Hi-Start vs Winch - Area Needed ? ? (Full Version)

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BalsaBob -> Hi-Start vs Winch - Area Needed ? ? (11/20/2012 3:32 PM)

I'm presently using a HD Hi-Start to launch my BOT. Problem is that I can only utilize it when the wind is from a certain direction ..... due to the amount of space/length that is needed with the H-Start. Does a winch significantly reduce the space/area that is needed to launch ? ?

Thanks. Bob



Ranfred Radius -> RE: Hi-Start vs Winch - Area Needed ? ? (11/20/2012 3:46 PM)

Yes, a winch will effectively cut the required field length considerably because the line goes out to a turn around and back to the sailplane.

Randy



Art ARRO -> RE: Hi-Start vs Winch - Area Needed ? ? (11/20/2012 5:02 PM)

Bob,
I feel your pain, as I have to setup my hi start diagonally at my home field which only favors a NW or SE wind direction-plus I have to put up with the hassle of the prop pilots snagging my chute or line on their takeoffs or landings.
A winch  will generally get you higher with a zoom launch, which may be hard on your wings.
Remember that you can only achieve the height of the distance to the winch turnaround without zooming. Winches also take some time to setup (and take down) at the field and they are rather expensive as compared to a hi start or even an electric setup on the model.  There are many threads on electrifying the BOT on this forum.  I've electrified most of my sailplane fleet many years ago and only have a couple "pure" sailplanes which I handlaunch or slope soar. 

Art ARRO



BalsaBob -> RE: Hi-Start vs Winch - Area Needed ? ? (11/20/2012 5:14 PM)

Thanks for the reply Ranfred. Hello Art. Yeah, .... I want to keep it a true sailplane without on-board power.

The better winches are a bit pricey ..... I'm considering a tow-plane as an alternative. I've noticed that some people are electrifying some of the larger Big-Stik type planes and have had success .... at a reasonable cost. There is usually always someone at the field that could pilot the tow plane.

Bob




aeajr -> RE: Hi-Start vs Winch - Area Needed ? ? (11/20/2012 6:23 PM)

Here is what you need.   About the price and the power of a good hi-start, but works like a winch.   BTW if you are using a Dynaflite HD HS, I don't consider that a good hi-start.   No disrespect intended.

OneWinch - www.onewinch.com
If you don't need the super power of a ford long shaft winch or you want to avoid all the walking of pulling your hi-start out to 800 feet, take a look at the Onewinch. I have one. Works like a winch in the space of a winch but about the power of a hi-start. No battery, very light and easy to use. And a LOT less walking than a hi-start. Posted several posts/reports starting on bottom of the page.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=10717138
Videos on this page - around post 158.
ESL Newsletter - Go to the 4th post for the report
http://www.flyesl.org/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=453


If you prefer an electric winch but, again, don't need teh big power of a FLS winch, take a look at this:

Little Big Winch
ESL Newsletter - Go to the 4th post



BalsaBob -> RE: Hi-Start vs Winch - Area Needed ? ? (11/20/2012 7:33 PM)

Thanks aeajr ..... that OneWinch looks perfect ! I did not even know there was such a thing.

Bob



LovesToSail -> RE: Hi-Start vs Winch - Area Needed ? ? (11/21/2012 10:00 PM)

If you are looking for a winch let me know... I am upstate NY - mine is just sitting here.  Ford long shaft, nice turnaround, string would likely need to be replaced.

Scott
PS - too old to winch, just right for hybrid in the nose winch :)



BMatthews -> RE: Hi-Start vs Winch - Area Needed ? ? (11/23/2012 7:58 PM)

Go get to the same height I've never seen a winch setup that used less ground than a HI Start setup. The thing is that they both need to be laid out and pulled back to about the same distance before launch because they'll both retract about the same amount of line to achieve the same final release height.

That One-Winch setup looks pretty good. But from watching the guy doing the self launch it's saving about 25 to 30 paces worth of distance overall. It still needs a lot of room to set it out if you want to get the same final release height. But it IS a nice looking option that does not require a motor and battery or use a power source that lays there and rots in the sun over a couple of years.

Bob, you may just need to become more practiced with doing launches in a quartering side wind situation. Or is the issue that the line lays down over some nasty overgrown brush when it comes down?

I've seen folks that are pretty comfortable with allowing the model to climb initially by letting it crab somewhat to the downwind side just after the release and then correct and climb up more or less into the wind. Others simply correct and climb in a normal straight away path with the model cocked sideways slightly. In either case you will lose a little hieght in such a launch but it does let you keep on flying.



aeajr -> RE: Hi-Start vs Winch - Area Needed ? ? (11/26/2012 12:09 AM)

Mr. Matthews, I am not sure I agree with you on that.  I belive a winch can get a glider to a given height in less space than a hi-start



da Rock -> RE: Hi-Start vs Winch - Area Needed ? ? (11/26/2012 1:25 AM)

Whooo boy..... Can we have a 3 way fight here???

Just kidding.... I don't want to fight.

Don't wanna fight because I think a winch can win in the right conditions and will lose in the wrong conditions for it, while a highstart can win with the right flyer and conditions and nobody special on the winch. So.... let me get to it...

One day we had the winch setup and everybody was getting better launches from it than the couple of highstarts that were out. Then somebody brought out a longer, stronger highstart and drove it's pin into the ground down where the winch turnaround was. Game over, right. Nope.... It was the perfect time for a bet however. Ran my mouth a bit while pulling back the winch's chute. And got a bet going. Went over and got out my my 14 footer and discussed what the original wording of the bet covered..... got that settled. Hooked up the big mother and clicked in some flaps. Pedaled the mother up about 20degrees and let off the foot pedal while working the elevator. You see there was a decently solid breeze. You can "crank" line off a winch with some careful flying. It's sorta like working bait past where the fish are when they're less interested. Pull some, let some back out. Pull some, let some back out.

However..... you can do the same thing on a high start on blustery days. So if you can word the bet right........

My vote on which can get a glider higher would be whichever way the bet was worded.

Wanna put a bet on that....



LovesToSail -> RE: Hi-Start vs Winch - Area Needed ? ? (11/26/2012 2:16 AM)

Age and treachery will always overcome youth and in-experience 



OzMo -> RE: Hi-Start vs Winch - Area Needed ? ? (11/26/2012 2:24 AM)

Rock,
I have only heard of "kiting the winch". We were visited at our last contest by two more experienced glider flyers. Kiting was a topic of discusion as was how to manage the brake to allow the glider to pull off line. 2000 feet of line is not uncommon on a winch so 1000' is possible. My 3 meter Hose Monster high start when fully assembled is 700' before stretching....it won't do 1000' but it might do 800 or so in a stiff breaze. 500 to 600 is more likely. Fun topic though [:D]

Wind direction for either makes line retreival a pain if trees or scrub are close by. I just love Mo black locust trees and multiflora rose bushes!
Oh ya, the visiters with the 4 meter CF moldies are more likely to be able to "kite the winch" than my GL and BBXL[;)]



da Rock -> RE: Hi-Start vs Winch - Area Needed ? ? (11/26/2012 2:43 AM)

Heck, kiting was almost more fun than the flying some days.

Back when I lived in glider heaven (YOU READY FOR THIS... in Minnesnowta !!! yeah, Minnesnowta was glider heaven.... slopes everywhere and sod farms for thermalling)........

back when I flew gliders with one of the best bunch of R&D modelers I've ever been associated with, the guys got the bit in their teeth to create a better winch system. Bigger.... sure.... with retrieval? sure.... and tuned clutches or somesuch.... why not. I think somebody was designing a homing chute that wasn't going to require retrieval line. Of course, he was going to make it work on highstart or winch.

anyway.... the wind blows up there just about all the time. Or it did for the years I lived there. Heck it even blew in the middle of the night. Cyalumes had just come out then too..... uh, anyway..... With the right wind and a decent sized glider, kiting wasn't real hard to do as I remember. But for me at least, it did have an altitude limit somewhat. I always felt it was the weight of the line or what you see when it's at certain angles above you. Or the TERROR you feel when the sucker is BEHIND you.

Like I suggested, I think the competition between the two is dependant on the wording of the bet.

And I bet somebody has just the right glider to bring out your hose monster's potential.



aeajr -> RE: Hi-Start vs Winch - Area Needed ? ? (11/26/2012 3:17 AM)

As I see it, for the hi-start to have a simiar heith launch you need it to be at rest a little short of the winch length.  Then you have to pull back, as much as 300 feet. So, to fully deploy 100 feet of rubber and 400 feet of line you need 800 feet.

To have similar winch line out you need about 550 to 600 feet.

Now, the stronger the breeze the less line you need to pull in on the winch and the less the rubber will collapse.  But in all cases you have to stretch the rubber, typically 3X the length of the rubber in order to have any pull on the line.  Something you don't have to do with the winch.

At the top of the launch, if your wings are reasonably strong, you can zoom off the winch and pick up 100 or more feet in height.  While you can get some bump on the typical hi-start it will not compare to a winch.

If you have delicate wings that can not take the force of the winch then you must gently tap it up and come of the line easy.  In this case you might actually get a higher launch with the gentle hi-start, but you will need more room as you have to stretch that rubber.
 



da Rock -> RE: Hi-Start vs Winch - Area Needed ? ? (11/26/2012 3:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: aeajr
might actually get a higher launch with the gentle hi-start, but you will need more room as you have to stretch that rubber.



But if you have room to stretch the rubber........... [;)]



aeajr -> RE: Hi-Start vs Winch - Area Needed ? ? (11/26/2012 2:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: da Rock


quote:

ORIGINAL: aeajr
might actually get a higher launch with the gentle hi-start, but you will need more room as you have to stretch that rubber.



But if you have room to stretch the rubber........... [;)]


Just remember that the whole basis of this discussion was about someone who does not have room to stretch the rubber.


Edit:  Note that I base my comments on owning my own winch, using winches for about 8 years, owning 2 hi-starts and a OneWinch.  Your experience may differ.



LovesToSail -> RE: Hi-Start vs Winch - Area Needed ? ? (11/27/2012 3:52 AM)

If you are not flying competition - there is another choice that will ensure that you are always setup to launch into the wind and you won't have to spend 15 minutes setting up the winch, the line, the turnaround or have to fix line breaks, knotted drums after a GREAT launch :) etc..

Its called a hybrid - winch in the nose ;)  i.e. convert to electric.... it is what I did - I know some view this as sacrilege but hey, I thought I would mention it.

Scott



da Rock -> RE: Hi-Start vs Winch - Area Needed ? ? (11/27/2012 1:59 PM)

So the deal is the original poster has a set space to launch in.

There won't be room to stretch his highstart out farther. There is a set amount of room, period. What happens now is fairly simple.

For any highstart to work to it's maximum in a set space, it will have to be tuned to that space. Once tuned, you'll be getting the max launch highstarts can give for that space with that highstart. If you don't want to do the tuning, then the answer to the question isn't simple. A winch setup is tuned to whatever length you lay the sucker out to. And wheter or not the winch the OP is using is going to be better than whatever highstart he's using will depend on how badly the highstart is suited to the length he's stuck with. There is a high probability that any winch will work better in his case than whatever highstart he has will be suited to the area. hmmm.... not really simple at all, is it.



da Rock -> RE: Hi-Start vs Winch - Area Needed ? ? (11/27/2012 2:18 PM)

If a highstart has too much rubber for the launch length, it's going to deliver poorer launches. If you don't stretch the rubber enough, you're not going to get the power it's capable of providing. And it's weight is going to penalize with no reward. There will be excess rubber that's not pulling it's own weight.... pun intended.... and more importantly, not providing power. and there's an even greater probability the line lenght is excessive as well, since line length is proportional to rubber.

In a limited launch length problem, it'd be nice to have an adjustable highstart. (BTW, winches are perfectly adjustable and suit the problem perfectly.) It's actually quite easy to make your own adjustable highstart. In fact, you can make doubly adjustable ones, but more on that later.

Lengths of rubber hooked together work perfectly. Even when the rubber is different strengths, but more on that later. Anyway.... if the OP's available 'runway' is too short for his present highstart, all he's gotta do is adjust the length of the rubber and line. If I were him, I'd do some design work first. I'd figure out how long I wanted the rubber and cord to be first. Don't know where to start on that? Measure what your present highstart has at rest and stretched, and work from those proportions compared to how much 'stretch' your site has in it.

Putting connectors into the highstart system works perfectly. Putting them into the rubber part works just as well. You wind up with an adjustable system that can be tuned to different flying sites.

It worked in the old days. It'll work now. But for the OP..... don't bother if you can pull your present highstart to the max at your present site. or if you don't want to bother getting the max out of your highstart. If the latter is the case, I'd advise you invite somebody with a winch over to fly and see what it does.



da Rock -> RE: Hi-Start vs Winch - Area Needed ? ? (11/27/2012 2:24 PM)

Can a winch outlaunch a highstart when laid out to the same length the highstart can be pulled to?

If the highstart can be pulled to it's max in the space available, launch altitudes will be similar. If the space available stops your pulling the highstart to it's max, the winch will win the altitude battle.



da Rock -> RE: Hi-Start vs Winch - Area Needed ? ? (11/27/2012 2:35 PM)

Now.... about how adjustable the hose can be.....

Lengths of hose of equal strength/stretch connected in line will work pretty much like a continuous length.

When different strengths of hose are connected, it gets a bit complicated. I've done it on purpose, however it turned up a little problem. I wanted a shock absorber section and figured a short length of softer hose would go it. The problem I expected was the strain on the lighter hose could be fatal to the lighter hose. So I used a safety line in the lighter hose. And tried it outside the lighter hose. Both worked.

It was fun for awhile, but turned out to be of almost no practical value. Back then we had unlimited flying sites. There really wasn't a big demand for adjusting to anything about the sites. The demand from any launching system was usually just the capability to pull the biggest glider that showed up that day.

But it was educational to screw around with the concept.



rcuname -> RE: Hi-Start vs Winch - Area Needed ? ? (11/27/2012 2:50 PM)

This whole thread about limited space is why I use a kinitec launch and coast on up just like a dlg glider would. My highstart consists of 45 foot of rubber and can use zero feet of string- just the rubber. My ships are 100" and I use relfex during the launch. So it looks like a dlg launch. When i was a newbie I never knew about this.


btw- using this youcan launch with a tailwind- crosswind or headwind..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-228VBiWIog






Art ARRO -> RE: Hi-Start vs Winch - Area Needed ? ? (12/8/2012 9:47 PM)

RCUNAME,
I am most interested in your kinitec launch system for sailplanes. What is the size of your launch rubber- OD and ID?  You mentioned a overall length of 45' and this would work for my field, which is a cow pasture, literally, with crops or fallow on all 4 sides.  My primary sailplanes are 2M wingspan and range from 24 to 40 oz weight.  Thanks in advance.

Art ARRO



aeajr -> RE: Hi-Start vs Winch - Area Needed ? ? (12/8/2012 10:56 PM)

What is shown in the video is called a zip start.  Not necessarily a device but a method.   instead of putting the hook near the CG and climbing to height you put it much more forward and get up speed, then try to turn that speed into altitude.  Very commonly used with slope gliders and flying wings.  

Natuarlly you can use a combination of methods to get your glider into the air.

Here is a similar method being used to get a ducted fan/jet into the air.



Art ARRO -> RE: Hi-Start vs Winch - Area Needed ? ? (12/12/2012 7:29 PM)

Ed,
Thanks for the clarification.  My next question was to be; how far forward will the launch hook need to be for a Kinetic or Zip launch method ?  Examples may be :at the nose, half/third way to the nose from the CG. etc. Any ballpark distance would help as a start point.
I still need any info on the size (OD and ID) of the rubber for a typical 2M sailplane.  One club member loaned me the rubber from an EDF launch system but it would have torn the wings off my Scooter 2M or Gentle Lady if used as a Zip Start. 
Thanks.

Art ARRO



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