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RE: Choice between DLE20 and Mintor 22, What would you ... - 11/21/2012 4:04 PM   
littlera


 

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Status: offline 		I have a Mintor 22 mounted in a Seagull Spacewalker II and am very well satisfied with it. It starts easy, has very linear throttle response, and is more than enough power for my plane. I usually cruise about at 3/4 thorttle.

I have a carbon fiber Falcon 17 x 6.5 prop mounted, and although not fully broken in yet (1 gallon of fuel through it) it tachs at 8300 rpm on the ground. Seems very stout to me.

I have not heard anything about these engines being "fragile." I have not had any problems, and you don't hear much of anything about any difficulties on the **** forum in about 100 pages of postings.

If you run the DLE 20, you are fortunate that there is good service support for it - from what I read you will probably need it. I have seen MANY photos of this eingine disassembled with broken crank pins.

I like the design features of the Mintor engine also. The cylinder has a Nikasil coating like a Porsche 911.



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RE: Choice between DLE20 and Mintor 22, What would you ... - 11/21/2012 4:41 PM   
raydar


 

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Status: offline 		 Considering the amount of dle 20s that have been sold over 3 years there is actually very few posts about crank pins shearing so dont really know what point you are trying to make. Engines turning 16 6 apc props at 10000 rpm im sure was the cause of a couple of the few failures.  Please stop trying to turn this into a **** fight.

As for mid range, again where is the proof that the mintor has a better torque in the mid range. More speculation with no back up!.

As for mid range burble, if you have it on a gasser, have a good plug with enlarged gap and still cant tune it out I suggest setting your carb metering needle height as it will sort the midrange. A well set up carb on a dle 20 or rcg 20 will NOT burble in the mid range. How do I know this, because my dle 20 was a pig from the factory with hard to set needles and a super rich burbly mid range that caused numerous dead sticks. Only after a carb kit change including a new needle (with rubber tip) set to the correct height was the dle 20 tamed. Now purrs like a kitten and has no burble.

And before anyone says you wont get this issue with a new x type motor/carb I call bull.  Any carb on any engine can require adjusting even if it is a walbro. Its just your luck.

I used to set toyota car carbs on pre delivery inspections before they ever reached a customer. These cars were new from factory and had not even done 10 miles but required dialing in.


Peronally I dont think you can go wrong with a dle 20, rcg/rcgf 20 and most likely the mintor is the same.

Falcon 17 6.5 at 8300 sounds like its in the ballpark with the other 20,s but not far more powerfull as some would claim. Thanks for the usefull prop data.


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RE: Choice between DLE20 and Mintor 22, What would you ... - 11/21/2012 4:45 PM   
hsukaria


 

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Status: offline 		Armody,
In your description of your existing gasser plane, I could not tell if you had an optical kill switch. The optical kill switch allows you to cut off ignition from your transmitter. That is used along with the usual battery switch for safety reasons in case you have a runaway condition during flight (like a stuck throttle).
The optical switch is highly recommended (almost compulsory) in our club.
I have to agree with AHICKS on the wing loading issue. Even if you are an expert flyer, a super high wing loading kills the fun of flying, IMHO.
From reading what others have said, the NGH engine is less powerful than Mintor, DLE, or RCG/F. RCGF is cheaper, but I heard that some of them had quality issues, maybe from early production runs? I'd keep the choices between Mintor or DLE, unless you have extra money laying around and can afford the OS22 .

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RE: Choice between DLE20 and Mintor 22, What would you ... - 11/21/2012 5:10 PM   
raydar


 

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Status: offline 		 You know what this forum needs, a thread for youtube videos that shows engines and prop choice and tacho results all on video, that way any bull claims can be dismissed and real info can be seen. Any comments on engine manufacturer should be banned from the thread as it would simply be a real power info thread.

There is plenty room for quality and reliability discussions on the rest of the forum.

That way constructive choices can be made.

If anyones interested in it I can start it off?.

Sorry if I have went off topic.


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RE: Choice between DLE20 and Mintor 22, What would you ... - 11/21/2012 7:36 PM   
plaurence


 

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Status: offline 		 Raydar,
just bought a friend's Revolver woth a dle 20
the was flown for 5 months,3 to 5 tomes a week
This id my first gasser.im having the midrange issue as well as the idle issur.
when going from full throttle to idle, the idle stays high for about  20 seconds then lowers down to the proper
rpm. I orderd a new dle carb which i havent received yet.

what do you mean by screw height?
also, which carb kit did you use? 
Rubber tipped needle?

thanks

Trying to the transition from glow to gas.


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RE: Choice between DLE20 and Mintor 22, What would you ... - 11/21/2012 7:45 PM   
raydar


 

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Status: offline 		The high idle problem is due to the ignition having a funny timing curve, it is a common problem, do a search.
 
Some say to richen the low end needles, so the ignition timing step is not as obvious but of course if you already have a burbly rich mid range you will only make that mid range problem problem worse by richening the bottom end.

there is walbro rebuild kits out there, the full kit comes with a metering needle, this has a miniscule rubber tip on it, my factory dle needle appeared to be missing this (only metal).  The needle has to be set to the right height or you will struggle to tune your motor without a burble.

I suggest you search these issues and if still do not get the info you need start your own thread as someone elses thread is prob is not the best place to discuss your issue.

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RE: Choice between DLE20 and Mintor 22, What would you ... - 11/21/2012 8:04 PM   
tailskid



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Status: offline 		plaurence, I too have the same problem....the only solution is a LONG high approach and hopefully by the time the ground comes up to meet the plane, it is idling.....

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RE: Choice between DLE20 and Mintor 22, What would you ... - 11/21/2012 8:30 PM   
raydar


 

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Status: offline 		 actually the solution is to get a dle 30 ignition which does not come with the silly timing curve. Cheapest option is to live with it but its not the only option.

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RE: Choice between DLE20 and Mintor 22, What would you ... - 11/21/2012 8:31 PM   
TimBle


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ahicks

Mody,
You're asking for input so here's my take on what you're talking about doing. I think I've mentioned this already, but I think you're talking about a plane/engine combination that's going to take skilled handling due to fairly high wing loading (snap happy, especially at lower speeds)? Landings and take offs may be dicey with a lot of cross wind, but in flight, you probably won't have to worry about how it's going to handle the wind. It'll be heavy enough where it's not going to get blown around much at all. Verticals should be decent due to momentum, but vertical acceleration? Maybe not so much...

You're talking about a 10-11 lb plane (according to the specs, which are generally on the kind side) with 750 sq in of wing area. A sport plane with 750 sq in would typically weigh less than 8lbs., fun/good ones closer to 6-7lbs? If you want to know what this combo is going to fly like, compare it to others with similar wing loading. To help, think 40 size plane with a heavy 60 in it. Some might like how something like that flies?

Pure opinion here, but I wouldn't put a 20 in anything smaller that 850 sq in. That's me though... not saying what you're talking about can't be done.

There's a bunch of us flying 70" Revolvers on 20cc gas. I was scared it would fly like what I was talking about above, but the guys flying them sounded like they were having a blast, so I jumped in. I love it! It's the smallest 20cc gasser I would consider now. Specs: 850 sq in/9.5lbs It's fast, it's slow, and it's got great vertical. FWIW -Al



I don;t know what your point is. If its that the Dewoitine will fly like a dog with a 20cc gasser up front then you're likely wrong. Its designed for a 1.25ci 4stroke even a 1.50ci.
There are plenty of .60cui size planes with these engines fitted that are flying superbly.



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RE: Choice between DLE20 and Mintor 22, What would you ... - 11/21/2012 8:35 PM   
Enterprise6


 

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Status: offline 		I actually have the first Mintor 22 brought into the US as we got to sort of beta test it.  It went back for some updates and I just put in a Bowman ring.  It is installed in a 3DHS 70" Velox and with the Falcon 17x6.5 carbon I am very happy with it's performance.  RPM on the ground is aroun 8500.  With the 17x6 Falcon it was 8800.  I wanted it to turn a Mejzlik 18x6, but it only gets 7900 RPM and is not as punchy as with the smaller Falcon. 

I have not owned a DLE-20 to compare it to.  The only complaint was mentioned before in it's unimpressive muffler.  It is pretty loud and is basically a exhaust deflector.

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RE: Choice between DLE20 and Mintor 22, What would you ... - 11/21/2012 10:36 PM   
ahicks


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TimBle


quote:

ORIGINAL: ahicks

Mody,
You're asking for input so here's my take on what you're talking about doing. I think I've mentioned this already, but I think you're talking about a plane/engine combination that's going to take skilled handling due to fairly high wing loading (snap happy, especially at lower speeds)? Landings and take offs may be dicey with a lot of cross wind, but in flight, you probably won't have to worry about how it's going to handle the wind. It'll be heavy enough where it's not going to get blown around much at all. Verticals should be decent due to momentum, but vertical acceleration? Maybe not so much...

You're talking about a 10-11 lb plane (according to the specs, which are generally on the kind side) with 750 sq in of wing area. A sport plane with 750 sq in would typically weigh less than 8lbs., fun/good ones closer to 6-7lbs? If you want to know what this combo is going to fly like, compare it to others with similar wing loading. To help, think 40 size plane with a heavy 60 in it. Some might like how something like that flies?

Pure opinion here, but I wouldn't put a 20 in anything smaller that 850 sq in. That's me though... not saying what you're talking about can't be done.

There's a bunch of us flying 70'' Revolvers on 20cc gas. I was scared it would fly like what I was talking about above, but the guys flying them sounded like they were having a blast, so I jumped in. I love it! It's the smallest 20cc gasser I would consider now. Specs: 850 sq in/9.5lbs It's fast, it's slow, and it's got great vertical. FWIW -Al



I don;t know what your point is. If its that the Dewoitine will fly like a dog with a 20cc gasser up front then you're likely wrong. Its designed for a 1.25ci 4stroke even a 1.50ci.
There are plenty of .60cui size planes with these engines fitted that are flying superbly.




My point is pretty simple? We're talking about an 11 lb+ plane on a 750 sq in wing. I think most will agree that's getting right up there regarding wing loading. That's it. That's my only point? FWIW.... -Al

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RE: Choice between DLE20 and Mintor 22, What would you ... - 11/22/2012 12:01 AM   
armody



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Status: offline 		Guys,

First off, I will not point finger at anyone on anything WHY? First I respect you all, secondly you are all much more well experienced than me LET ALONE GAS ENGINE'S EXPERIENCE. Why I started this thread, because to get your input what do you all suggest when it comes to pick out of two motors Mintor 22 or DLE20. Almost 3 years ago, we have few guys in our club started using DLE20 and they had few issues initially but they admired the motor. DLE20 has pretty much made a standing in the market, that's why the first gas motor I wanted to buy was DLE20. I've kissed GLOW MOTORS GOODBYE, so I'm not going to use any glow engines.

I don't wanna reiterate over and over again what I've said before. I started this thread to get to know the experiences of y'all between DLE20 and Mintor 22. If I were to go on and on, on DLE20 just like I rejuvenated the Jody's DLE20 topic and asked various questions on DLE20.

I added one more thing to this thread was Seagull Model's Dewoitine D.520, and the motor for it, either DLE20 or Mintor 22, and I wanted to go with Mintor 22 since it's the same price as DLE20. I care less about RPM and Dang props, all I care it should run good with 17X6 or 17X8 prop whatever is recommended for Mintor 22. Horizon Hobby's just specified about Glow motors sizes 1.20-1.25 2-stroke; 1.20-1.25 4-stroke not about gas motors. As far as wing loading is concerned I know this much about it, that whole plane's weight rely on wing loading, I don't know if these are symmetrical or asymmetrical wings. I honestly speaking do not know the calculation of what much, about chord and wing loading. I'd love to hear about the explanation of wing loading here.

You guys all are right in your perspective, nobody's wrong here, but all I wanna know your choices, comparisons, analogy, durability and which can take how much abuse, that's not I'm concerned about cos I ain't gonna push these motors to their limits, as I don't do that. I can call myself Intermediate to Advanced Pilot, but not expert, what's the criteria of that, I don't know. I just wanna have fun, keep those planes flying safely, not to crash them, because just like all of us we put our hard earned money on these, and these planes are our babies and we don't wanna lose our babies which is inevitable but still we do our best.

Anyway, Dewoitine D.520 with Mintor 22 or DLE20 is gonna be a good combo or not http://www.horizonhobby.com/products/dewoitine-d-520-1-20-arf-SEA2580?showRatingsReviews=true#t2

How about this war bird http://www.americanpioneerhobbies.com/39%20spitfire%20120_scale.html

Thank y'all


Mody

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RE: Choice between DLE20 and Mintor 22, What would you ... - 11/22/2012 12:03 AM   
armody



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Status: offline 		HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO Y'ALL AND TO YOUR FAMILY.

I'm gonna eat turkey tomorrow since my wife's cooking thought I ain't a big fan of it

Mody

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RE: Choice between DLE20 and Mintor 22, What would you ... - 11/22/2012 12:46 AM   
littlera


 

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Status: offline 		I am sure either the DLE 20 or the Mintor 22 will work well in the plane you are contemplating. As I said earlier, my Mintor is also in a Seagull model - the Spacewalker II 120 size. While the wing loading on my plane is lower than yours, and it will surely not fly as fast, there is some commonality in that they are both made by the same Vietnamese company and are similarly rated for power. As I said, my plane is perfectly powered with the Mintor 22, and I usually apply full power only for takeoff.

The Spacewalker is rated by Seagull for 1.0 to 1.5 cubic inch 4 cycle (depending on which spec you believe - one place says 1.0 - 1.25; another says 1.25 to 1.5 cubic inch.) I tend to believe they MEANT 1.0 - 1.25 2 STROKE and 1.25 - 1.5 4 STROKE, but that is just my hunch. Anyway, the power specs for your plane are right in the middle of those. My plane was rated at 11 lbs. by Seagull - actual weight is about 12.3 lbs. Even with a glow engine, it would be almost as much as it is now. The wing loading is in the range of 25 oz/ sq. in. with the Spacewalker, therefore about the same as many trainers and is a floater. The WWII subject has a smaller wing (about 750 sq. in. vs. 1086 sq. in. for the Spacewalker) yet the weight will be about the same, resulting in the higher wing loading, probably in the 35 to 36 oz. / sq. in. This is not unusually high for a WWII fighter subject. It will fly faster than my plane to be sure. It will need a higher pitch prop than my 17 x 6.5inch. The 20 or 22 engine will probably work well with about a 16 x 8 prop on your plane. Definitely more pitch than 6.5 inches. Neither of the engines will turn a 17 inch prop very well with pitches above 6.5 inches.

The only review on the Dewoitine on the Horizon web site was written by a customer that put an un-named 20 cc gas engine in his, and even after putting the eztra weight of retracts onboard, he was very happy with the result.

Don't worry about it. Either engine should fly that plane well.

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RE: Choice between DLE20 and Mintor 22, What would you ... - 11/22/2012 1:36 AM   
armody



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Status: offline 		littlera,

Thanks for a great input. Since I had a choice between DLE20 and Mintor 22, so I'm also thinking now between Sea Fury or Dewoitine. I gotta look up for the manual of Sea Fury for the specs

http://www.horizonhobby.com/products/sea-fury-91-120-arf-SEA3565#t3

Mody

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RE: Choice between DLE20 and Mintor 22, What would you ... - 11/22/2012 2:11 AM   
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Status: offline 		I have been flying a dle 20 for the last 2 yrs currently working on gallon #5 with no problems. Running 40:1 motul off road with 17x6 zoar in this plane.
http://www.nitroplanes.com/ul12055nigas.html it weighs 9lb 15 oz. The dle will pull her out of sight vertical with no problems.. and the plane flies very well doing about any manuver you want. I wish i could put it on a diet and lower my wing loading a bit as she does have some snap tendencies but only if i really push the throws while flying slow. The fast idle curve actually helps me keep my speed up when landing..... once on the ground she slows to the usual 1710 rpm idle and gently rocks the wings like a top fueler

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RE: Choice between DLE20 and Mintor 22, What would you ... - 11/22/2012 2:55 AM   
littlera


 

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Status: offline 		Mody,

The Sea Fury would be a good subject too - looks like a nice outfit.

I checked the specs, and the Fury has more wing area (about 850 sq. in.) and is still listed at 11 lbs. This will give a bit lower wing loading (and thus maybe gentler handling) than the other plane. I see in the manual that the distance from the back of the prop to the firewall is 150 mm. This is almost precisely the clearance needed for the Mintor (and DLE as I remember.) This includes clearnace for the rear of the carb, and in the case of the Mintor at least allows the use of the beam mounts supplied with this size Seagull kit, with the front engine mount bolts just at the front edge of the nylon beams, with about 1/4" to spare.

One of the advantages of the Mintor engine is the fact that the muffler is in two pieces - the exhaust pipe bolts to the muffler body. I used this to my advantage, cutting the cowl only enough to slip it over the engine with the muffler body ONLY mounted, then bolted the exhaust pipe to the muffler body with a long allen wrench. Very neat, and makes cowl removal and install pretty easy.

You also can specify either of two mufflers when you order the Mintor, allowing easy inverted or side mounting of the engine. Side mounting the engine you require the "profile" muffler, inverted gets the standard muffler. You should order from Top Dawg (USA exclusive distributor) to specify muffler. I am not sure Chief is prefared to offer the muffler choice.

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RE: Choice between DLE20 and Mintor 22, What would you ... - 11/22/2012 5:31 AM   
armody



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Status: offline 		Littlera,

Would you be able to get the pix of both mufflers, the standard muffler and the other one and post it here for Mintor 22?

Johnfly, the plane looks nice and the price is not bad either!

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RE: Choice between DLE20 and Mintor 22, What would you ... - 11/22/2012 5:35 AM   
armody



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Status: offline 		For Sea Fury or Dewoitine, standard servos can be used?

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RE: Choice between DLE20 and Mintor 22, What would you ... - 11/22/2012 5:58 AM   
kochj


 

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Status: offline 		"To look at the cylinder bore on a DLE, it is amazing the engines run as good as they do for the bore is not very accurate compared with DA, OS, BME, 3w, ZDZ, zenoah, Mintor"

"I know what you mean. Took my DLE 30 apart and replaced the piston ring with a good Boman ring. The cyl bore looks like you say...kinda leaves a lot too be desired...but the porting does allow for good power. Also a Zenoah you could run it wide open for extended periods...don,t try it with certain DLE engines.

The Mintors are carefully built up at the factory to close tolerances. Although the DLE engines are pretty good, I don't think they pay that much attention to its assembly and tolerances. The DLE's are assembled more like mass production utility engines for trimmers, blowers, and so on. Cost being the main driving factor. "

These are some of the quotes that I have witnessed...
No need to keep discussing that which has been discussed many many many times, and that is the debate between the china engines, and high end engines...
There is more to just rpm's.... much more....
If you think long term instead of short, you will know what to purchase...
OS has a GT22 that is very good, and has a muffler that you can actually use, and that doesn't sound like a tin can....

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RE: Choice between DLE20 and Mintor 22, What would you ... - 11/22/2012 6:12 AM   
armody



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Status: offline 		kochj,

Thanks for a great input, and I've never be able to use O.S. glow engine due to its price. GS22 looks beautiful with a great price tag of $409.99 and I cannot afford it, where as for $500 I can get the plane and motor, but quality has a price and O.S. does not need any introduction. I think I've pretty much made up my mind for Mintor 22, someday when hopefully I'll be making 6 digits salary, I will go for more bigger engines, and my choices will be DA, 3W or Zenoah!, I think Zenoah is also Japanese if I'm right?

Thanks

Mody

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RE: Choice between DLE20 and Mintor 22, What would you ... - 11/22/2012 11:52 AM   
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Status: offline 		I am using standard servos in my big Spacewalker. I have a computer program that calculates servo load based on geometry of the controls, airspeed, deflection, etc. I ran the Spacewalker info through this program, and all looked good with standard servos. The models you are looking at are the same size, more or less, but will fly faster. If it were me I would go with at least 100 oz. - in. rated servo on the elevator, and maybe rudder. The rest should be OK.

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RE: Choice between DLE20 and Mintor 22, What would you ... - 11/22/2012 12:01 PM   
littlera


 

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From: Advance, NC, USA
Status: offline 		The profile muffler is shown with the body of the muffler toward the prop, but it can be mounted with the body toward the carb - very versatile. For that matter, the standard muffler could be mounted the other way too.

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RE: Choice between DLE20 and Mintor 22, What would you ... - 11/22/2012 3:27 PM   
tailskid



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From: Tolleson, AZ, USA
Status: offline 		Now that's a unique idea....I like it!

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RE: Choice between DLE20 and Mintor 22, What would you ... - 11/22/2012 4:21 PM   
TimBle


 

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From: Cape Town, SOUTH AFRICA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ahicks


quote:

ORIGINAL: TimBle


quote:

ORIGINAL: ahicks

Mody,
You're asking for input so here's my take on what you're talking about doing. I think I've mentioned this already, but I think you're talking about a plane/engine combination that's going to take skilled handling due to fairly high wing loading (snap happy, especially at lower speeds)? Landings and take offs may be dicey with a lot of cross wind, but in flight, you probably won't have to worry about how it's going to handle the wind. It'll be heavy enough where it's not going to get blown around much at all. Verticals should be decent due to momentum, but vertical acceleration? Maybe not so much...

You're talking about a 10-11 lb plane (according to the specs, which are generally on the kind side) with 750 sq in of wing area. A sport plane with 750 sq in would typically weigh less than 8lbs., fun/good ones closer to 6-7lbs? If you want to know what this combo is going to fly like, compare it to others with similar wing loading. To help, think 40 size plane with a heavy 60 in it. Some might like how something like that flies?

Pure opinion here, but I wouldn't put a 20 in anything smaller that 850 sq in. That's me though... not saying what you're talking about can't be done.

There's a bunch of us flying 70'' Revolvers on 20cc gas. I was scared it would fly like what I was talking about above, but the guys flying them sounded like they were having a blast, so I jumped in. I love it! It's the smallest 20cc gasser I would consider now. Specs: 850 sq in/9.5lbs It's fast, it's slow, and it's got great vertical. FWIW -Al



I don;t know what your point is. If its that the Dewoitine will fly like a dog with a 20cc gasser up front then you're likely wrong. Its designed for a 1.25ci 4stroke even a 1.50ci.
There are plenty of .60cui size planes with these engines fitted that are flying superbly.




My point is pretty simple? We're talking about an 11 lb+ plane on a 750 sq in wing. I think most will agree that's getting right up there regarding wing loading. That's it. That's my only point? FWIW.... -Al



So are you suggesting that its a poor subject or that fitting a gasoline engine is a poor choice?

Your information makes a lot of noise without actually being constructive.



< Message edited by TimBle -- 11/22/2012 4:48 PM >

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