kool power and after run oil - 12/9/2012 5:33 AM   
proptop



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Status: offline 		I've been using S&W standard airplane fuel for several years now...it has the Avenger (SPL ) oil in it...a blend of the synth. Avenger and just a wee bit of Castor.

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RE: kool power and after run oil - 12/9/2012 6:05 AM   
Warbird40


 

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Status: offline 		I always use ARO on all my engines at the end of the day regardless of fuel type/brand. The way I see, its cheap insurance. I just make sure I always drain the tank and run the engine dry before leaving the flying field, then add ARO when I get home.

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RE: kool power and after run oil - 12/9/2012 1:28 PM   
Nitrovein



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iflyglow


quote:

ORIGINAL: 1QwkSport2.5r


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ernie Misner

>>> Now if we had some good ester based synthetics, my opinion would be different >>>

You got my attention there. Do they exist? Just in Europe, or?

Thanks, Ernie

Yeah, the good ester based synthetics are European. I tried getting some Motul Micro until I saw the price. $80 a gallon plus shipping from one site, $75+ shipping at another.




I actually talked with Motul on the phone a few times about getting some Motul Micro, and they stated to me that it was a PAG based oil, since ester based synthetics will not stay suspended in methanol. So Motul Micro is just another PAG oil like the rest of them. I use avenger oil from SPL lube, and have never ever had a rust problem.


I´m not sure what the Motul Micro is based on, but the thing that it has going for it is the high viscosity.

But that there is no Esters that will mix with methanol fuel is not true.
It depends on how they have formulated it. Take Fuchs/Graupner oil, the Aerosave is a PAG but the Aerosynth-3 is a POE.
I have castors that are made to mix with gas and they wont mix with methanol.
It depends on if they are made/modified for polar or non-polar fuel.

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RE: kool power and after run oil - 12/9/2012 3:46 PM   
Iflyglow



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nitrovein


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iflyglow


quote:

ORIGINAL: 1QwkSport2.5r


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ernie Misner

>>> Now if we had some good ester based synthetics, my opinion would be different >>>

You got my attention there. Do they exist? Just in Europe, or?

Thanks, Ernie

Yeah, the good ester based synthetics are European. I tried getting some Motul Micro until I saw the price. $80 a gallon plus shipping from one site, $75+ shipping at another.




I actually talked with Motul on the phone a few times about getting some Motul Micro, and they stated to me that it was a PAG based oil, since ester based synthetics will not stay suspended in methanol. So Motul Micro is just another PAG oil like the rest of them. I use avenger oil from SPL lube, and have never ever had a rust problem.


I´m not sure what the Motul Micro is based on, but the thing that it has going for it is the high viscosity.


But that there is no Esters that will mix with methanol fuel is not true.
It depends on how they have formulated it. Take Fuchs/Graupner oil, the Aerosave is a PAG but the Aerosynth-3 is a POE.
I have castors that are made to mix with gas and they wont mix with methanol.
It depends on if they are made/modified for polar or non-polar fuel.


If you say so! It's funny because every synthetic oil manufacturer I have spoken with told me the same thing. Only PAG based will emulsify with methanol.
I am confident that we have just as good of oils in this country, if you look for them. Here is my favorite. http://splube.com/

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RE: kool power and after run oil - 12/9/2012 5:01 PM   
Nitrovein



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iflyglow

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nitrovein


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iflyglow


quote:

ORIGINAL: 1QwkSport2.5r


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ernie Misner

>>> Now if we had some good ester based synthetics, my opinion would be different >>>

You got my attention there. Do they exist? Just in Europe, or?

Thanks, Ernie

Yeah, the good ester based synthetics are European. I tried getting some Motul Micro until I saw the price. $80 a gallon plus shipping from one site, $75+ shipping at another.




I actually talked with Motul on the phone a few times about getting some Motul Micro, and they stated to me that it was a PAG based oil, since ester based synthetics will not stay suspended in methanol. So Motul Micro is just another PAG oil like the rest of them. I use avenger oil from SPL lube, and have never ever had a rust problem.


I´m not sure what the Motul Micro is based on, but the thing that it has going for it is the high viscosity.


But that there is no Esters that will mix with methanol fuel is not true.
It depends on how they have formulated it. Take Fuchs/Graupner oil, the Aerosave is a PAG but the Aerosynth-3 is a POE.
I have castors that are made to mix with gas and they wont mix with methanol.
It depends on if they are made/modified for polar or non-polar fuel.


If you say so! It's funny because every synthetic oil manufacturer I have spoken with told me the same thing. Only PAG based will emulsify with methanol.
I am confident that we have just as good of oils in this country, if you look for them. Here is my favorite. http://splube.com/


I have spoken to some oil-mfg also and some say they will, some say they don´t. The ones that say that they will mix is the ones that have them and the ones that say that they wont mix is the ones that don´t have them.
Here is a Ester based oil from USA that works: http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=91&pcid=16

Found some info in a article: http://www.foxvalleykart.com/oil1.html


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RE: kool power and after run oil - 12/9/2012 9:38 PM   
Iflyglow



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Status: offline 		It might contain a little Ester, but I bet the base stock and majority of the composition is not. I used to race Methanol powered Go Carts, and a few of us ran Mobil 1 5/20 which is ester based in our 4 stroke crankcases, and it was changed between heat races since it did not mix whatsoever with methanol what we use for fuel. Everyone else ran oils like Cool Power from Omega since that will actually mix if you got fuel in the crankcase which does happen to an extent. Beleive it or not Cool Power was and is a big name in the Carting world. AMSOIL here in the USA had a version that was advertised to Blend with alcohol, but did not last long on the market. I ask the Amsoil people at shows all the time about a 2 stroke oil for alcohol, and they say the same thing every time.

< Message edited by Iflyglow -- 12/10/2012 12:32 AM >

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RE: kool power and after run oil - 12/9/2012 11:58 PM   
Nitrovein



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Status: offline 		I´m no chemist, so I don´t have a fancy explanation.
But crankcase oil for 4-stroke needs different properties than a 2-stroke oil. Oxidation of a crankcase oil equals sludge and has a relation (I believe) to how polar it is. (A chemist would probably shot me right now... )
As comparison I have castor oil that is made for use in crankcase and gearboxes, so they have stabilized it to the point were it wont mix with methanol (but will mix with gas). (And now the chemist is reloading... )
Ester oils are also made in thousands of different variety, that´s what makes them so versatile. They also start their life as.. alcohol and fatty acid.

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RE: kool power and after run oil - 12/10/2012 1:05 AM   
Propworn


 

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Status: online 		HMMMM I have taken apart a fair number of engines run on just about every brand of fuel out there, from FAI with zero nitro to Saitos on 30%, castor, synthetic and combinations. Even home brewed fuel concoctions. Overall you can easily tell the engines whose owners are taking care of their equipment from the fellow that either has little knowledge or just doesn’t care. This in my opinion has more to do the state of the engine and its longevity than what fuel or after run oil you use. If there was a brand that was so superior to all the others wouldn’t most of us be using that one. Conversely if any were bad wouldn’t they have faded from the market? I feel that today’s fuels are more than adequate for the job intended. Only you can extend the life of your engine by running all the fuel out, storing it so dust and debris does not end up down the carb or in the exhaust port and if you wish add a little oil of your choice when you are done flying. This I have always done and I have many engines I have lost count of the number of gallons of fuel I have put through them.

Isn't it a long way off topic from Coolpower and after run oil???????

Dennis

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RE: kool power and after run oil - 12/10/2012 3:08 PM   
Nitrovein



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Propworn

HMMMM I have taken apart a fair number of engines run on just about every brand of fuel out there, from FAI with zero nitro to Saitos on 30%, castor, synthetic and combinations. Even home brewed fuel concoctions. Overall you can easily tell the engines whose owners are taking care of their equipment from the fellow that either has little knowledge or just doesn’t care. This in my opinion has more to do the state of the engine and its longevity than what fuel or after run oil you use. If there was a brand that was so superior to all the others wouldn’t most of us be using that one. Conversely if any were bad wouldn’t they have faded from the market? I feel that today’s fuels are more than adequate for the job intended. Only you can extend the life of your engine by running all the fuel out, storing it so dust and debris does not end up down the carb or in the exhaust port and if you wish add a little oil of your choice when you are done flying. This I have always done and I have many engines I have lost count of the number of gallons of fuel I have put through them.

Isn't it a long way off topic from Coolpower and after run oil???????

Dennis


You are right in many ways!
This is a long way from what the OP asked, but that´s the way it turnout sometimes.

The first thing anyone should do is to take care of their engines, no oil in the world can compensate for that.
But it´s also true what you write about fuel being adequate enough, if it is, is there any need to find better products?
(I know that I wouldn't buy commercial fuel anymore )

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