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AMA issues new guidelines for FPV - 11/1/2012 9:40 PM   
PLANE JIM



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Status: offline 		I see that "Visual line of sight" has to be maintained-and a restriction of 15lbs and 70 mph-what do you think?


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RE: AMA issues new guidelines for FPV - 11/1/2012 9:47 PM   
flyinwalenda


 

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Status: online 		I heard they were considering dropping the "buddy box" requirement.  Keeping line of site makes sense ...for your spotter.  15 lbs can leave quite a dent.
Is there a news link to this anywhere?


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RE: AMA issues new guidelines for FPV - 11/1/2012 9:50 PM   
mongo



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http://amablog.modelaircraft.org/blog/2012/11/01/ama-revising-fpv-policy/


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RE: AMA issues new guidelines for FPV - 11/1/2012 9:52 PM   
flyinwalenda


 

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Status: online 		Thanks !  Actually this just popped in my email .


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RE: AMA issues new guidelines for FPV - 11/1/2012 10:56 PM   
804


 

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Status: offline 		Maybe I just didn't see it,
but it appears there is no longer a requirement
for FPV to be done only on AMA chartered club grounds.

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RE: AMA issues new guidelines for FPV - 11/2/2012 2:08 AM   
KidEpoxy



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Status: offline 		compare these two groups of words:

d) FPV SPOTTER is an experienced AMA RC pilot who has been briefed by the FPV pilot on
the tasks, responsibilities and procedures involved in being a spotter; is capable and mature
enough to perform the duties and is able to assume conventional VLOS control of the aircraft via buddy box.

d) FPV SPOTTER is an experienced AMA RC pilot who has been briefed by the FPV pilot on
the tasks, responsibilities and procedures involved in being a spotter; is capable and mature
enough to perform the duties and is able to assume conventional VLOS control of the aircraft.


See what I am getting at here?
I have passed the tx back and forth a lot over the years, first learning to fly and then helping others learn. Glad to see we are getting back to our Pass-The-TX roots.




quote:

c) VISUAL LINE OF SIGHT (VLOS) is the distance at which the pilot is able to
maintain visual contact with the aircraft and determine its orientation without
enhancements other than corrective lenses

quote:

b) Model aircraft flown using FPV must remain at or below 400 feet AGL when within 3
miles of an airport as specified in the AMA Safety Code.

sweet, I can determine orientation of a 15lb non-scale model REALLY high...


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RE: AMA issues new guidelines for FPV - 11/3/2012 4:16 AM   
cj_rumley


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy

sweet, I can determine orientation of a 15lb non-scale model REALLY high...



Don't doubt  it..........I've eyeball tracked models to near 25K ft and through recovery and few of them exceeded 15lbs at launch.   400 ft?  Naw, we're exempt!

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RE: AMA issues new guidelines for FPV - 11/3/2012 2:40 PM   
littlecrankshaf



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quote:

ORIGINAL: 804

Maybe I just didn't see it,
but it appears there is no longer a requirement
for FPV to be done only on AMA chartered club grounds.

Yep...Hopefully more steps in the right direction will continue...I would like to see some organized events/competitions in which FPVs would have to negotiate a timed obstacle course. There are many places that aren't AMA chartered club flying sites that would be very suitable. I think the general public might find that very interesting... has the potential of promoting the hobby in a way never before seen.

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RE: AMA issues new guidelines for FPV - 11/4/2012 11:07 PM   
Charley


 

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Status: offline 		If you get on the FPV sites you'll see that there is a fine disregard for both AMA and FCC regulations. I infer that most FPV people are neither AMA members nor are they Hams. Their emphasis seems to be on how far they can fly the model out from their launch point without losing the video downlink; forget LOS. Moreover, lots of the FPV flyers think nothing of flying over populated areas at long ranges. I see that as a reckless disregard of the possibility of a bad accident. IOW, irresponsible.

The AMA is trying to respond to AMA members' input; IOW, those who believe in flying within the guidelines. As such, they are responding to the minority of FPV pilots but what else can they do? Another reason for the guidelines is to protect AMA from the inevitable large insurance claim when one of the reckless FPV flyer's airplane causes a terrible accident while being flown outside the guidelines.

I truly believe it's just a matter of time.......

CR

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RE: AMA issues new guidelines for FPV - 11/5/2012 2:23 AM   
littlecrankshaf



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Charley

If you get on the FPV sites you'll see that there is a fine disregard for both AMA and FCC regulations. I infer that most FPV people are neither AMA members nor are they Hams.


Why is being a HAM any material consequence?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charley




Their emphasis seems to be on how far they can fly the model out from their launch point without losing the video downlink; forget LOS. Moreover, lots of the FPV flyers think nothing of flying over populated areas at long ranges. I see that as a reckless disregard of the possibility of a bad accident. IOW, irresponsible.



You may have a point but most...err...all of what I have seen so far is small foam airplanes with FPV capabilities... maybe someone might would make some allowances/provisions to... well... up to 15lbs to justify or exact more control volume but who would ever do such a thing???

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charley
The AMA is trying to respond to AMA members' input; IOW, those who believe in flying within the guidelines. As such, they are responding to the minority of FPV pilots but what else can they do? Another reason for the guidelines is to protect AMA from the inevitable large insurance claim when one of the reckless FPV flyer's airplane causes a terrible accident while being flown outside the guidelines.



So, AMA is an insurance company??? Gets kind of confusing in here sometimes...When someone suggests AMA is an insurance company they get beat down by those that claim they aren't...then to make another case, some people contend they are...doing whatever to protect themselves from monetary loses...


quote:

ORIGINAL: Charley

I truly believe it's just a matter of time.......

CR




I guess you got a point...given enough time I guess anything is possible.

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RE: AMA issues new guidelines for FPV - 11/5/2012 2:49 AM   
init4fun


 

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Status: offline 		I can answer the your first question ;

The frequencys used for the video downlink portion of FPV lie within the FCC's frequency allocation for the Ham radio hobby . Specifically , one needs a "No Code Technician" license from the FCC to operate the TV gear at those frequencys . No license = Illegal operation , and this applies regardless of the mode of operation . Illegal use of channels is taken SO seriously in the Ham world that there are "vigilante Hams" that will track illegal signals just for their own satisfaction of turning the illegal operators into the FCC for punishment !

If you think there is class warfare in the RC plane hobby , you oughta take a look into the Ham radio hobby , as I did a number of years ago with the intention of becoming a Ham . What I saw was enough to make me say "no thanks" , and I restarted my long dormant RC hobby back up instead . For example , because proficency in Morse code is not required for the "No Code Tech" FCC rating , and most Hams who are Hams became so before such license was available , they look down in complete disgust at the "pretender Hams" as they call them , and call the rating the "No Good Tech"

Anyway , that's my input into this . Happy Flyin ....

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RE: AMA issues new guidelines for FPV - 11/5/2012 3:11 AM   
littlecrankshaf



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quote:

ORIGINAL: init4fun

I can answer the your first question ;

The frequencys used for the video downlink portion of FPV lie within the FCC's frequency allocation for the Ham radio hobby . Specifically , one needs a ''No Code Technician'' license from the FCC to operate the TV gear at those frequencys . No license = Illegal operation , and this applies regardless of the mode of operation . Illegal use of channels is taken SO seriously in the Ham world that there are ''vigilante Hams'' that will track illegal signals just for their own satisfaction of turning the illegal operators into the FCC for punishment !

If you think there is class warfare in the RC plane hobby , you oughta take a look into the Ham radio hobby , as I did a number of years ago with the intention of becoming a Ham . What I saw was enough to make me say ''no thanks'' , and I restarted my long dormant RC hobby back up instead . For example , because proficency in Morse code is not required for the ''No Code Tech'' FCC rating , and most Hams who are Hams became so before such license was available , they look down in complete disgust at the ''pretender Hams'' as they call them , and call the rating the ''No Good Tech''

Anyway , that's my input into this . Happy Flyin ....

Thanks init4fun,

I knew that was how it once was but I thought the advent of newer transmission frequencies like 2.4GHz and 900 MHz eliminated at least some of the issues... but I am open to learning ...

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RE: AMA issues new guidelines for FPV - 11/5/2012 2:28 PM   
jester_s1


 

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Status: offline 		The AMA provides insurance, but is not just an insurance company. That's a pretty simple concept to understand, IMO.

I just read through the new regulations last week and as I see it, most FPV pilots aren't going to comply. It sounds to me like the AMA is playing it conservatively on the safety front, and essentially publishing these regulations so that AMA insurance coverage isn't available for those who want to push the limits of what FPV can do. AMA has never covered pilots who fly over houses or people, and they aren't going to start now. Flying beyond LOS hasn't been possible before, but until the FPV links become rock solid reliable the AMA is being smart not to cover that either. What I can honestly see happening is a few incidences of FPV pilots damaging someone's property or scaring/hurting some bystanders and then the FAA gets involved again. AMA will be quick to point out that the pilots in question were not following AMA guidelines, which then will become a mandate for the AMA guidelines to become law for all RC pilots. Then the chances of these current regulations being relaxed become virtually nil. Whereas if we'll all fly responsibly now in a few more years a grassroots campaign to relax the regulations some more will probably be successful.

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RE: AMA issues new guidelines for FPV - 11/5/2012 3:15 PM   
init4fun


 

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A quick note to LCS ,

Last nite after we talked , I got curious and did some reading about FPV frequencies . I hate to just parrot the commonly held beliefs without peekin "behind the curtain" in order to ensure my facts are straight . I discovered that there is not only the issue of frequency , but also of how much power a transmitter is allowed to emit on that frequency . It would appear that the FPV pilot needs two frequencies that work well together and do not cross/interfere with each other . These frequencies can and do encompass the "free" band in some instances , but with some fairly limiting power restrictions . A pilot flying FPV per AMA document 550 will be within LOS , so great transmitter power is not needed at such comparative close range . But , when these flights begin to span more than a mile or few away , the transmitter power allowed under the free bands becomes woefully inadequate . This is when RF (Radio Frequency) amplifiers are employed , and the use of them puts the FPV pilot into the power levels that do require the Ham license .

Now , as to the insurance angle for everyone else , I can understand the AMA not wanting to insure FPV beyond LOS due to the increased risk of model plane vs civilian interaction . FPV per doc. 550 presents no more risk than any other type of RC flying as the model is being flown within the confines of an established RC field (or parkflyer environment) and subject to the safety norms of such activity . Once the flying begins to happen over people's heads as happens with "unrestricted" FPV , the risk is , in my humble opinion , too great for an incident of plane vs people contact . Even if this FPV is being flown within AMA parkflyer protocol , the parkflyer rules also state no flying over folks heads . This just seems good common sense / the model plane that's not flown over someone's head is far less likely to end up hitting that particular noggin .

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RE: AMA issues new guidelines for FPV - 11/5/2012 4:22 PM   
Charley


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: init4fun


If you think there is class warfare in the RC plane hobby , you oughta take a look into the Ham radio hobby , as I did a number of years ago with the intention of becoming a Ham . What I saw was enough to make me say ''no thanks'' , and I restarted my long dormant RC hobby back up instead . For example , because proficency in Morse code is not required for the ''No Code Tech'' FCC rating , and most Hams who are Hams became so before such license was available , they look down in complete disgust at the ''pretender Hams'' as they call them , and call the rating the ''No Good Tech''

Anyway , that's my input into this . Happy Flyin ....


I'm sorry you were put off by your interaction with a few ham curmudgeons. The situation is evolving away from what you experienced about the "no code" ham. Although I've been a working electronics tech all of my adult life (I'm 74), I didn't get into amateur radio until I got my Tech license in Feb, 2011 in order to be legal in FPV. I went on to get my General and Extra licenses mainly because of the challenge of studying for them and passing the exams. I haven't experienced any patronizing behavior such as you described. In fact the ham club I'm in, Hill Country Amateur Radio Club, conducts night classes at the community college for those who want to pass the Technician exam and we hold exam sessions 3 times a year for those who want to take the tests. Most hams now communicate on FM or single-sideband voice modes. Give us another chance, we'd be glad to have you!

73,

CR, af5ao


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RE: AMA issues new guidelines for FPV - 11/5/2012 4:26 PM   
littlecrankshaf



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quote:

ORIGINAL: init4fun


A quick note to LCS ,

Last nite after we talked , I got curious and did some reading about FPV frequencies . I hate to just parrot the commonly held beliefs without peekin ''behind the curtain'' in order to ensure my facts are straight . I discovered that there is not only the issue of frequency , but also of how much power a transmitter is allowed to emit on that frequency . It would appear that the FPV pilot needs two frequencies that work well together and do not cross/interfere with each other . These frequencies can and do encompass the ''free'' band in some instances , but with some fairly limiting power restrictions . A pilot flying FPV per AMA document 550 will be within LOS , so great transmitter power is not needed at such comparative close range . But , when these flights begin to span more than a mile or few away , the transmitter power allowed under the free bands becomes woefully inadequate . This is when RF (Radio Frequency) amplifiers are employed , and the use of them puts the FPV pilot into the power levels that do require the Ham license .

Now , as to the insurance angle for everyone else , I can understand the AMA not wanting to insure FPV beyond LOS due to the increased risk of model plane vs civilian interaction . FPV per doc. 550 presents no more risk than any other type of RC flying as the model is being flown within the confines of an established RC field (or parkflyer environment) and subject to the safety norms of such activity . Once the flying begins to happen over people's heads as happens with ''unrestricted'' FPV , the risk is , in my humble opinion , too great for an incident of plane vs people contact . Even if this FPV is being flown within AMA parkflyer protocol , the parkflyer rules also state no flying over folks heads . This just seems good common sense / the model plane that's not flown over someone's head is far less likely to end up hitting that particular noggin .

So did you find that FPV pilots do not necessarily need to be HAMs?? Your post eluded to "no need" but was a little less than perfectly clear for some of us IMO.

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RE: AMA issues new guidelines for FPV - 11/5/2012 5:00 PM   
init4fun


 

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Hi Gents ,

To Charley , Thank You for your post . I had considered getting into Ham at was a tense time in the hobby due to the no code tech having been established and the prospect of loosing frequencies to ever expanding commercial interests . A very good friend is an Extra (or is it advanced ? He is the top catagory of license , whichever that one is) class Ham and I wanted to get into the hobby as it looked interesting to me . I bought a few radios to listen with , a "Swan 500" , a Heathkit "HW-101" , and a Yaesu (spelling ?) something else and I listened . No transmitting , I would not do that even once without a license , so I bought a Cantenna to practice tuning em up without broadcasting . As I listened , I heard not only the negativity tword the no code , but also that for many , it wasn't the quality of the contact , but the quantity . those contests where they make as many contacts as possible didn;t really seem to be conversations at all , more like roll calls "Present !" , and then on to the next contact . I like that you came here and posted an urging to look into it again . I just may do that

To LCS ,

It wasn't easy to decipher , even after 2 hours of searching and reading , but it seemed that FPV with 72 MHZ rc control and 2.4 GHZ video IS legal within the power limits allowed for each frequency . The rub is , that the power limits (I thought I read 300MW for 2.4 video) imposed on "free use" are so restrictive that ya wouldn't get much further away than LOS anyway before you began to loose signal . So any flights like you hear of encompassing 5 or so miles are being done with Amplified gear , and that's what falls into the license realm .

Since the presented information from sources like wikki and other search programs seems rather confusing to the average Joe (Me ) , it would be really great if some Ham operator would lay out exactly what the regs and restrictions are , and aren't . We have all been told repeadly that a license is required for certain operations , and I want a specific chart as to what is what , frequency and power level wise .

A Nice friendly Ham in the know could clear up a lot of confusion here by setting me straight on what's what . Hint , hint ...... Charley , maybe ?

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RE: AMA issues new guidelines for FPV - 11/5/2012 5:47 PM   
mongo



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Status: offline 		" Nice friendly Ham"

sounds like an oxymoron to me.

befor folks get bent, kilo baker 5 victor golf juliet


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RE: AMA issues new guidelines for FPV - 11/5/2012 5:59 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mongo

'' Nice friendly Ham''

sounds like an oxymoron to me.

befor folks get bent, kilo baker 5 victor golf juliet

Funny rit thar...

FWIW Our club president is a HAM also and his stories are very much in line with the controlling mindset some or most HAMs have... They seem to have conformist attitude... many times. Maybe just an ugly side-effect of belonging to some "official" group

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RE: AMA issues new guidelines for FPV - 11/6/2012 12:23 AM   
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Status: offline 		Nice friendly HAM here. Any and all radio tranmissions on an Amateur Radio Frequency (ham band) requires a Amateur Radio License regardless of power level. To transmit on a ham frequency you must have a ham license. Your class of license determines which frequencies and power levels you may use.

Although I passed a Morse code test to get my amateur license years ago, I will talk to any licensed operator regardless of how long they have been licensed or whether they passed a code test or not. Ham radio is just like any other hobby, there are idiots among us and eventually you run into one of them. Just ignore them and enjoy your hobby.

Eddie Dean, WA4DRM


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RE: AMA issues new guidelines for FPV - 11/6/2012 2:51 AM   
littlecrankshaf



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Status: offline 		Good post Eddie. Maybe you can tell us if one must be a Ham to legally do FPV modeling. Or IOW is there a way for modelers to FPV legally without being a Ham?

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RE: AMA issues new guidelines for FPV - 11/6/2012 2:53 AM   
init4fun


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EddieDean

Nice friendly HAM here. Any and all radio tranmissions on an Amateur Radio Frequency (ham band) requires a Amateur Radio License regardless of power level. To transmit on a ham frequency you must have a ham license. Your class of license determines which frequencies and power levels you may use.

Although I passed a Morse code test to get my amateur license years ago, I will talk to any licensed operator regardless of how long they have been licensed or whether they passed a code test or not. Ham radio is just like any other hobby, there are idiots among us and eventually you run into one of them. Just ignore them and enjoy your hobby.

Eddie Dean, WA4DRM



Welcome to the discussion Eddie .

Yes , as I have been told by several Hams , I know that to operate on Ham frequencies unlicensed is Illegal .

OK , now , with that stated , what we really need to know is ; "Of the frequencies commonly employed in the flying of FPV , exactly which are legal for free use , and which are verboten without the Ham license ?"

The frequencies I've found mention of in my research of the flying of FPV are ;

433 and 869 MHZ
900 MHZ
1.2 and 1.3 GHZ
2.4 GHZ
5.8 GHZ


Now this list may not be complete , I compiled it from a couple of FPV forums and wikki . I would hope that 2.4 is allowed , since our modern RC systems are all on 2.4 , having moved from 72 MHZ a fistfull of years ago . Can you verify which of the others are which , and if there are any others you may know of ?

My interest lies in not wanting to keep repeating the same info I've been repeatedly told by other hams when asked , when not one of those asked has yet to say for certain which frequencies belong to which group , free or licensed .


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RE: AMA issues new guidelines for FPV - 11/6/2012 8:23 AM   
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Status: offline 		I'm not an expert on any of the available FPV equipment. So I don't know what frequencies they use. You can find a nice Amateur Band Chart produced by the ARRL (Amateur Radio Relay League) at http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Hambands_color.pdf

If any manufacturer is using ham frequencies they should inform the purchaser that an amateur radio operators license is required to be legal.

In the 70's and 80's I competed in AMA pattern contests and I used 6 Meter Ham Radio R/C equipment. That required a Technician, General, Advanced or Extra Class license. Any ham operation above 50 MHz still requires one of those licenses.

Ham operators are very protective of their operating bands (because of government and commerical interest trying to taking them away) and will track down and report any illegal use.

Also be aware that Amateur Radio Operators cannot use the ham bands and equipment for any commercial purpose. For instance I could not fly my 6 Meter R/C airplane for money. Not that anyone ever offered.

Hope this helps.


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RE: AMA issues new guidelines for FPV - 11/6/2012 10:51 AM   
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Status: offline 		Don’t mean to muddy the waters here but I believe most of the FPV equipment on the market today has FCC certifications that make them legal for normal consumer use. If it is some overseas ‘stuff’ that didn’t go through the FCC certification process it is illegal for use in the US and I’m willing to bet many FPV users either are not aware of that or ignored it. I think where there is really a problem is when certified equipment is modified by the user, especially when boosting power.

Regards
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RE: AMA issues new guidelines for FPV - 11/6/2012 1:52 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: phlpsfrnk

Don’t mean to muddy the waters here but I believe most of the FPV equipment on the market today has FCC certifications that make them legal for normal consumer use.

Regards
Frank

Hmmm...Seems much words to cast doubt about FPVers frequency use in this thread...then someone makes a clear headed statement like this...unfortunately what followed seemed word-smithed to continue the doubt casting about them no-good-for-nothing-ruless-no model having FPVers...


If we could just form an organization that would outright ban the darn FPVers, then all would be well... We could point to that organization as proof positive that FPVers are not worthwhile and chastise those that practice the despicable activity with impunity never before imagined... Wouldn't that be grand??? To have an another organization that validates our interests all the while shoring up our ability to devalue other's pursuits??????????????????????????????

_____________________________

Wow! Another epiphany…that is why the suckups suckup. Super sucking protection power. Yea baby.

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(in reply to phlpsfrnk)
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All Forums >> RC Airplanes >> AMA Discussions >> AMA issues new guidelines for FPV
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