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Will a OS 120 run well inverted? - 12/3/2012 7:42 PM   
Laurence-RCU


 

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Status: offline 		I am putting together my new Seagul Spacewalker. The plans show the engine installed inverted, however this then results in the center of the fuel tank being about 1 1/2" above the center of the carb.
The engine(as noted above) is a OS 120 Surpass and does not have a pump.
It has also been suggested to me that the engine being inverted might result in fuel having an adverse effect upon the glo plug, particularly at idle.
What are your thoughts on this?

Regards,
Laurence

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RE: Will a OS 120 run well inverted? - 12/3/2012 8:43 PM   
Gray Beard


 

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Status: offline 		The tanks center line should be a bit lower then the needle valve when inverted or you will get a siphoning effect and flooding. There are ways to get around this like clamping the main line before starting and filling but the little tricks are a pain to deal with. I'm guessing this is an ARF and they tend to not bother with these little things during the construction so you may want to get out the moto tool and get the tank where it belongs. The engine doesn't care if it's inverted or not but it doesn't like having a high mounted fuel tank.

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RE: Will a OS 120 run well inverted? - 12/3/2012 9:31 PM   
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Status: offline 		Gray Beard is ( of course ) correct, however I don't think the siphoning is a big problem.

It only affects pre-startup proceedures. Once the engine is running and PROPERLY tuned it behaves no differently than upright.

Once the engine is tuned all you have to do is

- Do not prime the engine before startup
- Use a filler system that does not push fuel into the carb as you fill.
- Keep the throttle fully closed anytime there is fuel in the tank and the engine is not being started.

You'll find that tuning at idle speed is a bit more critical when the engine is inverted, and that you'll need to be just a hair leaner to keep the plug from flooding out, but that's about it.

With the throttle closed or at the lowest point, you'll only get a drop or two a minute being siphoned in, so fuel up just before you intend to start the engine, and you'll be good. Priming will not be needed.

So if modification seems too difficult, don't bother.



< Message edited by opjose -- 12/3/2012 9:55 PM >

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RE: Will a OS 120 run well inverted? - 12/3/2012 10:19 PM   
Gray Beard


 

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Status: offline 		Jose is correct about the little problem but I have had the tank filled and by the time I got the glow plug attached and my starter in my hand the engine was flooded so I just take the time to set the tank up correctly. You can also mount the engine at an angle so it isn't exactly inverted and it also helps to keep the plug dry. Not just fuel but any left over oil in the cylinder when you get home and put the plane away. I have mounted a lot of them at 45 degrees or there about. A lot of guys will use hemostats to close off the main line and remove them just before start up. By tomorrow there will probably be a lot of posts debating your set up and Jose's thinking but I agree, you can get away with it but always roll the engine over before starting to make sure it isn't locked up or you can bend/break a crank with a starter and flooded engine. Seen that happen. If it does flood you just open the carb up and flip the plane over to get the fuel out. Pain in the butt but it works. I have seen a lot of guys starting there planes while upside down, that works too. Most of my engines are inverted but they are all pumpers for the most part. ARFs do have there problems and tank location is one we see all the time.

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RE: Will a OS 120 run well inverted? - 12/4/2012 1:58 AM   
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Status: offline 		This airplane has lived a hard life, Its a working airplane and earns its keep a glider tug I installed a new OS 120SE unpumped inverted and it never misses a beat. It is so reliable and effortless to operate tow after tow that it is a joy.

It is installed per the manual and as always you are setting yourself up for one headache after another if you fail to heed the manuals clear info on the important fuel tank/spraybar height relationship.

The Spacewalker is a very simple airplane there is no reason you cannot properly position the fuel tank. Get out the dremel, chainsaw or explosives just fix it, lower the fuel tank.

You will not be sorry

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Edit: corrected some of my horrible spelling.

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RE: Will a OS 120 run well inverted? - 12/4/2012 12:46 PM   
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Status: offline 		I will get the tank moved so that it is in the proper position relative to the carb.
Also, it has been suggested to me that using 30% fuel would help.
Any thoughts on that?

Laurence

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RE: Will a OS 120 run well inverted? - 12/4/2012 1:14 PM   
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Status: offline 		Laurence many four strokes will do fine with a bit higher nitro content than what we may ordinarily use in a similar sized two stroke however in the case of this specific engine I would question the need; application - high performance and with your airplane that is not what is needed. Elevation is the next major reason for using higher nitro in that engine and please forgive my ignorance of your state but I do not beleve high elevations are really applicable there.

Your engine is what I would refer to a tractor engine and not a nascar engine, That is in fact what it sounds like. Pretty much like an old Fordson Tractor or perhaps a John Deer Popper and The Fordson is what everyone calls my Tug.

So my recommendation with your airplane the Spacewalker and your engine OS 120SE fourstroke and your mission there is no need or point in using over 15% and 10 would be fine as well.

John

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RE: Will a OS 120 run well inverted? - 12/4/2012 1:57 PM   
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Status: offline 		laurence Here is what you may expect your engine to sound like and keep in mind this engine is at full throttle from takeoff till release, yours in the Spacewalker will when being well flown be throttled back to perhaps less than thirty perscent for most of the flight immediately after takeoff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwXN8Z2inyo&list=UUAbCtRJL2h_0PWTkXPcXnWA&index=23&feature=plcp

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RE: Will a OS 120 run well inverted? - 12/4/2012 5:21 PM   
mscic-RCU



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Status: offline 		Clarence Lee recommends not using a four stroke inverted due to the lack of bottom end lubrication. He goes on to state that if you are going to invert a four stroke, to mount it in a 45 degree angle with the exhaust valve down to aid in exhausting excess oil.

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RE: Will a OS 120 run well inverted? - 12/4/2012 8:58 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mscic-RCU

Clarence Lee recommends not using a four stroke inverted due to the lack of bottom end lubrication. He goes on to state that if you are going to invert a four stroke, to mount it in a 45 degree angle with the exhaust valve down to aid in exhausting excess oil.

Mr. Lee is a very wise man and knows of what he speaks. However we have been running them inverted sense they hit the market and I see that not ever changing.
Fuel and nitro content? All I run are OS and YS four strokes, usually inverted or on there side. My advanced instructor was strickly a YS guy and as I was learning the care and feeding of the YS engines I brought up the nitro thing to him. His big statement was high nitro is only used by people that can't tune an engine correctly or those that require every RPM they can get from an engine. High altitude was also brought up.
I run only one type of fuel and it is only 15% nitro. I have tested one YS 1.10 with as high as 40 % and as low as 5%. The engine ran fine with all of it but below 10% I needed to tune for it or the idle was pretty rough. 30% and higher I did get a few more RPMs but nothing earth shattering..
Laurence, in your case as a sport pilot the normal run of the mill 15% will work just fine and the engine is easy to tune and will run very well. Oil content on my fuel is usually 18% and I have never had a problem but when on sale I will buy the 20/20 glow fuel. Anything below 18% oil I always add two ounces of a Klotz blended oil just to be safe.
As a pattern pilot the higher nitros are best to use just so you can get a little more RPM and is helps safe guard against a flame out or dead stick.
I don't recall the last time I have had a dead stick though so I think I'm doing something right. My non pumped engines all have the tanks just a tad low, like maybe about 1/8 inch just because of that little problem we spoke of before. I just want trouble free days at the field and don't want to be dinking around to make sure I don't flood my engines while on the ground. Doing things correctly will solve any future problems so do as John said and set it up correctly and be done with it.
I still have an old OS 1.20 pumper that gets used once in a while, outstanding engine but the non pumped engines insure you will not have any weak diaphragm problems in the future. I have a couple of .91 without a pump and they are outstanding engines too, I just have to think about the tank in advance when building a plane.
Therre are no problems inverted after the engine is set up and tuned. Don't over think it. I have a great story about the first one I did with an inverted OS .70. The peanut gallery is nothing you should be listening to!

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RE: Will a OS 120 run well inverted? - 12/4/2012 9:33 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gray Beard

Mr. Lee is a very wise man and knows of what he speaks. However we have been running them inverted sense they hit the market and I see that not ever changing.



Yup he's almost the "last word" on RC engines. But like anyone else he is certainly NOT infallible.

I had to chuckle when I read his "Fuel stays in the back of the tank on downlines" statement.
Yes venerable Mr. Clarence Lee himself was perpetuating this ridiculous myth.

But then given what he DOES know about engines who can't forgive him a few mistakes?

O.S. reps have issued assurances that inverted engines do not suffer from lubrication problems.




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RE: Will a OS 120 run well inverted? - 12/5/2012 1:23 AM   
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Status: offline 		Funny, I used to think the fuel would stay at the back of the tank too, it just made since to me. Then one day here on RCU a thread showed up that was filmed in Germany with a stunt plane with a camera on the wing pointing directly at the exposed fuel tank. It proved two things, the new anti foaming agents works like a charm. The tank was hard mounted to the fuse just behind the engine. It had a split screen showing the plane doing the stunts and you could watch what the fuel was doing throughout the flight. It sure doesn't stay at the back of the tank. I'm surprised the engine doesn't starve out during all of my flights. Seems the clunk isn't in the fuel all that much during a flight.
I kept that address in my favorites to show friends the big myth of fuel behavior during flight, then one day it quit working. Wish it would show up again and be stuck here on a thread. Breaks up that old school thinking of foaming too. Go ahead and hard mount the tank too, I gave up ever packing them in foam since I saw that video.
As for oiling, the way a glow engines splashes the fuel around inside the engine I have never worried about it or given it a second thought. They really are perfected.

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RE: Will a OS 120 run well inverted? - 12/5/2012 7:12 AM   
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Status: offline 		Take any plane as far up as you can see, then put it into a WOT dive. It will run itself out of fuel before it is 1/2 way to the ground.
We dunn need no steenking onboard cameras to figure that one out.
Random dips of the fuel line into the fuel supply will tend to quickly satisfy the engine's demand, but fuel lines that are able to wander to the front of the tank tend to pinch themselves off.
Unless an engine reviewer has taken a few engines [of the same type] and ran them exclusively inverted, then compared the results with a few engines that were run upright..I do not understand how he can draw any conclusions..?


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RE: Will a OS 120 run well inverted? - 12/5/2012 5:22 PM   
opjose



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Status: offline 		Another thing that is often forgotten.

Because liquids are incompressable, but gasses are, when air makes it into the fuel line, it is QUICKLY pulled through the venturi.

That added with the windmilling effect in dives, and ideally pulling back on the throttle, helps keep the engine running well through downlines even when the clunk is exposed periodically.

However long slow downlines can still be problematic... I had that problem with my Funtana which lead to my involvement in the downline discussion.

A smaller tank ( less time in with the clunk exposed ) helped a lot, since I had a fairly large tank in it originally.

But yeah, the engines run surprisingly well even when the clunk is only dipped into the fuel periodically.



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RE: Will a OS 120 run well inverted? - 12/6/2012 8:14 AM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mscic-RCU

Clarence Lee recommends not using a four stroke inverted due to the lack of bottom end lubrication. He goes on to state that if you are going to invert a four stroke, to mount it in a 45 degree angle with the exhaust valve down to aid in exhausting excess oil.


The older Surpass series of OS engines has a crankcase recirculation system that keeps the crankcase lubricated. When trying to push oil into the case without opening the back, I found it both pushes and sucks through the nipple, so I guess circulation is maintained that way.

The newer Alpha series do not have external recirculation system. Dont know whether it has a internal system but when I put it into storage, I did put light machine oil in all areas including the case. Now I am going to take the engine out, should I not mount it inverted? (110A)

Ameyam

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RE: Will a OS 120 run well inverted? - 12/6/2012 5:55 PM   
opjose



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quote:

ORIGINAL: ameyam

The newer Alpha series do not have external recirculation system.



Correct, they don't need it because of oil circulation channels built into the engine.


quote:

ORIGINAL: ameyam

should I not mount it inverted? (110A)



Upright or inverted, it doesn't care and works just as well either way.

I run all of mine inverted and have done so for years.



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RE: Will a OS 120 run well inverted? - 12/6/2012 9:22 PM   
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Status: offline 		if an engine is not running well inverted. .fly inverted and all your problems go away

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RE: Will a OS 120 run well inverted? - 12/6/2012 9:38 PM   
Laurence-RCU


 

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Status: offline 		Thanks to all your replies I just successfully ran the OS 120 inverted in the Spacewalker.
It is a bit chilly here in northern Illinois but I was anxious to try it out.
There was no way I could lower the 20 oz tank that came with the plane far enough, so I went with a 16 oz that had a lower profile, lowered it as far as possible and that brought the center line about 1/4" below the center line of the carb.
The engine ran perfectly at full throttle and at idle. Although after idling for a minute or so it began to load up. I leaned the low idle as far as I dared but that did not solve the problem.
Would onboard glo help?

Laurence

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RE: Will a OS 120 run well inverted? - 12/6/2012 9:46 PM   
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Status: offline 		Good it sounds like you are very close with the tuning... here is how you go the final distance.

Start up the plane and run it to full throttle for 45 seconds or so to get the engine warm. Leave the glow plug ignitor in.

Bring the throttle back down until the plane is idling around 2400 RPM or so. Don't quite lower it all the way just close to it.

Now listen closely to the sound of the engine ( or use a tach ). Remove the glow plug.

The RPM's will drop rather quickly.

Lean the engine and repeatedly put the ignitor on and off until there is ALMOST no drop in RPM's once you remove the glow plug ignitor.

Sometimes I put it on and off as I'm adjusting the idle ( yes with the engine running ) listening for any variations.

Once you practically cannot tell the difference between having the ignitor on or off during idle, the LS needle is perfectly set. Now the engine will not load up.

You may have to tweak the high end a bit after you do this.



< Message edited by opjose -- 12/7/2012 10:28 PM >

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RE: Will a OS 120 run well inverted? - 12/7/2012 4:00 AM   
Gray Beard


 

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Status: offline 		I have been adjusting the low end like Jose mentioned for a while now and it works pretty good. I have found mine like to be just a little fatter on the low end though, not a bunch but some. I have never needed one of the on board glow drivers but I do make my own remote glow drivers on inverted engines just so I don't need to be fooling with the glow stick.

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RE: Will a OS 120 run well inverted? - 12/7/2012 6:49 AM   
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Status: offline 		Very good info regarding the adjustments on the 4 cycle engines, I learned something new today ( thats's after been rcing for over 25 years) I really love this hobby, so much to learn

I have an OS 91 Surpass and this engine is mounted inverted on my P-47, it is a joy to run and fly, I also have an OS 70 Surpass waiting to pull my 17 years old Cub also to be mounted inverted ( been refurbish) I ran it before, same thing troble free. I use the same fuel for both 2 and 4 cycles 10% with 20% oil, not a problem with the 4 cycles.

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RE: Will a OS 120 run well inverted? - 12/7/2012 1:34 PM   
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Status: online 		How do you make your remote glow driver Gene? Or maybe more to the point what do you make it from ? Thanks Ken

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RE: Will a OS 120 run well inverted? - 12/7/2012 7:35 PM   
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Status: offline 		Hi Ken, I have been making them for years using the male and female mono head phone jacks from radio shack then buying the head locks sold by Sullivan. They have just the head lock with a wire that comes out from the center. I have posted the how to a couple times here on RCU with photos over the years. The beauty of making them myself are, they don't fall apart like the kits that are sold, they are much lighter and you really have to look to see them. At one point I even posted the part numbers for making the complete system. I don't know if I still have the numbers or not? I did it with photos too a couple of times. I will look and see if I still have any of them on hand. Maybe I still have the photos in my other computer? You could try doing a search with glow driver as the key word and find my old post. It's a slick system and easy to do.
I have found that if I run the wires too long my glow stick doesn't have enough poop to pop so I made up a longer lead so I could use my old power panel that has more power.
I can make up 3 of them for the price of one of the store bought systems too.

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RE: Will a OS 120 run well inverted? - 12/7/2012 10:17 PM   
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Status: online 		Thanks Gene , I will do a search and see if I can find the pic's etc...Thats exataly what I am looking for to lite up the Gemini in my 1/4 BUSA Cub , (if I ever get there) I keep putting my Cubby build on the back burner and thats my favorite plane...I started it almost a year ago .. I have two 10 ft spitfires on the go rite now that I am going to have DLE30's in so I wont need them in there...

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RE: Will a OS 120 run well inverted? - 12/8/2012 12:29 AM   
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Status: offline 		I just did a valve job on a YS engine, I completely forgot to even look for the stuff for you. I'm lucky to have even remembered how to find the door out of the shop. Those two little spring keepers are a real thrill!!! Got it done though but my fingers really hurt! Engine has compression again and I have to charge the batteries in my starter, it wouldn't roll the engine over so I guess I did something right. Don't want to do that again any time soon!!

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