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RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses? - 11/15/2012 8:53 AM   
abufletcher



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RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses? - 11/15/2012 9:08 AM   
abufletcher



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Status: online 		One thing I'm wonder about there is the layering of paint types. The covering(s) will absolutely be filled with water-based Polycrylic. There's no way to avoid this as it's vital for the process. And then I need to put down a white grid background and then the black crosses on top of that.

I had been planning to use simple latex for the white background, but isn't enamel on top of water-based paints a no-no? Would I have to use enamel for the white too...and would that white enamel bond to the PolyC?

(I need to dig out the compatibility chart that TFF posted.)

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RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses? - 11/15/2012 11:16 AM   
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RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses? - 11/15/2012 11:40 AM   
abufletcher



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Status: online 		Actually, the German crosses of WWI (and some WWII and later uses) are referred to as Pattee crosses. The Maltese cross is different.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_patt%C3%A9e

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltese_cross

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RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses? - 11/15/2012 1:08 PM   
willey



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RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses? - 11/15/2012 1:23 PM   
abufletcher



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RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses? - 11/15/2012 2:18 PM   
pmerritt


 

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Status: offline 		All windshield wiper fluid does is thin down latex and dilute the color.   If you want better flow consistancy, use Floetrol.  You can get it at most Home Depots, any paint store.  It contains water and acrylic latex and doesn't dilute the tinting like most liquids do.  They make Penetrol for oil based paints which works awesome as well. 

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RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses? - 11/15/2012 2:23 PM   
willey



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quote:

ORIGINAL: abufletcher

One thing I'm wonder about there is the layering of paint types. The covering(s) will absolutely be filled with water-based Polycrylic. There's no way to avoid this as it's vital for the process. And then I need to put down a white grid background and then the black crosses on top of that.

I had been planning to use simple latex for the white background, but isn't enamel on top of water-based paints a no-no? Would I have to use enamel for the white too...and would that white enamel bond to the PolyC?

(I need to dig out the compatibility chart that TFF posted.)


enamel over latex has never created a problem for me, done it plenty, thinning the paint when your painting anything is the most important part specially in hand lettering, it takes a little practice and doing to understand how important that step is, that is why the majority of people go wrong and give up.

On your first question... I would do this, make the traceable pattern of the Pattee as I discussed earlier first with manila folder, after that make a masking tape "sheet" oversized then the Pattee by taking the "green" 3m masking tape and overlapping it say by a 1/4" or use 2" tape much better/less seams. Any good tape works for this - DO NOT USE cheap tape ever for this process ever, most of the time I use a Transfer tape that is used for applying vinyl lettering it makes an awesome mask, but it might /probably wont stick to well on the fabric. OK now do this process on a hard flat surface that you can cut on, then squeegee down very good. lay/tape your pattern over the tape, pencil around it or hit it with a "spray can" any color will do so you have an outline, then cut it out with an exacto #11 with a new blade (VERY IMPORTANT STEP in cutting any mask), now peel the background off and pitch that, now you have a "male" stencil. OK, lay your box out on the plane wing/fuse with a pencil then tape that off just outside the line so the paint will cover your pencil, next peel your stencil off your board "carefully" so you don't stretch it out, stick that where you want that -squeegee down the edges pretty good. now paint your white background, peel tape back off, now you have a silhouetteof the Pattee. Let that dry then free hand the Pattee.

Now putting latex on an enamel bkgd. you could have a problem with it adhearing, you would need to scuff the surface really good to get any life out of it.

well hope I didn't confuse you, oh for that paint and transfer tape check out all the sign shops, they might just give you some?? it dont take much paint and tape for these projects.


On Thinning the paint... hope I explained that right, didn't want you to think that you just thin the paint with kero, that is just an additive to the paint not a reducer, a cheap alternative to Penetrol, So you need Paint, Thinner, and possibly the kero., its only a maybe thing if your having a problem with it too tacky. If your layering paint NEVER put kero on the bottom layer you will have an ocean of fish eye's on your top layer if you do!!!

The 38 and the Hoover 51 is for Murray.....

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RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses? - 11/15/2012 2:29 PM   
willey



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RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses? - 11/15/2012 3:09 PM   
abufletcher



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quote:

ORIGINAL: pmerritt
All windshield wiper fluid does is thin down latex and dilute the color.   If you want better flow consistancy, use Floetrol.  You can get it at most Home Depots, any paint store.  It contains water and acrylic latex and doesn't dilute the tinting like most liquids do.  They make Penetrol for oil based paints which works awesome as well. 


The closest Home Depot is roughly 5,500 miles away!

Willey, I'm going to have to read your post several times to fully digest it.

*****

By the way, I used some lacquer thinner (at least that's what it says on the ca in Japanese) to thin out some old Testor's enamel that had gotten a little thick and when I started brushing it on, all of these little bubbles came out as if the thinner hadn't mixed at all with the enamel.


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RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses? - 11/15/2012 3:26 PM   
abufletcher



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Status: online 		By the way, what IS the difference between "paint thinner" and "lacquer thinner?" They both smell foul!

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RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses? - 11/15/2012 3:35 PM   
TFF


 

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Status: offline 		If you are looking at a Japanese label, you might have a translation issue. Real lacquer thinner is for real lacquer paint. but lacquer is also slang for paint some places, and there are tons of paint so saying paint thinner is like saying I like wine. Well what kind of wine; red, white, bla bla bla. Most US cans that say paint thinner are for oil based paints; in small print it says mineral spirits.

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RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses? - 11/15/2012 3:56 PM   
abufletcher



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Status: online 		Japanese is notoriously slippery. I have two cans. One actually uses the English word "paint" (in Japanese kana characters) before the Japanese word for thinner. The other uses the kana-version of "lacquer" (raakkaa) before the same Japanese word for thinner. The fine print on the "lacquer thinner" can, or at least what I can read of it, says it for use with lacquer, varnish, and shellac.

Cutting to the chase, is enamel thinner different from either of these two other thinners?

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RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses? - 11/15/2012 4:29 PM   
TFF


 

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Status: offline 		Mineral spirits can be used to thin something like Rustoleum, but when you say enamel it gets into the what kind of enamel. Enamel has to to with oxygen curing, it does not really say anything about what it is made of. The smell will be probably the key; if the paint and thinner smell the same you should be OK. If they dont smell the same dont mix.

< Message edited by TFF -- 11/16/2012 2:39 AM >

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RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses? - 11/15/2012 4:34 PM   
TFF


 

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Status: offline 		Mix some. If they are not compatible you will know. Thinned paint may eat at a lower level better than if it was left alone. More thinner means more solvent that has to evaporate which means more is sitting on the surface for longer periods. Careful.

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RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses? - 11/15/2012 10:38 PM   
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Status: offline 		All I know is laquer thinner for your laquers and enamel reducer for your enamels. You might be able to use mineral spirits for enamel , but not sure. A good stripping brush makes all the difference in the world. I have also seen some good pin stripers lay down a fine line tape on a long run and it becomes one edge of the stripe.

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RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses? - 11/16/2012 2:56 AM   
eindecker 3


 

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Status: offline 		I took the easy way out and used some flat black vinyl for the crosses on my Eindecker over the white background that I spray painted. My EIII is 2 1/2 years old and the vinyl has held up well.

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RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses? - 11/16/2012 3:52 AM   
unclecrash



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Status: offline 		Your eindecker looks good. What is the covering and color Antique? I have a 80in span one needs finishing. Cannot remember the company but it's not the Balsa USA.

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RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses? - 11/16/2012 6:41 AM   
abufletcher



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Status: online 		I found some paint labeled as enamel at the hardware store...it says to thin with "paint thinner" (not the lacquer thinner) so that resolves that question. It looks promising. Is your 80in eindecker the SR Batteries kit? If so, from what I've heard and seen, the sport scale lines are virtually identical to the BUSA eindecker but it's a very well made kit. Everyone who has built one describes it as a joy to build.

My first scale model (about 8 years ago) was an Fokker EIII which, while it started life as a BUSA Eindecker 40, ended up almost entirely scratch-built (except for the wing, which I cut in half and mounted on a tube).

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As you can see I had a little Photoshop fun with the first and third photos

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RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses? - 11/16/2012 8:49 AM   
abufletcher



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Status: online 		Incidentally, one of Dave Platt's dicta for scale modeling was "Never use pure black or pure white." He felt that taking off the "edge" by adding a little white to black and a little black to white, increased the model's realism.

< Message edited by abufletcher -- 11/16/2012 10:41 AM >

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RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses? - 11/16/2012 8:55 AM   
JRMS



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Status: offline 		Hello abufletcher,
I thought for sure it would be an easy google image search
looking for “Painting insignias” or “Insignias painting”.
I expected to at least see a lot of WWII photos.
To go with your photo, I only found these.


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RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses? - 11/16/2012 9:16 AM   
JRMS



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Status: offline 		I'm a happy follower of your Albatros C.I forum.
In this thread you coment of the photo In post #6 you say that the photo is the only photo of the plane you are modeling.
What are some of the differences between other C.I planes and the one your modeling.
While searching for the insignias being painted, I found many photos that where claimed to be Albatros C.I


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RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses? - 11/16/2012 10:31 AM   
abufletcher



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Status: online 		The enamel paint is much MUCH better even on my test on plain paper.

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RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses? - 11/16/2012 10:39 AM   
abufletcher



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Status: online 		Thanks for posting the further photos. I suspect though that all of these (including the one I posted) are photo-ops arranged after the fact. I think they can still be taken as evidence the many markings were hand-painted, but maybe not much about actual production techniques (such as size and type of brush, etc.).

quote:

ORIGINAL: JRMS
What are some of the differences between other C.I planes and the one your modeling.


The CI was in production from 1915 through to the end of the war and with licensed production by several companies so inevitably there was a lot of minor variations. The most obvious differences were in which engine was used ('my' C110 actual has a Mercedes but I wanted to model the Benz!) and the width of the struts and maybe the specific arrangement of the radiator (which is linked to the type and HP or the engine). Also only the very earliest CI's had the varnish fuselage. Most were either light blue or gray.


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RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses? - 11/16/2012 1:36 PM   
gabriel voisin


 

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Don 90% of the german colors and the markings were applied with a 6 cm wide brush.
You can say it's the German standard .... "DIN".
Never were painted with a brush for an artist, .....that's total nonsense.
Just because it makes a guy, it must not be right .... only on the outskirts.
Depending on the company, the markings were covered with a stencil and then painted over.

greetings



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