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Irvine 20 diesel - 10/29/2012 4:52 AM   
AMB


 

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From: winter park, FL, USA
Status: offline 		Ok is the Ivine 20 glow and diesel the same engine, the used one I got on flea bay, muffler has a pressure fitting the NIB I have its blanked off with a plug also carb has a larger diameter hole in carb barrel wonder if the guy just put the diesel head on the glow, also missing head gasket, anybody have a spare?? no big deal on that can cut one martin

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RE: Irvine 20 diesel - 10/29/2012 5:14 AM   
fiery


 

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Status: offline 		Hi Martin

I understand the differences are:

1. Blanked off muffler pressure fitting.

2. On early examples, an exhaust restrictor in the end of the muffler tailpipe

3. Smaller bore (5 mm) carb rotor

4. Different (more conservative) crankshaft timing

5. A diesel head




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RE: Irvine 20 diesel - 10/29/2012 5:36 AM   
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Status: offline 		Fiery the crank on the flea bay special has a shorter threaded portion of crank about 5mm ,strange

the carb on the factory is brass where the idle adjust screw is , black on the flea bay and sticks out further also carb has irvine across front of carb body at 45 degree angle
the NIB is certainly Irvine but no name of front of body both have black plastic backplates

mufflers identical

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RE: Irvine 20 diesel - 10/29/2012 6:44 AM   
fiery


 

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Status: offline 		Sounds like you have a very early glow version Martin, at some time converted to diesel with an Irvine factory head. Some photographs would be of help.

On some UK built Irvines, the crankshaft extension is a removable threaded stud. That may explain why it is short. It could be screwed fully home or have been replaced at some time with a slightly shorter stud.

Prior to the introduction of the "JetStream" metal body carburettor, Irvine made a carburettor out of a black composite material, which had the brand "IRVINE" cast in an ascending slope across the front. These earlier carburettors worked well. I have one on an Irvine .40 "Bumpy" dykes ringed gl*w engine.

***

Manufacturer part numbers, specific to the .20 diesel variant:

Cylinder head assembly: S-20D - 1020

Crankshaft: S-20D - 1175

Silencer complete: S - 20D - 1340

Carburettor complete: S-CJ-8500a



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< Message edited by fiery -- 11/4/2012 2:29 AM >

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RE: Irvine 20 diesel - 10/29/2012 6:49 AM   
Mr Cox



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Status: offline 		Martin, is it the same engine you where talking about earlier this year?
The differences where covered quite well in that thread; Irvine .20D

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RE: Irvine 20 diesel - 10/29/2012 9:43 AM   
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Status: offline 		fiery the flea bay version has the plastic black carb will check stud length thx for info my NIB looks like your pix martin

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RE: Irvine 20 diesel - 10/29/2012 9:27 PM   
Mr Cox



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Status: offline 		I had a look through some of my engines and it sounds like you might have a glow engine with a diesel head. No shame in that though, it might be a real screamer compared to the regular diesel ones. The carbs are made differently (look at the throttle stop for instance) and the intakes have a different diameter. The crank shafts are different in length too. The diesel crank might have been made longer in order to accomodate the larger props it would take, compared to the glow version. Here are a few pictures to show the differences;



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RE: Irvine 20 diesel - 10/29/2012 10:13 PM   
AMB


 

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Status: offline 		Yes indeed Mr Cox I have one of each mystery solved have one each with Irvine factory diesel head martin

They both have hex head head screws no flat slotted screws

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RE: Irvine 20 diesel - 11/3/2012 10:30 PM   
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Status: offline 		well guys ran the used one today the glow version base engine glow carb with the factory diesel head, compression not stellar, zinger wood 10x6 only 9200 ( terrible) would die below 4300 but think I can fix that by going richer on low speed needle reached 9200 at 3/4 open full open dropped to 8800 the tommy bar has quite an oil leak so its getting past the contra no head gasket leaks fuel Davis ABC tons of jet black oil out the pipe more than an engine I have every run, needle 3 and a half out below that slows down and stops
we were at 8800 but did get the 9200 with the tommy backed off 1/2 to3/4 turns martin
we should have had 10K plus on the revs maybe a very tired engine

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RE: Irvine 20 diesel - 11/3/2012 10:50 PM   
Mr Cox



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Status: offline 		Yes, it sounds like there is something wrong, it should do +10000rpm on a 10x6 (APC is what I'm used to though). The compression in these engines are usually very good.
The exhaust can get a little dark but it should not be pitch black.

What is in the Davis ABC fuel?

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RE: Irvine 20 diesel - 11/3/2012 11:00 PM   
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Status: offline 		Just pulled the carb not really tight fit in crankcase and guess what NO O RING just put one in, also on flipping now compression seems better, will re run tomorrow
maybe things will improve martin

too dark now for tach read

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RE: Irvine 20 diesel - 11/3/2012 11:36 PM   
AMB


 

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Status: offline 		Think it was just gummed up has a nice bounce now on flipping prop, there was no way a hand flip would start it before, put few drops down the carb 4 or 5 flips and off it roared
sounds right not going to mess with the low speed needle at this point re run in AM yes the oring under the carb

it was so stiff before hard to judge compression

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RE: Irvine 20 diesel - 11/4/2012 2:55 AM   
fiery


 

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Status: offline 		Martin

The Irvine diesel engines work well; by that I mean hand start readily with good power and throttle response, if the engine is in good condition. The .20D in particular is compact, light; and performs very well.

Apart from a tendency for the compression screw friction pad grub screw to back-out due to vibration when running (cured by a dab of thread low strength locking compound on the grub screw), the weakness with the Irvine diesel head design is two fold:

1. Repeated compression adjustment will wear the interference fit between the brass contra-piston and aluminium head more rapidly than is usually experienced with a traditional iron contra-piston/steel liner set up. Adjustment to hand start can be more than would required with a traditional "full width" "contra-piston in liner" set up, promoting the problem;

2. The contra-piston, especially in the .40D, is not very deep. They have been known to "cant" a little once a wear has taken place, making loss of compression seal even more marked. There are also reports of the contra-piston dropping out if the fit is loose and it is over-adjusted inwards. Modern push-pull heads do not suffer this issue. An extension at the top of the contra-piston engages a screw thread in the compression adjuster, and keeps the contra piston secure and in correct alignment.

The example I have (shown above) was also bought from the notorious on-line auction site. While cosmetically near perfect, it had been run over compressed over a long period of time. The piston had a thick layer of hard carbon on it. The little end on the con-rod had worn oval and loose on the gudgeon pin. The contra-piston also leaks profusely due to wear induced loss of fit.

The rod has been replaced with a good used item. A new brass contra-piston will be made. While the old piston and liner set still had good seal, a new P/L set will be installed.

Here is a video where one of these engines is restored using parts from gl*w and diesel donor engines:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kzto710Y8iM&feature=relmfu





< Message edited by fiery -- 12/9/2012 7:55 AM >

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RE: Irvine 20 diesel - 11/4/2012 3:18 AM   
AMB


 

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Status: offline 		Fiery hope mine does not have all these issues as stated, was just gummed up and missing the o ring seal on the carb, rod in good shape, no slop, we will see in the AM on the bench
sounds like yours needs to be majored a bit to get it in a 10 condition, sounds like the contra is its design weak point martin

Post note Davis made a run of heads for the 40 a few years back ALL my 40s wear them

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RE: Irvine 20 diesel - 11/4/2012 3:18 PM   
AMB


 

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Status: offline 		Sorry guys talking to my friends and relatives in the NE USA, the 2 coastal towns I lived in on the New N.J.coast almost destroyed , not into engine running today
right up there with the NZ earthquakes and Tsuami in Japan at least less loss of live here martin


my former shop on the river in Highlands where we repaired boats and did engine repairs and installations is gone a minor thing really compared to the houses gone

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RE: Irvine 20 diesel - 11/4/2012 8:52 PM   
AMB


 

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Status: offline 		Well just sitting here is not going to change anything so we just did a re run about 3PM

Good news since putting in the missing o ring on the carb body and opening the low speed needle about a turn idle 3300-3500 running reg needle about 2 1/2 open instant pick up to full throttle which is about 75% open on this carb

the tons of super black oil out the exhaust now dark brown grey smoke and still quite a bit of oil out the stack
it was impossible to get a consistent run yesterday with the needle all over the place due to missing O ring

Not so good news Lots of leakage around compression screw
max revs 9200 Zinger wood 10x6
9200 XOAR wood 12x4

compression well only fair but up a little bit today after about 10 minutes it was gummed up martin
this was a flea bay used engine guess well used

fuel fresh new can Davis ABC mix
Just looked at my numbers one my K and B 20
the 12x4 wood XOAR 8500 10x6 wood zinger 9000 same prop used today (the wood XOAR)
maybe the Irvine 20 numbers not that bad





< Message edited by AMB -- 11/4/2012 9:25 PM >

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RE: Irvine 20 diesel - 11/4/2012 9:53 PM   
AMB


 

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Status: offline 		just pulled head light oily soot just wiped off piston and head with paper towel nothing baked on, hand flip ok. but slowly turning prop compression loss, a new p/l not a bad idea contra flush with edge of head no protrusion martin
i would consider flyable as is , exhaust piped to rear a must or big mess

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RE: Irvine 20 diesel - 11/5/2012 3:51 PM   
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Status: offline 		Well the news from across the pond ( just Engines UK ) not good just got off the phone with Brian No irvine 20 parts left , We got into the 53 thing turns out the only thing OS used was the crankcase mold for the 46 and 53 and they are not making a run at this time so not available, not that I want an OSVINE martin

Typical Brit humor " you are only 20 years late" was told

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RE: Irvine 20 diesel - 11/15/2012 3:50 AM   
fiery


 

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Status: offline 		This engine (also shown by me above) was acquired from the on-line auction site as a parts prospect.

There is evidence of much over-compressed running. Head screws have been over tightened in the past.

Conrod was rattly loose on the gudgeon pin. What looked like a layer of bitumen coated the top of the piston.

Compression had also seen better days.

Piston and liner were replaced with a new set. A good used connecting rod was sourced and installed.

It then ran fine, but leaked from the compression screw hole. Contra-piston was loose from too much adjusting.

Transplant time. It now has the benefit of a new custom made contra-piston. Old contra-piston is shown next to the engine.



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RE: Irvine 20 diesel - 11/15/2012 6:02 AM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AMB

Sorry guys talking to my friends and relatives in the NE USA, the 2 coastal towns I lived in on the New N.J.coast almost destroyed , not into engine running today
right up there with the NZ earthquakes and Tsuami in Japan at least less loss of live here martin


my former shop on the river in Highlands where we repaired boats and did engine repairs and installations is gone a minor thing really compared to the houses gone

The last few weeks have seen quite a few things that make playing with our toys a lot less important.

The toys will always be there to cheer us up though, for now there is work to do.

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RE: Irvine 20 diesel - 12/9/2012 6:48 AM   
fiery


 

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Status: offline 		Renovation of the engine shown above is now complete. It runs nicely again. Just like an Irvine should.

A 9 x 6 Taipan black composite propeller is shown fitted.

Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAHDJWQs274&feature=youtu.be

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RE: Irvine 20 diesel - 12/9/2012 9:23 AM   
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Status: offline 		Engine runs well mate.
Love your throttle stick...lol

Fredo


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RE: Irvine 20 diesel - 12/9/2012 6:42 PM   
Mr Cox



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Status: offline 		They are very powerful for their size, but I find it a little tricky to get the compression right for different throttle settings (there is also a hesitation seen in the movie), and the exhaust residues tends to get rather dark;



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RE: Irvine 20 diesel - 12/16/2012 10:17 PM   
fiery


 

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Status: offline 		What you say is correct.

I acquired my first Irvine .20 right after they were released. It was a revelation.

It had the tail pipe restrictor in the muffler. Unless my memory is playing tricks, I feel it throttled smoother, with progressive linear pick up, and would tune perfectly with a light amber coloured exhaust.

I sometimes ponder whether the later .20 diesel engines (without the restrictor fitted to the muffler) are more prone to being set borderline over compressed.

Mr Cox, does yours have the restrictor in the tailpipe of its muffler?



< Message edited by fiery -- 12/16/2012 11:08 PM >

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RE: Irvine 20 diesel - 12/16/2012 10:54 PM   
AMB


 

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Status: offline 		Fiery have only run the used flea bay conversion, my NIB real one does NOT have a restrictor on the tail pipe and a factory installed hex head brass cap screw where the pressure tap on muffler goes martin

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