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What is the best way to laterally balance your aircraft? - 11/20/2012 10:55 PM   
Pepperpete



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Status: offline 		Can someone tell me how they laterally balance thier jets? It's not something I have heavily considered doing before but now that I'm at this level I should really make sure the weight distribution is correct in all ways. With the jets being so large, what kind of method are people employing to get this done?

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RE: What is the best way to laterally balance your airc... - 11/21/2012 12:31 AM   
Dr Honda



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RE: What is the best way to laterally balance your airc... - 11/21/2012 12:38 AM   
rcand


 

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Status: offline 		The only way I have known is to suspend, use some string, from the nose and vertical fin. This can be difficult depending if there is someway to attach a string to the nose, then lift off the ground, see which wing drops, then add some lead in an area like a servo area until it is balanced.

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RE: What is the best way to laterally balance your airc... - 11/21/2012 1:18 AM   
erbroens



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Status: offline 		Guess that lateral balance is not so critical.. at least in some planes.

My Viperjet has one wing considerably heavier (about half pound) than other due to repairs and to my own surprise the trim hasn´t changed, nor the flight characteristics or stall behavior. I stalled the plane, looped , rolled, did the slowest landings possible and it flies and behaves as well as ever.

I flight tested it without checking the LB due to its size and weight, and now I doubt I will bother about it, even knowing that it is a fraction of a inch off.






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RE: What is the best way to laterally balance your airc... - 11/21/2012 3:23 AM   
JackD



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pepperpete

Can someone tell me how they laterally balance thier jets? It's not something I have heavily considered doing before but now that I'm at this level I should really make sure the weight distribution is correct in all ways. With the jets being so large, what kind of method are people employing to get this done?


You will know if you are unbalanced if when you are flying straight your ailerons are perfectly trimmed, but when you pull up (some G's), your plane turns to one side. That is usually an indicator of a heavier wing.
If that is the case, just weigh your wings, and put some lead on the lighter one inside the aileron servo box until you balance them, and fly it again. It is not totally perfect, but if it stops turning when you pull up, then you are close enough.

Balancing by holding from nose and tail does not work very well. Our wings are too short...

Hope this helps

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RE: What is the best way to laterally balance your airc... - 11/21/2012 6:30 AM   
DelGatoGrande



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dr Honda

never worried about it. If you built it symmetrical... then you can trim out any difference.



It has nothing to do with our building because the model might be heavyer one side from its production back to the manufacture.
You can NOT trim out lateral imbalance. For the simple reason that CG does NOT matter in high speeds.But it does in low speeds.
That means if you trim out a heavy side in 1/3 throttle cruising so you fly straight,at full speed your model will roll from the buildin trim.

The best flying jets i have flew are from builders/flyers that have F3* competition patern building experience.
The best jet pilots i have seen flying have F3* competition pattern trimming experience.

Unfortunately the two above are very rare to meet in our world/side of the hobby.


I will agree with what JackD wrote.
For start just to get close and dont have any surprises in a maiden,
,emty tanks from fuel, get a helper and place a finger under the model on the center line from nose and rear(somewhere it wont brake) .

if posible dont rest the model on the wheels ,suspension might interfere your test.
Rest it on a foam block and make sure wings are level.

Lift the model 3 or 4 inches up and feel witch wing drops.
Dont lift it slow but fast(not fast to risk dropping it) and note witch wing ends up high.
Repeat this 10 times i would say and every time check from where you touch the model just to try be as close to center line as possible.

Put some lead on the tip of the wing that ends up high until both wings rise the same.
Secure lead in the tip of the wing with epoxy.


Go fly .Full speed trim to fly straight. Fly slow(safely) and note any roll tendency.Add lead to the wing end high or remove lead if you have place before in the wing that ends low.
If you fly straight also in cruising speed you can leave it there or go further as JackD wrote .
You need G's . Fly downline 45degrees and pull up.Have a helper further away to note witch and if a wing end high.
>Dont pull G's your wings cant take. Dont pull too close to mother earth,she might reach and crash your plane. Don't try this if you are not comfortable flying it<

I got in a pdf my trimming/setting black art bible ,wrote by one of the F3 IMAC champions.
Dont know why i cant upload it
Anyone interesting of having it shoot me a pm so i can email it to you.

sorry for the bad english...my flying is better


p.s. 300gr of lead on one side aileron servo box of my big Hawk.Now rock solid flaps down cruising around
p.p.s. if you dont like extra weight try moving things on the one side to avoid making your model heavier

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< Message edited by DelGatoGrande -- 11/21/2012 7:02 AM >

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RE: What is the best way to laterally balance your airc... - 11/21/2012 11:55 AM   
Dr Honda



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quote:

ORIGINAL: DelGatoGrande

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dr Honda

never worried about it. If you built it symmetrical... then you can trim out any difference.



It has nothing to do with our building because the model might be heavyer one side from its production back to the manufacture.
You can NOT trim out lateral imbalance. For the simple reason that CG does NOT matter in high speeds.But it does in low speeds.
That means if you trim out a heavy side in 1/3 throttle cruising so you fly straight,at full speed your model will roll from the buildin trim.

The best flying jets i have flew are from builders/flyers that have F3* competition patern building experience.
The best jet pilots i have seen flying have F3* competition pattern trimming experience.

Unfortunately the two above are very rare to meet in our world/side of the hobby.


I will agree with what JackD wrote.
For start just to get close and dont have any surprises in a maiden,
,emty tanks from fuel, get a helper and place a finger under the model on the center line from nose and rear(somewhere it wont brake) .

if posible dont rest the model on the wheels ,suspension might interfere your test.
Rest it on a foam block and make sure wings are level.

Lift the model 3 or 4 inches up and feel witch wing drops.
Dont lift it slow but fast(not fast to risk dropping it) and note witch wing ends up high.
Repeat this 10 times i would say and every time check from where you touch the model just to try be as close to center line as possible.

Put some lead on the tip of the wing that ends up high until both wings rise the same.
Secure lead in the tip of the wing with epoxy.


Go fly .Full speed trim to fly straight. Fly slow(safely) and note any roll tendency.Add lead to the wing end high or remove lead if you have place before in the wing that ends low.
If you fly straight also in cruising speed you can leave it there or go further as JackD wrote .
You need G's . Fly downline 45degrees and pull up.Have a helper further away to note witch and if a wing end high.
>Dont pull G's your wings cant take. Dont pull too close to mother earth,she might reach and crash your plane. Don't try this if you are not comfortable flying it<

I got in a pdf my trimming/setting black art bible ,wrote by one of the F3 IMAC champions.
Dont know why i cant upload it
Anyone interesting of having it shoot me a pm so i can email it to you.

sorry for the bad english...my flying is better


p.s. 300gr of lead on one side aileron servo box of my big Hawk.Now rock solid flaps down cruising around
p.p.s. if you dont like extra weight try moving things on the one side to avoid making your model heavier



Your English is fine. BUT.... This is a hobby. It's not that critical. Go fly and have fun !! I'm not trying to win any contests, so I'll just trim it out. Just an FYI... I built a full scale KR2, and my butt was in the seat, and I didn't worry about lateral balance.


But, to the OP... if you need to balance it... put a scale under each wheel, and calculate the CG, and add weight to adjust. (that's how we do it on real ones)


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RE: What is the best way to laterally balance your airc... - 11/21/2012 4:26 PM   
Pepperpete



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Status: offline 		Thanks for all the answers guys.

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RE: What is the best way to laterally balance your airc... - 11/21/2012 9:36 PM   
JackD



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dr Honda



I'm not trying to win any contests, so I'll just trim it out.



Well, some of us are more competitive I guess...

At the end, it all depends on what you are flying. If you are flying a falcon or a shockjet, balancing won't make a difference, but if you are flying a Bandit or any other high performance precise jet, every little detail adds to the perfection of the model.

Nothing like having a plane work with you, not against you

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RE: What is the best way to laterally balance your airc... - 11/21/2012 10:00 PM   
gunradd



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Status: offline 		Jack nice smooth precise flying is no accident .

I like when the people at my Field ask me to fly their stuff because it does not fly right to them and I look at it and it has elevators at different angles and all kinds of trim. Takes a while and a few flights to get it decent and then they are like I guess I should have done that a long time ago. Using trim is a band aid and does not fix the problem because the plane will only fly right at a certain speed instead a whole flight regime. Some people will keep fighting their planes I guess.


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RE: What is the best way to laterally balance your airc... - 11/21/2012 10:54 PM   
rcand


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JackD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dr Honda



I'm not trying to win any contests, so I'll just trim it out.



Well, some of us are more competitive I guess...

At the end, it all depends on what you are flying. If you are flying a falcon or a shockjet, balancing won't make a difference, but if you are flying a Bandit or any other high performance precise jet, every little detail adds to the perfection of the model.

Nothing like having a plane work with you, not against you


Exactly right Jack. You know the laterally balancing is something BVM believes in too. After all, he is one of the experts in the field who has been doing it longer than the rest of us.

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RE: What is the best way to laterally balance your airc... - 11/21/2012 11:31 PM   
Dr Honda



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quote:

ORIGINAL: JackD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dr Honda



I'm not trying to win any contests, so I'll just trim it out.



Well, some of us are more competitive I guess...

At the end, it all depends on what you are flying. If you are flying a falcon or a shockjet, balancing won't make a difference, but if you are flying a Bandit or any other high performance precise jet, every little detail adds to the perfection of the model.

Nothing like having a plane work with you, not against you


I'm sure you are. I've been "playing" with RC aircraft for +30 years, and I've never once entered a competition.

Please don't take what I'm saying the wrong way... I'm really not a "Hack" builder. But generally, it's not needed. If I build something, and it's not right... I will go back and figure out what's wrong.



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RE: What is the best way to laterally balance your airc... - 11/22/2012 12:00 AM   
countilaw



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Status: offline 		Let's say you build your plane and you want to really enjoy flying it.     You have your center of gravity  set and it flys good.   Maybe it had a little   left roll on the first flight so you trimmed by lowering the right aileron and it flew level.  

Now you fly it inverted and it wants to roll  left again even more than it did flying right side up.       The heavy wing wants to drop,  so it you balance your wings,  set your ailerons straight,  the plane will fly level  regardless inverted or not.   

When doing a  stall turn,  the heavy wing will drop first and if you are trying to  turn the opposite direction,  the plane will flop over and not stall to the direction you want it to fall to. 

There are many reasons to balance your wings and once you do,  you will be surprised how well your plane flys and how much more enjoyable it.

Frank



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RE: What is the best way to laterally balance your airc... - 11/22/2012 12:23 AM   
Jack Diaz


 

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Status: offline 		Good thread.

One more hint:
when balancing the weight of the wings, try to add the necessary ballast as close as possible to the CG "of the wing". Aileron servo pocket is usually a good place.
This way you obtain a symmetrical gravity force distribution under G forces.

If the ballast is added at the wingtip, even though both wings may weight the same, one wing will have it's CG further out, thus creating a torque when pulling.

Jack

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RE: What is the best way to laterally balance your airc... - 11/22/2012 1:44 AM   
dbacque


 

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Status: offline 		First off, static balance the airplane for lateral balance as close as you can. But it's not accurate enough.

Countlaw gave some important info. You trim your new plane out and have it flying great. You have it trimmed to where straight and level passes from horizon to horizon are hands off. Okay, that's a good first step. Then you roll it inverted. Wait, don't touch the ailerons! Only hold the required down elevator for level flight, make a good long pass and observe what the airplane does. Did you see that the plane rolls a little to the right (or left). That means that the aircraft is not laterally balanced and the aileron trim is compensating for the imbalance.

So if the plane rolls to the right when inverted, that means that the left wing is heavier than the right. Add a chip of lead to the right wing. Of course if it rolls to the left, go the other way. Repeat the test after adding some weight. When you can trim for upright straight and level flight and then make inverted straight and level passes clear across the field, you've got the lateral balance accurate. This level of balance will make a huge difference in how the aircraft performs looping or inverted maneuvers.

Dave

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RE: What is the best way to laterally balance your airc... - 11/22/2012 2:40 AM   
Vettster


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pepperpete

It's not something I have heavily considered doing before but now that I'm at this level I should really make sure the weight distribution is correct in all ways.

Im glad you asked this question Glen. I too am going to step it up. With every plane that Ive ever built I always intend to LB, but never did.

Im getting tired of always having to add aileron input at the top of a loop when inverted.

Thanks Jack Diaz for mentioning to add the weight close to the CG of the wing(CG between wing root and tip) My first thoughts was to add it to the wing tip, but your comment makes sense.

Here's to a better balanced/flying model.

Trevor

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RE: What is the best way to laterally balance your airc... - 11/22/2012 4:48 AM   
erbroens



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Status: offline 		Absolutely, this is why Burt put the extra engine in the middle of the shorter wing.. LOL



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RE: What is the best way to laterally balance your airc... - 11/22/2012 6:31 AM   
DelGatoGrande



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jack Diaz

Good thread.

One more hint:
when balancing the weight of the wings, try to add the necessary ballast as close as possible to the CG ''of the wing''. Aileron servo pocket is usually a good place.
This way you obtain a symmetrical gravity force distribution under G forces.

If the ballast is added at the wingtip, even though both wings may weight the same, one wing will have it's CG further out, thus creating a torque when pulling.

Jack


i dont think i can agree on that.
..when i sed i added ballast to my aileron servo box was not for this reason, it was just easy to place it in there.
The best place to put ballast in my opinion is the tip.For the simple reason you will need less because of the distance!

IMHO we should not concentrate on the wings to weight the same.
We should see our models CG as one and not individual on ,wings , stabs fin and so on.


Result is that a wing can end up been heavier than the other.It doesn't matter.That can be to counter balance components torque side/placed in the fuselage!
Yes one wing will have deferent CG than the other but they dont fly alone.The CG of the model will be on the center line and there will be no torque pulling. Try it!


yes as BVM believes also in lateral balance ,bear in mind we fly to the three dimension world. And there is one dimension left.
How high or low your CG is when looking your model from the sides...nothing special but in low wing models place your components and specially your tanks as low as possible will make it more stable.


my 2c




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RE: What is the best way to laterally balance your airc... - 11/22/2012 4:03 PM   
Pepperpete



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Status: offline 		This has certainly turned into an interesting thread!

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RE: What is the best way to laterally balance your airc... - 11/22/2012 7:42 PM   
BaldEagel



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Status: online 		If its the wings that are out of balance the easiest way to get them right it to balance them as a pair, put the wing tube in and suspend it on a knife edge in the middle any imbalance will show up immediately. if you know anyone who fly's helos get them to lend you their balance beam, balance on rotating wings are very important.

Mike

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