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RE: New Evolution 10cc gas engine - 12/30/2012 6:01 PM   
Warbirdguy



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Status: offline 		Still, I would not want hot exhaust gasses pressurizing my gasoline fuel tank All it would take would be a hot piece of carbon or any hot metal shard left over from welding or manufacturing inside the muffler to set off the fuel vapor being forced back into the muffler after shut down to set off a mini explosion or a fire. I know the likelyhood of that ever happening would be 1 in a million, but, if everybody's elses luck is like mine......

I really think, after looking at the above pictures of the carbs that are being used, I dont think weight is that much of an issue.

Personally, I would just run as is from the box. Im sure they have done extensive R&D on it and it performs as it should. Is there room for improvements? Probably. But only a fraction of all who would use this engine would want to spend the time and money to do so.

WBG

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RE: New Evolution 10cc gas engine - 12/30/2012 11:41 PM   
earlwb


 

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Status: online 		It is not a big deal using muffler pressure on the fuel tank. The gas vapors need the oxygen in the air. Plus the air fuel ratio has to be almost exact before you can get ignition to occur. When you fill the tank up, it displaces the air and the fuel vapors have pushed out the air too. Then when the engine is running the exhaust gasses also have pushed out the air too. So the fuel tank is not going to ignite easily. Myth busters had several episodes on TV where they had no end of trouble getting their test tanks and rooms to explode.  The air fuel ratio had to be exact to get it to work. 

We have been using muffler pressure with model Diesel engines for ages and we have not had all that ether in the fuel ignite on us.

But there is some risk though. So one needs to be careful in any case. Some unlucky people have managed to set their glow engine planes on fire. So anything is possible.



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RE: New Evolution 10cc gas engine - 12/31/2012 12:05 AM   
Spridal


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: airborneSGT

Has anyone just flown the engine a lot to see how it will perform. I promise when I get one to fly it like I stole it. Same way I fly big planes :-) I dont take it easy on any plane.


I have about 18 tanks through mine and it appears to be doing well. The engine performs well and has been reliable with no dead sticks or hard starts. My only gripe is the black soot. I installed an exhaust extension and will see if that helps next time out. 



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RE: New Evolution 10cc gas engine - 12/31/2012 12:07 AM   
AJsToyz



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Status: offline 		The Horizon guys did say in an earlier post that it will start to clear up when it gets broken in.

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RE: New Evolution 10cc gas engine - 12/31/2012 12:33 AM   
cbarrett1981


 

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Status: offline 		Dave, I'm gonna put this in my trex 600, wish me luck, I have faith in it, been wanting a cheap gas option, nitro kills me, I just ordered from horizon, so hopefully will have it in soon, I put a thread on here about it if it works out, I gotta machine something for muffler to go right direction, but if it doesn't work out I'll use in an airplane.
Chris

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RE: New Evolution 10cc gas engine - 12/31/2012 1:25 AM   
Mikola


 

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ORIGINAL: earlwb

So the fuel tank is not going to ignite easily.


do you mean extremely hot exhaust gases may ignite the gas in the tank ?

Mike G.


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RE: New Evolution 10cc gas engine - 12/31/2012 1:28 AM   
FlatSpin


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Spridal


quote:

ORIGINAL: airborneSGT

Has anyone just flown the engine a lot to see how it will perform. I promise when I get one to fly it like I stole it. Same way I fly big planes :-) I dont take it easy on any plane.


I have about 18 tanks through mine and it appears to be doing well. The engine performs well and has been reliable with no dead sticks or hard starts. My only gripe is the black soot. I installed an exhaust extension and will see if that helps next time out. 



I got 4 more tanks thru it today and it only got better! It was about 27* and the winds started picking up again otherwise I am sure I would have gotten many more flights in. I had to lean the LS needle 1/16" and the idle & transition to WOT was rock solid. The black goo has decreased a lot and the red RTV that I put on the muffler body sealed out all of the leaks. I also tightened up the muffler mounting bolts after the 2d flight and after the 4th flight the were still tight. On a side note, BE SURE to lock the spark plug wire on by twisting it 1/8 turn, or you WILL get some funky radio interference. My throttle servo was going nuts and I shut it down trying to figure out what the heck is going on now!? After a little trouble shooting, I found the problem. I'll add that little step to my pre-flight checklist.

Dave


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RE: New Evolution 10cc gas engine - 12/31/2012 2:18 AM   
Ernie Misner



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Status: offline 		Regarding the black soot from the muffler, are you running dino or synthetic oil?

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RE: New Evolution 10cc gas engine - 12/31/2012 2:21 AM   
airraptor


 

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Status: offline 		I still dont understand why MFG's need to have a fuel pump o nthese smaller engines. We have been running them for so long with out on this size. I do like the fact that its a smaller carb though. I will buy one of these to fit on a DLE 20-30 size for test with a enlarged throat. The pressure tap is null because of the fuel pump.

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RE: New Evolution 10cc gas engine - 12/31/2012 2:54 AM   
w8ye



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Status: online 		The saito gasoline four strokes run black soot from the muffler even when running dino oil. But the breather emits black syrup.


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RE: New Evolution 10cc gas engine - 12/31/2012 3:22 AM   
FlatSpin


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ernie Misner

Regarding the black soot from the muffler, are you running dino or synthetic oil?

I'm using Pennzoil, 2-cycle air cooled oil. The black goo looks just like the pix in post #20 from Flyinwalenda's Meridian ARF build post. http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_11349144/tm.htm Although, the amount of the goo has considerably decreased after several tanks of gas through it.

Dave


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RE: New Evolution 10cc gas engine - 12/31/2012 3:41 AM   
vertical grimmace



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mikola


quote:

ORIGINAL: earlwb

So the fuel tank is not going to ignite easily.


do you mean extremely hot exhaust gases may ignite the gas in the tank ?

Mike G.


Oh great!......Here we go!


As far as pumps and big carbs go, it is not about the size of the carb to draw fuel, it is about the size of the venturi. Venturi sizes increased to the point that muffler pressure was required early on. If the venturi is capable of drawing the fuel, muffler pressure would not be required. Of course, there needs to be a balance to have the right amount of air entering the engine as well.

Funny, I think Horizon has done their homework, and I think we should at least assume they have. Of course we should run these engines stock without modifying them. I bet they have been optimized for user friendly operation. Something that can go away when super high performance is sought. This is a sport engine. So I am sure it was designed for this purpose.

As far as explosions go, I see a lot of white knuckled drivers as well. Yes, I am one of those that will fill the tank in my pickup truck when it is running. A risk I am willing to take when it is 10 degrees outside. I am not afraid to run muffler pressure to a tank full of gasoline.

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RE: New Evolution 10cc gas engine - 12/31/2012 4:35 AM   
earlwb


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mikola
quote:

ORIGINAL: earlwb
So the fuel tank is not going to ignite easily.

do you mean extremely hot exhaust gases may ignite the gas in the tank ?
Mike G.


it is very doubtful that the fuel tank will ignite. It is possible that if the air fuel ratio inside the fuel tank just happens to be an exact match. But it isn't the hot gasses as much as the flame front exiting the engine's exhaust. One possible scenario is a the classic "crash and burn" where raw gasoline spews out into or onto the hot muffler near its entrance at the engine's exhaust. But even that is really difficult to get to happen just right. if it was easy to do, numerous glow engine model airplanes in crashes would have had it happen already. Ditto for the model diesel engines in crashes too. All those gas engine powered planes aren't crashing and burning either.

Evolution and (Sanye) Magnum before they took it over has had several years of development work on this using muffler pressure and it there was a problem they would have surely seen it before now.



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RE: New Evolution 10cc gas engine - 12/31/2012 9:36 AM   
robc57


 

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Status: offline 		As far as hot anything going down the pressure line is concerned the actual mass of gas involved is very small and the velocity near zero - it's only moving in as fast as the fuel is moving out of the tank.  Over a tankfull the total volume will be no more than a couple of hundred cc's at low pressure.  There's no way it can carry any red hot fragments, by the time these would have traversed the pressure feed they would have cooled in any case.  Next up, the gas involved is spent exhaust with a small amount of unburnt oil.  We used to make motorbike petrol tanks safe to weld by hooking an exhaust up to them for 5 minutes.  Think carbon monoxide not anything oxygen rich.  


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RE: New Evolution 10cc gas engine - 12/31/2012 10:37 AM   
airborneSGT



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Status: offline 		Right now I am torn between putting this in a Great Planes Extra 300 (the performance ARF one) or the Great Planes Christen Eagle. The Katana 50 looks like a good choice also.

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RE: New Evolution 10cc gas engine - 12/31/2012 11:54 AM   
FlatSpin


 

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Status: offline 		I had the same dilemma, but I couldn't resist and I just purchased the Meridian 10cc ARF. It looks like a great airplane and it was designed around this power plant. Let us know which one you are getting and how it flies with the Evolution.

Dave

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RE: New Evolution 10cc gas engine - 12/31/2012 12:38 PM   
GallopingGhostler



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pete Bergstrom The black 'goo' will be reduced as the engine breaks in. I buy the Pre-moistened wipes that Clorox sells as a disinfectant for your kitchen or bath. It works well in cleaning the grime off your airplanes either gas or glow and so far I haven't found any finish it would damage. Very convenient and no need for a spray bottle at the field anymore. 

We made some notes in the engine manual regarding the muffler mounting bolts and the long bolt in the muffler tube. The muffler mounting bolts can be tightened down after the first flight and they will hold very well. The long muffler body bolt needs to be tightened after each flight for the first three times. After this it too will stay tight. Do this by loosening the lock nut, tighten the bolt from the front and then retighten the lock nut.

Pete, I think you folks have a winner. Many of the vintage aircraft designs used ignition engines. Not only for warbirds, I also see value of the engine for these older class of planes, too. It caught my attention, because I was considering purchasing a glow .60 engine, but shy'd a little because of their costly fuel economy. I gather basically we have the weight and power of something akin to a 4 cycle glow engine with the terrific fuel economy, and that in a modern, compact ignition design.

I'm watching my finances now as having recently retired, until the rest of my pensions kick in. This little jewel has certainly caught my attention.

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RE: New Evolution 10cc gas engine - 12/31/2012 12:48 PM   
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Status: offline 		When it finally get's to the UK I'm planning on testing mine in an old 46 size Black Horse Extra 300S that's currently 'adequately' powered by a Magnum 90 4 stroke.  It's very similar to the Great Planes one so I'm hoping the Evo will give a reasonable pattern type performance but I don't expect it to be in the same ballpark as the current Magnum overkill.
Running in in the air on a small prop is out of the question because of the club noise limits, I'm hoping a couple of tankfulls in the back garden on a 10*6 will loosen it up enough to run a larger, quieter prop that won't get me banned from the field.  Does anyone with the engine have access to a noise meter to get some readings on different props, maybe on something like a 12*6 or 12*7 and 13*6 APC?  Ideally at 7 metres (7 good paces) as that's the standard distance we use in the UK.
HH guys, have you done any comparative noise testing?


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RE: New Evolution 10cc gas engine - 12/31/2012 1:26 PM   
pmerritt


 

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Status: offline 		If this set up works, just think how incredible the 15cc version of this engine will be! Not to mention the 1.20 glows pretty much are fuel hogs! I bought this new 10cc and bet that Evolution and Horizon are well ahead of the concept to provide some reliable economy to our hobby. I'm kind of concerned about no ring though on the longevity.
I'm fortunate enough that a $25.00 / gallon jug of fuel doesn't interfere with the house payment but I don't fly that much so having to allow for a couple gallons each month if one flies quite often adds up. I can use my yard mower fuel on this puppy. Grass gets mowed, and my butt gets to go flying lol! Nice job Evolution!
HURRY UP WITH THE 15CC guys. You have us on pins and needles waiting.

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RE: New Evolution 10cc gas engine - 12/31/2012 2:04 PM   
GallopingGhostler



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Status: offline 		I imagine that the ABC construction of the engine would allow it life comparable to that of its nitro ABC counterparts. Also I imagine that the 1:20 oil to gas ratio is a safe, conservative value to ensure that the cylinder, piston & crank pins, and needle bearings receive adequate lubrication. Also I imagine just like with the glow engines, one ensure they don't run this engine overly lean to prevent overheating and lubrication problems. I certainly could live with the 1:20 oil ratio. 1 gallon gas storage containers are inexpensive, I'd just mark it so I don't get it mixed up with the gas for my 2 cycle yard tools.

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RE: New Evolution 10cc gas engine - 12/31/2012 2:27 PM   
RiverLarry


 

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Status: offline 		AHHHH  it takes some one from across the pond to tell it like it is  !!!!!

GOOD Job    on the tank  welding

I think it will look great on the front of my Large Quaker !!!   be a great place to brake it

In     KEEP up the good work from the  U K             R/L

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RE: New Evolution 10cc gas engine - 12/31/2012 2:38 PM   
flyinwalenda


 

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Status: online 		I'm running dino oil in mine for the initial break-in routine. The fuselage was a black  gooey mess after the first three tanks !
Even after the long ABC break-in time I think this engine with the stout 20:1 mix will act like a glow engine with similar amounts of exhaust residue albeit less than the initial break-in cycle. I doubt it will run as clean as the typical larger gasser engines. 






< Message edited by flyinwalenda -- 1/3/2013 11:47 PM >

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RE: New Evolution 10cc gas engine - 12/31/2012 3:03 PM   
GallopingGhostler



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quote:

ORIGINAL: flyinwalenda I think this engine with the stout 20:1 mix will act like a glow engine with similar amounts of exhaust residue albeit less than the initial break-in cycle. I doubt it will run as clean as the typical larger gasser engines.

Found the reason for the 1:20 oil/gas ratio on Page 10 of the manual: The bronze bearing at the bottom end of the conrod depends upon this lube ratio to operate properly. Personally I can live with that. I can also see this engine in applications for vintage control line aircraft. The $3/gallon (NM) versus $25/gallon glow certainly has merits.

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RE: New Evolution 10cc gas engine - 12/31/2012 3:14 PM   
AJsToyz



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Status: offline 		It has bearings, that was the unrevised manual.

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RE: New Evolution 10cc gas engine - 12/31/2012 3:21 PM   
AJsToyz



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ORIGINAL: Pete Bergstrom

There is a needle bearing on the bottom end of the rod and a bushing on the top end.  We are continuing to do oil content testing for wear and longevity but for now we are sticking with the 20:1 recommendation.  I expect we will be able to recommend either 25:1 or 32:1 in the future but as of right now we have no long term data to stand behind that.

Pete 


This should help.


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