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The politics of jet flying - 12/4/2012 9:17 PM   
gunradd



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Status: offline 		I am a member of a club down here in Florida and a few weeks ago we had a Shokjet crash. The plane lost its elevator control and the turbine was shut off long before it hit the ground. Well the lipos for the receiver caught fire upon impact and started a fire. The guys went out to put the fire out but 3 of the 4 fire extinguishers where empty. The last one didn't have enough to get the fire out because it already spread because of the wind. By the time the Fire dept arrived it had gotten to a decent size. The fire dept sent out the rookies to battle the small brush fire since they needed experience and it was not threating anything. It became more of a controlled burn to get rid of the brush and training for the fire dept rookies. So it looked much worse then it was.

Well needless to say we already had many non turbine flying members very against us. So this was just ammo they could use to turn people against us. They right away started spreading rumors about us loosing the Field and turbines should be banned.

In the mean time the club officers held a meeting and purchased a gator tractor and 4 10gallon water extinguishers. Also replaced the 4 empty extinguishers. So now the Gator is on the flightline with the extinguishers ready to go and some rakes are also on the gator. So it went back to business as usual.

But the opposition persisted. This last week was our election for a new club president. Well a very outspoken anti turbine guy won. So I figured the best thing to do for me was to try and have a talk with him and show him how safe turbines where. So I went through the failsafe settings and how the turbine shuts down in a lockout. Showed him my power box dual receiver batts and all the other redundant things we have in our jets. Well he felt its all to complicated and flat out said that since only a few people fly them it wont impact many people if we just ban then altogether.

So it seems we have an uphill battle if we want to keep flying at our Field. The Board is still pro turbine so not sure if anything will happen but still its pretty stressfull. I only have one plane and its a turbine. The AMA really should step in and help us jet guys with stuff like this. I saw some great comments like the one from Bob in the other thread and would love for him to chime in.

Also on a side note these same guys didnt like my electric jets when I had them either. They said I fly to low,fast,high and far blah blah blah. I know every club has these guys but it sucks they can have the power to take something from us just because we are the minority.

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RE: The politics of jet flying - 12/4/2012 9:32 PM   
Ram-bro


 

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Status: offline 		if education doesnt help you help them, old father time will take them. t seems to me that it is usually the old timers that lead ths push, but I could be wrong. I left my club just because all my planes arent welcome out there.

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RE: The politics of jet flying - 12/4/2012 10:02 PM   
rhklenke



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From: Richmond, VA, USA
Status: online 		As I said in the other thread, this should be a case of the club potentially loosing its AMA charter for discriminating against a certain type of aircraft/flyer for no valid reason. The AMA is inclusive of many, many different types of model aviation activities and a club that benefits from its charter should not be able to arbitrarily ban any one of them.

If a group of guys wants to create a club for a specific type of activity from the start, that's one thing, but no group of people should be able to "take over" an existing club and then exclude a certain type of AMA sanctioned (i.e., allowed by AMA) activity without a justifiable reason.

Ask them if they are going to ban all electric airplanes with LiPos because of the fire danger - that's what really started the fire and I'll wager that they start more field fires than turbines...

I wonder if you could possibly get Keith Sievers to come down from Jacksonville and talk about turbine safety at a club meeting? The JPO has been very supportive of helping the AMA with the work of protecting model aviation from FAA intervention and perhaps hearing about how turbine safety and the waiver process works and how JPO has been helping AMA in the fight to keep ALL of us flying would change some minds...

Bob

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RE: The politics of jet flying - 12/4/2012 10:04 PM   
FenderBean



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Status: offline 		If the club falls under AMA can they ban a particular side of R/C? Also is this a public site the club leases or is it private? If its public the club alone cannot ban you from flying unless its in the contract with the city/county.
Sadly this is not just a problem with jets, but some clubs are just as bad about people flying helicopters.


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RE: The politics of jet flying - 12/4/2012 10:13 PM   
BaldEagel



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Status: offline 		I had a similar problem with the old guard at my club, I got over it by getting a buddy box system on my jets and let all that wanted to fly my Elan, we now have a pro jet club, just a suggestion that worked for me, also I got rid of my LiPo's in the jets and use A123's exclusively in them.

Mike

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RE: The politics of jet flying - 12/4/2012 10:23 PM   
Ron Stahl


 

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Status: offline 		You can't fix stupid! Once emotional decisions overrule logic the downward slide has begun that will devide a club, and possibly destroy it.

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RE: The politics of jet flying - 12/4/2012 10:52 PM   
Erik R



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Status: offline 		Bud,

Despite what others are saying,the club can ban what they want.Nature of the beast.You need to assess whether you have a chance to change their mind,and is it worth your effort. My buds and I decided it was an exercise in futility,and we started our own club,and in the last 6 years we have had 10 jet events.Fully 30% of our members are actual jet pilots.The energy you would have to expend to fight the nimrods,may be well spent on looking for a new venue/club.Please reach out to me if I can help in any way.Good luck,

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RE: The politics of jet flying - 12/4/2012 11:00 PM   
Eddie P



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Status: offline 		It's true. Either you have to have a hand in taking over as part of the club leadership (if you are in for the fight) or you have to move to a new club. This is what I had to do when my previous club became anti - jet model minded. I left without fan fare and fortunately there are two other clubs near by that are happy to have modelers like myself safely flying at their fields and adding to the bottom line with membership dues. A win-win deal for me. For them? I hear membership is less than stellar these days. Go figure.

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RE: The politics of jet flying - 12/4/2012 11:04 PM   
ira d


 

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Status: offline 		As I said in the other thread this is type of thing is going on everywhere and seems to be on the increase in the last couple of years, Because
of the speed and weight of some jets I can understand the need for specific turbine rules, However the same should apply to other large non
turbine models as well and also any other high performace models.

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RE: The politics of jet flying - 12/4/2012 11:19 PM   
Wclays


 

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Status: offline 		As you clearly stated the fire was started by the Lipos.

Banning turbines would also include any other aircraft that uses lipo's or really any battery technology, since they all can start a fire.

Trainers, Helicopters, Gliders, IMAAC aircraft, the list goes on,

But while you are at it you might point out the big gasses carry gasoline that is much more flammable than Kero.

It really is all about education of the masses, plus most clubs have to have a vote to pass things.

Good Luck

Clay


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RE: The politics of jet flying - 12/4/2012 11:47 PM   
joeflyer



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Status: offline 		First off, regardless of how the president feels, he can't ban turbines without putting it to a vote of the general membership.  If it comes to that you have some valid arguments assuming you can prove that the fire was started by the batteries.  Also it seems like the fire could have been been put out before it got too large if you had adequate fire extinguishers.  It sounds like your Safety Officer wasn't doing his job. 
 
Your board seems like a reasonable bunch of guys.  Hopefully things will quiet down soon.  Good luck.

< Message edited by joeflyer -- 12/5/2012 12:18 AM >

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RE: The politics of jet flying - 12/5/2012 12:14 AM   
gunradd



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Status: offline 		Joe you are 100% right. The fire would have never happened if the fire bottles where not empty. But that does not matter. Only 6 or 7 of us fly jets out of close to 200 members. All they needed was ammo to start getting the ball rolling. You are right it would need to be voted on but since only about 5% of us fly jets it would be hard to convince people. While things might end up ok like I hope I still think the AMA should do a better job to help out the minority groups.

Going back to flying EDFs is not an option for me. Just dont care to fly them anymore .Stuff with props dont interest me anymore. Not to mention the same crowd didn't like the speed of my EDFs and complained non stop about them also.

Also on a side note they made a notion the month before to ban IMAC planes because they dont like them also. That didn't go so well for them but the jet argument might be a different story.

Bottom line the club took all the right steps to prevent ANY fire after the incedent. The Field was not prepared to handle any kind of fire no matter what caused it. I hope others can learn from this also. It just takes one mess up and things can get very bad in a hurry.

The thing about Florida is everyone comes down here to retire. This means the members under the age of 40 are few and far between.

I also tried to teach them about jet fuel. Its very hard to get jet fuel to ignite unlike gas. If the turbine is shut down before the crash then its a low risk to a fire.

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RE: The politics of jet flying - 12/5/2012 12:15 AM   
Vettster


 

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Status: offline 		People fear what they dont understand. I was faced with a similar(though opposite) situation when I was the first person to fly Turbines at our club. Resistance was strong! but at ever opportunity I involved the bystanders to help me with this or that and I slowly educated them on all the safety's that are built into the plane and showed I was aware of their concerns, and that I would not put our club at risk. They now all love to watch me fly and run over to assist. I put it in stone by becoming the president..hint hint If you can make it thru this year...you know what you have to do.

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RE: The politics of jet flying - 12/5/2012 12:46 AM   
STKNRUD


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gunradd

Well needless to say we already had many non turbine flying members very against us. So this was just ammo they could use to turn people against us. They right away started spreading rumors about us loosing the Field and turbines should be banned.




It sounds like you have an issue with more than the president. Is there opposition to jets based on anything besides jealousy or envy? I see a lot of negativity based just on others inability to afford jets which you can find in just about any activity. But I have also seen some situations where the jet guys have brought on some resentment. Sometimes we unknowingly aggravate the situation by not showing interest in the other flyers or going the "extra mile" to make sure we aren't crowding out other flyers....it isn't much fun trying to concentrate on flying a small electric or even an IMAC plane with a jet making high-speed circuits at the same time. It only takes one "jet guy" not being really sensitive to get the other club members to become anti-jet.. Are all the jet guys at your club reaching out? Best suggestion I have is to gather the other jet flyers together and make sure they are all of the same mind and attitude and work with the individual board members to find out what you can do to restore some goodwill with the anti-jet guys. If that doesn't work, you've done all you can do.

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RE: The politics of jet flying - 12/5/2012 1:46 AM   
mr_matt



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quote:

ORIGINAL: It sounds like you have an issue with more than the president. Is there opposition to jets based on anything besides jealousy or envy? I see a lot of negativity based just on others inability to afford jets which you can find in just about any activity. But I have also seen some situations where the jet guys have brought on some resentment. Sometimes we unknowingly aggravate the situation by not showing interest in the other flyers or going the ''extra mile'' to make sure we aren't crowding out other flyers....it isn't much fun trying to concentrate on flying a small electric or even an IMAC plane with a jet making high-speed circuits at the same time. It only takes one ''jet guy'' not being really sensitive to get the other club members to become anti-jet.. Are all the jet guys at your club reaching out? Best suggestion I have is to gather the other jet flyers together and make sure they are all of the same mind and attitude and work with the individual board members to find out what you can do to restore some goodwill with the anti-jet guys. If that doesn't work, you've done all you can do.



This and the post above are spot on. You have to be open, inclusive, respectful and humble. There is no other way in my experience. And get on the board of your club. Better to work the inside, and 15-20% of members run the whole club so you need to be part of that group.

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RE: The politics of jet flying - 12/5/2012 2:08 AM   
essyou35


 

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Status: offline 		Its getting harder to and harder to find places to fly a jet. Airports ban us, clubs ban us. I can argue all day long how a 700 sized heli is more dangerous to a crowd than a turbine jet, it wont matter.

One glaring thing always amazes me, jet gusy spend $3-5k per jet, many of have multiples. Even in my area, were there are like 5 of us, if we all agreed to not buy a jet next year or 3 and pool our money we could build our own field with a nice runway and end all our problems for some time.

Now in Florida, where there are 100 or so, there is no excuse. Next year pledge to not buy a new jet, and instead pool your money, build a field, and ban EVERYTHING except turbines.

It seems so simple but seems no one ever wants to do anything except complain.

Joining together, setting a plan, even if a 5 year plan, this is how things get done.

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RE: The politics of jet flying - 12/5/2012 2:31 AM   
YellowAircraft



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Status: offline 		Hi,

I am the president of my flying club. Turbines are safe. It's sad to see this kind of thing, though. I used to belong to a club where the local gentry would show up in their overalls, then set up their trainers and bipes and just sit and talk all day. Never fly. They sure had a lot to say to the guys who did fly, though. They'd sit there and judge landings, loudly quote the rulebook and basically hassle anyone who was flying anything without two wings and a round cowl. Those guys kicked the jets out of that club one day so I left.

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RE: The politics of jet flying - 12/5/2012 2:31 AM   
flyinfool1



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Status: offline 		I am a member of two groups of outcasts, Helies and jets.
I am now the club prez, I fly some of anything that flys and is RC. i have gas, glow, turbine, electric, from the tiniest micro stuff to the giant scale.
Since I became prez the complainers realize that they have no ear to try to get rid of anything. Most of those same complainers that can get no traction have quit the club and gone to neighboring clubs. This is a good thing. Yes revenue is down but everyone's enjoyment is up.

Bottom line is If you don't like how things are, get involved, become an officer or at least be one of the people that ALWAYS shows up for work parties. Become someone that the club values to much to risk loosing.


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RE: The politics of jet flying - 12/5/2012 2:32 AM   
STKNRUD


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: essyou35

Its getting harder to and harder to find places to fly a jet. Airports ban us, clubs ban us. I can argue all day long how a 700 sized heli is more dangerous to a crowd than a turbine jet, it wont matter.

One glaring thing always amazes me, jet gusy spend $3-5k per jet, many of have multiples. Even in my area, were there are like 5 of us, if we all agreed to not buy a jet next year or 3 and pool our money we could build our own field with a nice runway and end all our problems for some time.

Now in Florida, where there are 100 or so, there is no excuse. Next year pledge to not buy a new jet, and instead pool your money, build a field, and ban EVERYTHING except turbines.

It seems so simple but seems no one ever wants to do anything except complain.

Joining together, setting a plan, even if a 5 year plan, this is how things get done.



I wish it were that easy. Maybe in Omaha it is easy to buy cheep land or cities with land they will lease to you. In most places it isn't the cost of a runway, it is the cost of finding enough land with no overflight problems of adjoining property or you need about 80 acres. Then there is the issue of trying to secure the improvements on the property with fencing, electric, etc. so that vandals don't destroy it. And then it has to be the right kind of property that doesn't require continual mowing to eliminate fire risks. What you end up describing in most communties is fairly valuable property that isn't cheep to acquire or the city/county has a better use for than a flying field for a dozen club members.



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RE: The politics of jet flying - 12/5/2012 2:34 AM   
essyou35


 

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Status: offline 		California excluded Anywhere that wont allow me to have more than 10 bullets in my gun has no chance of anything like this suceeding


quote:

ORIGINAL: STKNRUD


quote:

ORIGINAL: essyou35

Its getting harder to and harder to find places to fly a jet. Airports ban us, clubs ban us. I can argue all day long how a 700 sized heli is more dangerous to a crowd than a turbine jet, it wont matter.

One glaring thing always amazes me, jet gusy spend $3-5k per jet, many of have multiples. Even in my area, were there are like 5 of us, if we all agreed to not buy a jet next year or 3 and pool our money we could build our own field with a nice runway and end all our problems for some time.

Now in Florida, where there are 100 or so, there is no excuse. Next year pledge to not buy a new jet, and instead pool your money, build a field, and ban EVERYTHING except turbines.

It seems so simple but seems no one ever wants to do anything except complain.

Joining together, setting a plan, even if a 5 year plan, this is how things get done.



I wish it were that easy. Maybe in Omaha it is easy to buy cheep land or cities with land they will lease to you. In most places it isn't the cost of a runway, it is the cost of finding enough land with no overflight problems of adjoining property or you need about 80 acres. Then there is the issue of trying to secure the improvements on the property with fencing, electric, etc. so that vandals don't destroy it. And then it has to be the right kind of property that doesn't require continual mowing to eliminate fire risks. What you end up describing in most communties is fairly valuable property that isn't cheep to acquire or the city/county has a better use for than a flying field for a dozen club members.



quote:

land


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RE: The politics of jet flying - 12/5/2012 2:35 AM   
essyou35


 

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Status: offline 		Whao, hang on a second. This isnt just a Nebraska Problem? I thought I could move away from that crap. NO!!!!!


quote:

ORIGINAL: YellowAircraft

Hi,

I am the president of my flying club. Turbines are safe. It's sad to see this kind of thing, though. I used to belong to a club where the local gentry would show up in their overalls, then set up their trainers and bipes and just sit and talk all day. Never fly. They sure had a lot to say to the guys who did fly, though. They'd sit there and judge landings, loudly quote the rulebook and basically hassle anyone who was flying anything without two wings and a round cowl. Those guys kicked the jets out of that club one day so I left.



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RE: The politics of jet flying - 12/5/2012 2:37 AM   
invertmast


 

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Status: offline 		Ugh.. i hate to hear this, especially since I may be moving to the sarasota/bradenton area in the next few months..

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RE: The politics of jet flying - 12/5/2012 2:41 AM   
gunradd



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quote:

ORIGINAL: invertmast

Ugh.. i hate to hear this, especially since I may be moving to the sarasota/bradenton area in the next few months..


Thomas those guys at Sarasota are great. I had a great time flying down thier but its a 2 hour drive from my house. Also the flight box is pretty small. But still its a great field. Hope to fly with you after the move.

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RE: The politics of jet flying - 12/5/2012 3:02 AM   
impulse09



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Status: offline 		Maybe politics and meddling is the real hobby for some. Good luck anyways.

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RE: The politics of jet flying - 12/5/2012 3:30 AM   
TCHIEF


 

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Status: offline 		We had the same problem with Team Geritol at our club wanting to ban turbines It went to the point the point of ready to file a law suit because it was a public field and as far as the City of Jacksonville cared as long as we were insured with the AMA they didnt care If we started a fire from a crash They said let it burn Thats the reason we have a fire dept

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