Tiger 60 Aileron changes (Full Version)

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Leroy Gardner -> Tiger 60 Aileron changes (11/10/2012 9:46 PM)

I'm getting ready to build the Tiger 60 and those long narrow aileron's can pose a flutter as I see it. While it don't seam to be a problem in most builds it was mentoined that there was been flutter issues on some. It's easy to see why, with the control horn mounted in the center on a stick aileron that narrow flutter could happen from my perspective.

I am not a aeronautical engineer so I'm asking for experienced knowledge on this one. If I cut the length in half and bouble the width would I still have the control of the full length one. I know that other similar planes do it that way so why not the Tiger ?.

Your expertise would be well recieved, thank you, Leroy



jester_s1 -> RE: Tiger 60 Aileron changes (11/11/2012 4:07 AM)

You'd still have enough control, but you won't be improving the flutter characteristics. The negative with going to the barndoor ailerons is that in a stall you're more likely to lose aileron control. If you're worried about it a couple of mass balancers on each aileron will raise the flutter frequency so your plane won't ever be able to make it happen.



thailazer -> RE: Tiger 60 Aileron changes (11/11/2012 12:16 PM)

I had flutter on my Tiger 2 and had to go to dual aileron servos. The problem is that those long torque rods store up energy and cause the flutter issue. I don't think there is any good solution besides the dual aileron servo set up. I tried mass balances and aerodynamic spades but neither got rid of the flutter. With the dual servos mounted 25% down each aileron, no issues at all.



Leroy Gardner -> RE: Tiger 60 Aileron changes (11/12/2012 10:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jester_s1

You'd still have enough control, but you won't be improving the flutter characteristics. The negative with going to the barndoor ailerons is that in a stall you're more likely to lose aileron control. If you're worried about it a couple of mass balancers on each aileron will raise the flutter frequency so your plane won't ever be able to make it happen.


Hi jester, You are talking about something over my head here, mass balancers, lost aileron control, frequency ? I have never had flutter problems on my planes, I know for the most part what causes it. I may have missled led you some by stating the problem someone else has had. What I was really looking for was what if any differences would it make by changing the aileron design and not changing the flight charateristics in the process. These long plank ailerons may be fine on smaller planes but as they get bigger and the loads get greater it just makes sence that you can carry that design so far. The Super Sportster and Cherokee wing is almost the same wing thats on the Tiger except for ailerons and the Cherokee has flaps and aileron design as I mentioned above So these two planes fly just great with out board 1/2 wing ailerons and recover from any thing you can do with them. So where do you get the idea of losing aileron control in a stall, if that were the case there would be planes of all sorts going into the ground no matter what and put those makers out of business. Maybe you know something I don't and subsuquent others. Please explain as I may have miss understood what you said.

Thanks Leroy



Bozarth -> RE: Tiger 60 Aileron changes (11/13/2012 3:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thailazer

... long torque rods store up energy and cause the flutter issue. ...


Store up energy? You mean like a battery? Or a rubber band? Please elaborate.

Kurt



Leroy Gardner -> RE: Tiger 60 Aileron changes (11/13/2012 5:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Leroy Gardner


quote:

ORIGINAL: jester_s1

You'd still have enough control, but you won't be improving the flutter characteristics. The negative with going to the barndoor ailerons is that in a stall you're more likely to lose aileron control. If you're worried about it a couple of mass balancers on each aileron will raise the flutter frequency so your plane won't ever be able to make it happen.


Hi jester, You are talking about something over my head here, mass balancers, lost aileron control, frequency ? I have never had flutter problems on my planes, I know for the most part what causes it. I may have missled led you some by stating the problem someone else has had. What I was really looking for was what if any differences would it make by changing the aileron design and not changing the flight charateristics in the process. These long plank ailerons may be fine on smaller planes but as they get bigger and the loads get greater it just makes sence that you can carry that design so far. The Super Sportster and Cherokee wing is almost the same wing thats on the Tiger except for ailerons and the Cherokee has flaps and aileron design as I mentioned above So these two planes fly just great with out board 1/2 wing ailerons and recover from any thing you can do with them. So where do you get the idea of losing aileron control in a stall, if that were the case there would be planes of all sorts going into the ground no matter what and put those makers out of business. Maybe you know something I don't and subsuquent others. Please explain as I may have miss understood what you said.

Thanks Leroy


I think I figured out what you were trying to say. A tip stall is the result of not useing the rudder while takeing off and landing in most cases and has nothing to do with flutter and, I just found out what a mass ballancer is so it's been a day of learning



David Bathe -> RE: Tiger 60 Aileron changes (11/13/2012 7:50 AM)

Leroy, build in two aileron servos instead of using the torque rods.
Did this years ago on my Tiger 2, folks have done it on their Tigers and flutter was never an issue.
Servos are so cheap, the process so simply and the results are so much better.
Do it and enjoy the Tiger... it's a lovely 'plane.



TomCrump -> RE: Tiger 60 Aileron changes (11/13/2012 12:48 PM)

David has the right idea.

Dump the torque rods, and build in two servo mounts.If you're still worried about flutter, you could also seal the gap between the trailing edge and ailerons.

Enjoy your Tiger. They fly well.



daveopam -> RE: Tiger 60 Aileron changes (11/13/2012 5:11 PM)

Do as the two previous posted suggested. As a side note, I knew someone who flew one for years with a ST 90 and a tuned pipe. At the end of each aile he built a counter balance. He had a control horn mounted facing forward with a 1/2" of rod ending at the hinge line. On the end of each rod was enough lead so the aile would balance without the servo hooked up. They must have worked because he sold the plane to another member who broke one of the weights off. A few flights later he was in a high speed dive and that aile fluttered and stripped the servo gears costing him the plane.

Not saying this is something you have to do. His combo was much faster than any other Tigers I have seen.

david



lfinney -> RE: Tiger 60 Aileron changes (11/15/2012 7:15 PM)

i am currently flying the 60 tiger arf, i used futaba 9202 servos in the wing, I used ball bearing clevis/horn combos and carbon rods, and its powered by a jett .90 zero flutter issues...



Leroy Gardner -> RE: Tiger 60 Aileron changes (11/17/2012 12:15 AM)

Ok I got the info. I was really looking for. I'm going to build convex ailerons on out board wing so it's getting some changes, as a matter a fact the plane is getting several changes. I guess I'm lucky, I have not had flutter issues on my planes so I have never sealed those surfaces. Tom how do you do that, I may need to do it at some time. I hear some do it but I don't recall having ever seen it.

Thanka for your input,



kwblake -> RE: Tiger 60 Aileron changes (11/17/2012 11:07 AM)

Hey Leroy.  I also have a Tiger 60 that will get built down the road.  Right now I am working on building the garage, so it will be a while.  Could you post a photo of your ailerons and wing, when you get them built.  I am subscribed.

Thanks



TomCrump -> RE: Tiger 60 Aileron changes (11/17/2012 12:16 PM)

Leroy

Sealing the gap is easy. I seal the bottom of the surface
Take a strip of covering, the length of the aileron, and a couple inches wide. Iron it to the wing's trailing edge. Flex the aileron to provide it's max throw, and iron the covering to it. The gap will then be sealed.



Bozarth -> RE: Tiger 60 Aileron changes (11/17/2012 8:23 PM)

I seal on top of the hinge line - it gives a finished look.

Kurt



dbacque -> RE: Tiger 60 Aileron changes (11/17/2012 9:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jester_s1

If you're worried about it a couple of mass balancers on each aileron will raise the flutter frequency so your plane won't ever be able to make it happen.

Jester is giving good advice here. I have a very fast Hots that was plagued with flutter problems. Every time I'd fix one flutter and go a little faster, another flutter would pop up. After putting monster size linkage on everything and solving all the tail flutters I started having aileron flutter. The problem was the flex inherent in the long, thin balsa aileron stock. The linkage was solid but the flex in the balsa let the tip of the aileron flutter while the torque rod held the root of the aileron solid. I added mass balancers about 5" from the tip of the ailerons and no more flutter. For a while anyway. Of course there's no guideline as to the geometry of the balancer or the weight needed. I tried one and it worked for a while. Eventually I dove fast enough that it fluttered again. So I made another set of balancers with a little more weight. Problem solved. It's never fluttered again.

It's just a threaded piece of music wire with a fishing weight soldered on and it moves the CG of the aileron forward. The angle was tweaked to what was needed to just keep the weight from hitting the wing covering at full aileron deflection.

Dave



Leroy Gardner -> RE: Tiger 60 Aileron changes (11/18/2012 5:32 AM)

Well one thing is for sure, there are several ways to do this. I'm bashing this build and will be posting on the Goldberg Tiger Club build and welcome anyone to come visit us. I'm doing the convex mounted ailerons on the out board of the wings, those do not flutter. "Oh , thats at Kit Planes Site".

Thanks for all the input,



bikerbc -> RE: Tiger 60 Aileron changes (11/18/2012 5:50 AM)

I have built several Tiger 2 and tiger 60 planes...The tiger 2 kits ,plan have torque rods the Tiger 60 has dual ailerons...The dual ailerons is a better system ...Easy to change the Tiger 2 over if a person wants to...One thing you can also do is use the torque rods for flaps and cut your ailerons in down to about 2/3 the size...Minn Flyer encouraged this mod on the Ultra Sport Build and it worked very well.I did it on my Ultra Sport ...Ailerons are most effective on the outboard portion of the wing..I also choose a hard piece of aileron stock..It will flex less..You can also laminate a piece of 1/6 ply between two pieces of balsa to make a stiff aileron that has less flex...None of my Tigers have ever fluttered but I have seen it happen and it can sure wipe a plane out in a hurry...I havent used the mass balancers but I know they work...



DavidAgar -> RE: Tiger 60 Aileron changes (11/18/2012 4:15 PM)

I have flown Tigers for years and flutter has never been an issue with any of them. I have used 2 servo's in the wing as well as the toruqe rods and once again, no flutter issue's at all. Good Luck, Dave



Leroy Gardner -> RE: Tiger 60 Aileron changes (11/19/2012 5:34 AM)

You all have been very helpfull and for you having these problems the answer is here. I have seen flutter tear control surfaces clear off a plane and the following crash as a result. Flutter no matter how little needs to be corrected right away, don't wait. I know what causes it and now we know how to fix it, thanks to all.



Bozarth -> RE: Tiger 60 Aileron changes (11/19/2012 5:37 AM)

Or slow down! Not all airframes are capable of ripping around at 100 mph.

Kurt



Leroy Gardner -> RE: Tiger 60 Aileron changes (11/19/2012 5:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TomCrump

Leroy

Sealing the gap is easy. I seal the bottom of the surface
Take a strip of covering, the length of the aileron, and a couple inches wide. Iron it to the wing's trailing edge. Flex the aileron to provide it's max throw, and iron the covering to it. The gap will then be sealed.


Tom I know you have built many planes and of different stiyles and air foils but sealing the two surfaces hinge line to prevent air from passing through them can be accomplished with a nearly gapless joint. With proper fitted and hinged ,say ailerons, done that way I don't see how flutter will happen because there is no air movement through there.. I see many IMAC planes with very large control surfaces and they are not sealed rather very tight fitting. So I tend to belive it's more about fit than anything else. I know speed plays a roll here but I don't know the other conditions that may also have something to do with it.

Would you care to elaborate for us all



Leroy Gardner -> RE: Tiger 60 Aileron changes (11/19/2012 5:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kwblake

Hey Leroy.  I also have a Tiger 60 that will get built down the road.  Right now I am working on building the garage, so it will be a while.  Could you post a photo of your ailerons and wing, when you get them built.  I am subscribed.

Thanks



Hi kwblake, My build will be done at Kit Builders Site under Goldberg Tiger Club Thread come join us there. I should have something to show after Thanksgiving. I'm in the process of making the small parts for my changes, some may like what i'm doing.



kwblake -> RE: Tiger 60 Aileron changes (11/19/2012 5:41 PM)

Hey Leroy.  Already there.

Thanks



Leroy Gardner -> RE: Tiger 60 Aileron changes (11/20/2012 5:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kwblake

Hey Leroy.  Already there.

Thanks



Should have read the whole post, could have something to do with age, "sure hope not".

Hope you get your garage up, I here winter comes early your way. Storming like crazy here, not snow, just pouring and high winds. Catch up to you where the Tigers hang out[;)]



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