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RE: NSRCA Proposed Bylaw Changes - 12/11/2012 11:20 AM

Ron Stahl

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As a former pattern pilot thinking about getting back into competition flying this made up my mind. Not to do it, the planes are ugly, the costs are high, the rewards are low and the politics are worse then ever. I'll pass.

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RE: NSRCA Proposed Bylaw Changes - 12/11/2012 1:25 PM

wattsup

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And just when I thought it was over..........As an added suggestion, 4 or 5 years ago I started using my NSRCA annual dues to join a second RC club in my area and have long since felt my money was much better spent. Like Ron Stahl above, I became weary of the politics, turmoil, lack of leadership and guidance, not to speak of the K-Factor! Let me also say, a former President of NSRCA, from the Huntsville, Ala area, was instrumental in helping me make my final decision to "bail-out"! Over the many years I was an NSRCA member, you would hear the same old tired rhetoric we are currently hearing from both of these candidates and once elected, would do little or nothing to improve our position or to encourage membership enrollment. Oh yeah, they ALL talk a good game but when it comes to substance, it's just not there ! Ron, I wish I could tell you it wasn't so but, I'm not one to gloss anything over or blow smoke! Regards, Everette

< Message edited by wattsup -- 12/11/2012 4:10 PM >

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RE: NSRCA Proposed Bylaw Changes - 12/12/2012 5:32 AM

grcourtney

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just u keith not because of having or not having just because it would be fun...

g

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RE: NSRCA Proposed Bylaw Changes - 12/12/2012 9:05 AM

protectedpilot

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PatternPilot

Silence from the candidates speaks volumes !

I'll speak up for the candidates, seeing that there is a pile up. Some here are quite vocal about the Board being 'business as usual' or 'not aligned with the membership'. I've seen quite a bit about a national poll, which I never saw until it was presented to the Board. Nor did said poll have any statistically relevant findings. BUT, the NSRCA conducts polls all the time; we call them 'elections'. Sometimes we get low double digit responses. Shame on us all for not even voting. Yet, we love to criticize.

To almost all of these I say, I've never seen you at the annual meeting in Muncie. These guys running have been faithful, contributing members of the Board. You think they aren't doing anything? Tell them on the NSRCA discussion thread, not the commercial threads. Tell them yourself; I've been criticized plenty of times behind my back, but never face to face. It is too easy to make yourself look like a long time ACTIVE member with a few keystrokes, but I've been at the Board meetings, the national meetings, K Factor editor and I haven't seen many others there. The real problem here is apathy and the all too easy access to tear down the few that HAVE tried to work within the system.

Don't tell me you quit pattern and now you deserve to be heard. Don't tell me that you quit the NSRCA ten years ago because of ONE person you didn't like and now your opinion should count. Don't tell me that although you've NEVER held office, that you should run the organization today. Tony F., you have credentials and have been there, you have valid points. We have an information distribution problem, and need to work on that before we change the fabric of the organization. The rapidly changing landscape of information distribution is a moving target, as any local newspaper, radio or TV station can easily attest. Actually finding ONE information path is nearly impossible, in the current day. It would help if our membership would actually use our official discussion thread instead of trolling here. Not that here is bad, but you don't criticize the football coach from the basketball court.

You want to hear from the candidates? Ask them from the NSRCA.US discussion list. If you are not a member, butt out. Sorry, no offense intended, but this is an internal matter for our members and I need to see you have some skin in the game before I'll consider the opinions. Some people just love to flame others on the Internet, but we have an organization to manage and that just does not help. I challenge everyone to be part of the solution instead of simply delighting in tearing others down. GET INVOLVED. Pull with us, not against us. We are doing the best we can. If you are looking for a savior to step up and grow pattern in the US while you lay back, doing nothing but flaming on the Internet, it ain't ever gonna happen. It is going to take teamwork. Single voices on the lists do not run organizations; it takes the ability and willingness to organize groups and work alongside others.

I'm proud of our candidates; they have demonstrated leadership abilities in the face of apathetic membership support, and have done so long enough to have established a track record. And we ARE working on the information highway problem; we just aren't getting much help.

Brian Clemmons
NSRCA District 6 VP

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RE: NSRCA Proposed Bylaw Changes - 12/12/2012 4:23 PM

TonyF

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Just a few of things.

If the NSRCA Email Discussion list in it's current form becomes mandatory for organization communication, you've just lost me as a member. There is way too much unimportant junk on that list to wade through to get to the nuggets. I've tried several time over the years and it is just too much for me. Even in my failed attempt as an NSRCA VP it was never said that subscription to that list was mandatory. So I haven't been on it and I find it upsetting that the BOD feels that you should belong to it to make you relevant.

The fact that many on the BOD are aware that current communication has been poor just makes me again wonder why the BOD is insisting on this Bylaws change right now? Is this some sort of legacy issue for outgoing officers? What is so important in the proposed changes that they have to be made right now? Why not address communication then in a more proper form conduct a Bylaws revision?

As a long time officer in many positions in my local club I had to get used to occasionally being criticized in what I could surmise as an unfair way. It took a little while to realize that even though I might feel the criticism arrived to me in a poor means, it may still be very valid. Most membership of any organization will remain very quiet until their issues become very large in their opinion. Even at that point, you will often not hear anything from them. They will just leave. Perhaps that is why NSRCA membership is declining?

Tony Frackowiak NSRCA #12

< Message edited by TonyF -- 12/12/2012 9:31 PM >

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RE: NSRCA Proposed Bylaw Changes - 12/12/2012 4:35 PM

PatternPilot

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Tony,

Well said...

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RE: NSRCA Proposed Bylaw Changes - 12/12/2012 10:34 PM

jgg215

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Tony,
The NSRCA Forum site referred to is only accessible through the NSRCA website and is not the discussion list that you seem to detest. It hasn't been used very much. However there is not, and has never been, a forum or list intended to be used for NSRCA official communications. I prefer to address NSRCA matters though the discussion list but it is my personal choice to post there and yours not to connect.
There have been some interesting discussions on the list, however.
John
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RE: NSRCA Proposed Bylaw Changes - 12/13/2012 4:59 AM

grcourtney

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why cant we go back to the good ole days and argue about snaps and spins... Yawn!!!

G

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RE: NSRCA Proposed Bylaw Changes - 12/13/2012 6:14 AM

protectedpilot

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No, Tony, the NSRCA discussion list is not mandatory; nor should it be. I just suggest that members use it first, before blasting the BoD in a public forum..... before ever giving the BoD the courtesy of any notice of dispute. And in all fairness, there is quite a bit of unimportant junk here also, just like any other forum. The BoD is not insisting upon a Bylaws change; we merely proposed it and asked the membership what they thought, in the form of a vote. We thought it would make things easier to manage the organization, and we had to work without much input from the members. Surely, with more input, we could have done better. And to that extent, we appreciate these comments. From our members.

It is less than fair to blame this BoD for membership decline; it was going on when you were a VP and I didn't blame you. And we do recognize the communications gap today, and are trying to bridge it. The problem is the sheer volume of informational sources, and the fact that people use so many. We only have control over our website and our newsletter, it is only fit that we concentrate on these. But please, let us know what other options we should consider.

I, too, have been an officer of my local club; have been president for a number of years. But our members handle things face to face, as a rule. It is the luxury of seeing one another face to face often that drives this. The NSRCA members do not see one another face to face as often, and occasionally we could use a bit more grace in our dealings with one another on the Internet. The only ones allowed to vote on local club matters, or to even speak to us about them, are local club members. How is this any different for the NSRCA? I put it to you, that we have a RESPONSIBILITY to only consider the input from actual members.

As one Alabama very-vocal-non-NSRCA member could tell you; I stand behind my club members. At a contest in Alabama, I defended a club member who was being trash talked unfairly behind his back. My comment, in response to the asked question "What do you think?" (after several minutes of derogatory talk about my fellow club member) was..... "I think he is my friend and I think that I've known you five minutes." Perhaps we in the NSRCA could treat each other in this manner. Maybe then we could grow again.

Brian Clemmons
District 6 VP
NSRCA

quote:

ORIGINAL: TonyF

Just a few of things.

If the NSRCA Email Discussion list in it's current form becomes mandatory for organization communication, you've just lost me as a member. There is way too much unimportant junk on that list to wade through to get to the nuggets. I've tried several time over the years and it is just too much for me. Even in my failed attempt as an NSRCA VP it was never said that subscription to that list was mandatory. So I haven't been on it and I find it upsetting that the BOD feels that you should belong to it to make you relevant.

The fact that many on the BOD are aware that current communication has been poor just makes me again wonder why the BOD is insisting on this Bylaws change right now? Is this some sort of legacy issue for outgoing officers? What is so important in the proposed changes that they have to be made right now? Why not address communication then in a more proper form conduct a Bylaws revision?

As a long time officer in many positions in my local club I had to get used to occasionally being criticized in what I could surmise as an unfair way. It took a little while to realize that even though I might feel the criticism arrived to me in a poor means, it may still be very valid. Most membership of any organization will remain very quiet until their issues become very large in their opinion. Even at that point, you will often not hear anything from them. They will just leave. Perhaps that is why NSRCA membership is declining?

Tony Frackowiak NSRCA #12

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RE: NSRCA Proposed Bylaw Changes - 12/13/2012 6:44 AM

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< Message edited by mdjohnson -- 12/13/2012 6:42 PM >

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RE: NSRCA Proposed Bylaw Changes - 12/13/2012 7:37 AM

TonyF

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Brian,

I voiced my concerns about this latest hub bub with both my District VP and the VP of the NSRCA long before posting here. And even then I didn't start anything, I just commented when I deemed appropriate. Also, can you keep track on the email discussion lists who are members and who are not? As far as I know, NSRCA membership is not required to subscribe and post to the email list. If you can't, then you are taking in non-member opinion all the time.

How can you blame a member for posting to this forum their concerns about the NSRCA's direction when the BOD itself doesn't use the K-Factor to communicate with the membership? I suggest to you that the lack of the BOD in communicating with their membership is entirely what initiated this thread in the first place. At least that is how it looks to me.

If the website and the K-Factor are what you can control, why is there still not a list of the Bylaws proposals and the reasoning behind each on the website or in the K-Factor?

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RE: NSRCA Proposed Bylaw Changes - 12/13/2012 9:04 AM

protectedpilot

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Fairly spoken, Tony. You, at least, have done so. I just get frustrated with all of the bystanders that only like to tear down. I wish more members would join you in making their feelings known. Board decisions are rarely unanimous, and more input would really make a difference. As you are well aware, it is usually a handful at best. When you contact your DVP and a BoD member, though, you've only talked to two out of a dozen members on the Board. It would be great if we could get more people engaged earlier on in the process. We do weigh who speaks on the list. But it is counterproductive to read here due to the large number of people that seem to actually WANT the NSRCA to fail. We get everything from 1970's pattern dropouts, who only want to return us to Daddy Rabbits with OS .60's, to extremists that want us to fly IMAC, to nutcases that are constantly getting banned from this list due to bad behavior. There just isn't a good balance of quality opinions among the torrent of flamers. As always, the best people usually just stand aside and let the louder and less tolerant minority blast us all, not wanting to get into it with their ilk.

Personally, pertaining to the Bylaws; I remember when the last major bylaws revision was done, primarily to make sure unilateral moves by one person could not be made. Now, due to the lack of member engagement, it is necessary to give more power to fewer people in order to get anything done. But when we don't agree with the few people in charge, how everybody squeals! It would not happen this way if more members took just a little of their time to become part of the process. The secret to getting a big job done is not one person doing it all, but in everybody doing their part. With a more engaged membership, the old bylaws were better. Now, not so much. I wish I had the franchise on wisdom as to which way to proceed; this was the best we could come up with and agree on.

But again, I do not include you in the group of flamers that do nothing. Noticing your NSRCA# is low, you have been engaged for quite some time. In fact, it was upper class pilots that founded the NSRCA. Today, though, Masters and FAI pilots are disproportionately represented in the NSRCA. It would be better if more pilots with your history, background and skill would step up again.

Brian

quote:

ORIGINAL: TonyF

Brian,

I voiced my concerns about this latest hub bub with both my District VP and the VP of the NSRCA long before posting here. And even then I didn't start anything, I just commented when I deemed appropriate. Also, can you keep track on the email discussion lists who are members and who are not? As far as I know, NSRCA membership is not required to subscribe and post to the email list. If you can't, then you are taking in non-member opinion all the time.

How can you blame a member for posting to this forum their concerns about the NSRCA's direction when the BOD itself doesn't use the K-Factor to communicate with the membership? I suggest to you that the lack of the BOD in communicating with their membership is entirely what initiated this thread in the first place. At least that is how it looks to me.

If the website and the K-Factor are what you can control, why is there still not a list of the Bylaws proposals and the reasoning behind each on the website or in the K-Factor?

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RE: NSRCA Proposed Bylaw Changes - 12/13/2012 9:08 AM

protectedpilot

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TonyF

If the website and the K-Factor are what you can control, why is there still not a list of the Bylaws proposals and the reasoning behind each on the website or in the K-Factor?

Sorry, forgot to address this direct question; I will make this suggestion to the Board immediately, that we do this again in a unilateral fashion. I can see where the process to date may have been murky.

Brian

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RE: NSRCA Proposed Bylaw Changes - 12/13/2012 1:18 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: grcourtney
just u keith not because of having or not having just because it would be fun...
g

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How about just the guys on my RCU "ignore" list?
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RE: NSRCA Proposed Bylaw Changes - 12/13/2012 6:10 PM

smcharg

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Concerning communication:

We try to get the information out to every one all the time. The problem with the Kfactor is that we write months ahead so by the time you see that information, it is not relevant. When we post information to the Discussion list, we copy/paste that information to Facebook and the majority of times, copy/paste it here as well. The Kfactor being so "behind the times" is typically the biggest problem. We are working to correct that as well. There are a few proposals on the table and the board has yet to decide which proposals to present to the public.

The only thing I disagree with Brian about is this: The NSRCA is the designated Special Interest Group for Precision Aerobatics to the AMA. Because of this, I believe we as your board must take everyone who flies and competes in pattern into consideration. Although we would all prefer folks to be members, we do have a duty to speak for all people.

As far as the website, it actually did have the proposed By-Law changes listed. I'm not speaking of the quality of them as they are just minutes but they are there. Every set of minutes that I've done is on the website and the same applies to soliciting nominations for officers. I send the meeting minutes to the board members and ask for corrections. Sometimes I get them, sometimes I do not. It's hard to proof your own work all the time and catch every mistake. None the less, the information was everywhere except the Kfactor which does need to be included but we need to fix delivery time as well.

Concerning "official" communication: Article IX - Section 2 discusses the "newsletter". This "newsletter" is the official communication according to how I read the By-Laws. This newsletter, however, does not have to be mailed to each member.

c. The communication and transport of the newsletter is not limited to current mail services and can also employ the use of electronic options as they may present themselves today and in the future.

The By-Laws also talk about the website and because of this, I take it meaning it is "official" as well. What I find interesting is that these minutes, especially the ones about the By-Laws, have been on the site the day after the BoD meeting July 22, 2012. Requests were made for nominations on the "official" website as well and we did not receive a single one. We made a mistake and I feel like crap that it didn't dawn on me personally. I don't like to make mistakes but they happen. The point here is, the information is out there and no one said "boo" until now. The point to listing it in as many places as possible is to reach as many folks as we can about feedback. If those minutes would have been read 5 months ago, someone could have pointed out at that time our mistake and it wouldn't have come to all of this bickering. It could have been nipped in the bud instead. We aren't perfect and we make mistakes. We did, however, come back and give our apologies and have rightfully fixed it.

< Message edited by smcharg -- 12/13/2012 9:18 PM >

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RE: NSRCA Proposed Bylaw Changes - 12/15/2012 2:16 PM

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As the moderator for this forum, I have deleted several posts in this thread. I will notify the Forum Manager, Ken, about the action I just took and will make some recommendations concerning the major violator of the rules of posting.

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RE: NSRCA Proposed Bylaw Changes - 12/15/2012 8:31 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: klhoard

.
Yeah, too bad the NSRCA couldn't have done this election electronically. That would have saved a bunch of hassle on everyone's part. . .
.

Like...

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RE: NSRCA Proposed Bylaw Changes - 12/15/2012 8:39 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: klhoard

quote:

ORIGINAL: grcourtney
just u keith not because of having or not having just because it would be fun...
g

.
How about just the guys on my RCU ''ignore'' list?
.

.

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RE: NSRCA Proposed Bylaw Changes - 12/16/2012 12:07 AM

grcourtney

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CGRetired

As the moderator for this forum, I have deleted several posts in this thread. I will notify the Forum Manager, Ken, about the action I just took and will make some recommendations concerning the major violator of the rules of posting.

CGRetired
Moderator.

ooops...

G

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RE: NSRCA Proposed Bylaw Changes - 12/16/2012 1:59 AM

klhoard

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CGRetired

As the moderator for this forum, I have deleted several posts in this thread. I will notify the Forum Manager, Ken, about the action I just took and will make some recommendations concerning the major violator of the rules of posting.

CGRetired
Moderator.

.
Go git 'em!!!!
.

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