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Cover your wings in tissue paper and dope! (old-school) - 12/8/2012 6:23 AM   
mooseflier


 

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Status: offline 		Just out of curiousity... for those of you that remember making U-controled planes, does anyone ever user the old method of wing covering... that tissue stuff and dope (glue + water)? I think it gives a nice, realistic look, thought I haven't used it on any of my RC planes, ever. Next time......


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RE: Cover your wings in tissue paper and dope! (old-sch... - 12/8/2012 9:53 AM   
bigtim


 

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Status: offline 		some guys at our club still do the silk and dope covering method,turns out nice and light

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RE: Cover your wings in tissue paper and dope! (old-sch... - 12/8/2012 3:16 PM   
Chad Veich



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Status: offline 		Silk and dope (or slight variations thereof) is still used by a very few of the top modellers in the world and, IMHO, is probably still one of the best ways to finish a model. It's lack of popularity these days is not because there are better ways but because there are faster/easier/cheaper ways. My .02 cents anyway.

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RE: Cover your wings in tissue paper and dope! (old-sch... - 12/8/2012 3:30 PM   
HighPlains


 

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Status: offline 		Many of the old kits used to include silkspan to cover the wings. That was often upgraded to silk on bigger/faster models. Tissue was used on smaller lighter models like rubber powered, or used as trim to dope onto the nearly finished models for color. This finishes took a lot more time to do, but the results can be fantastic. There is a lot of info in the vintage section you can find on how to go about it. I think I did my first tissue job 50 years ago as a clumbsy 8 year old. They got a lot better after three or four models (and years).

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RE: Cover your wings in tissue paper and dope! (old-sch... - 12/8/2012 4:18 PM   
ARUP


 

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RE: Cover your wings in tissue paper and dope! (old-sch... - 12/8/2012 7:14 PM   
Gray Beard


 

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Status: offline 		Silkspan is still used in control line and free flight. The finish you can get with it is fantastic. As to light weight? I have been known to use too much dope getting that nice glass like finish and produced some bricks. I have never used it on an RC plane though, even electrics. I find the light weight coverings we have these days for electrics much easier to work with and less brittle if you land in the weeds.

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RE: Cover your wings in tissue paper and dope! (old-sch... - 12/8/2012 8:51 PM   
Zor



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quote:

ORIGINAL: ARUP

Ringmasters! 1/2A 'Baby' RM and RM 'Junior' for this year's Ringmaster Fly-A-Thon. Shameless plug for 'brotherhoodofthering.info'. When I get my 1/12 'Kate' finished it will get a silkspan and dope finish because that is the lightest finish that can be had.


This thread is bringing back nice old memories.
I have a Ringmaster from "The Good Old Times" that has a wing stripped of covering but ready to recover.

I did good days when I was flyng in circles  .

Zor


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RE: Cover your wings in tissue paper and dope! (old-sch... - 12/8/2012 9:04 PM   
Boomerang1



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Status: offline 		My first radio models were tissue & dope, mainly because they were converted
free flight models.

My tissue covering jobs took a big leap forward when a friend suggested I wet
the tissue before covering.

Tissue's lack of durability & moving to bigger models is why I moved on to
fabric such as Sig Koverall. I have not tried the tissue substitutes with the look
of tissue but greater puncture resistance but from what I've seen they look good.

John.

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RE: Cover your wings in tissue paper and dope! (old-sch... - 12/9/2012 12:09 AM   
Gray Beard


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Boomerang1

My first radio models were tissue & dope, mainly because they were converted
free flight models.

My tissue covering jobs took a big leap forward when a friend suggested I wet
the tissue before covering.

Tissue's lack of durability & moving to bigger models is why I moved on to
fabric such as Sig Koverall. I have not tried the tissue substitutes with the look
of tissue but greater puncture resistance but from what I've seen they look good.

John.

I was taught to put the silkspan on wet then discovered I got a better job when it was dry then shrunk. Both ways work very well though. I just didn't have to hurry like when it was wet.
As a kid in the 50s I was flying the FireBaby 1/2A and then one of the big kids crashed his RingMaster and gave it to me. After repairing it, from then on I was building my own planes and boats and have never quit. Funny how many of us started with the RingMaster and Tomahawk as our first kits. The FireBaby was the first ARF I had ever seen.
Only covering I had ever seen was silkspan in those days. I didn't see anyone use silk until the early 60 and then Mono hit the market.

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RE: Cover your wings in tissue paper and dope! (old-sch... - 12/9/2012 12:51 AM   
soarrich



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Status: offline 		I just looked at my plane I silk & dope last year. It looks better now than it did then, the few wrinkles it had are gone.

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RE: Cover your wings in tissue paper and dope! (old-sch... - 12/9/2012 1:56 AM   
Zor



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quote:

ORIGINAL: soarrich

I just looked at my plane I silk & dope last year. It looks better now than it did then, the few wrinkles it had are gone.


Another example that dope keeps shrinking and thightening the fabric for decades.

It also gains lustre with weeks and months going on.

Zor



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RE: Cover your wings in tissue paper and dope! (old-sch... - 12/9/2012 2:15 AM   
Gray Beard


 

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Status: offline 		Rich, good looking job, it looks like it was sheeted and glassed, it's really smooth.
Zor, is that why the silk or silk span will crack over time? Like decades? I have never given it any thought.

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RE: Cover your wings in tissue paper and dope! (old-sch... - 12/9/2012 2:40 AM   
LargeScale88



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Status: offline 		I look at it this way:

Kits are a thing of the past, ARFs are much faster and easier to put together

Old silk and dope is a thing of the past, plastic iron on covering is easier and quicker

See the trend?

Jason

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RE: Cover your wings in tissue paper and dope! (old-sch... - 12/9/2012 2:47 AM   
mooseflier


 

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Status: offline 		Wow, this is awes ome... didn't really think many people would even remember this, much less apply it! ARUP & soarrich: awesome!!! I'm working on a bipe with a ys110 right now.... I think I might dope it for the neato factor! How cool would it be to put some LEDs inside of the wings that are doped... they'd glow! Not that you couldn't do it with monokote.

Edit: btw, last model that I remenber doping was a Little Satan... u-controlled... a wing with a giant elevator... gotta love it!



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RE: Cover your wings in tissue paper and dope! (old-sch... - 12/9/2012 3:10 AM   
mooseflier


 

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Status: offline 		grey beard::  "As to light weight? I have been known to use too much dope getting that nice glass like finish and produced some brickrubber powered, "

I find that hilarious! Maybe it's just me, but it sounds like my use of CA.

You guys talk of "free flight'.. I completely forgot about those old rubber band builds! That's what I want for Xmas! I cab almost smell the old hobby store my dad brought me to!


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RE: Cover your wings in tissue paper and dope! (old-sch... - 12/9/2012 3:12 AM   
iron eagel



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Status: offline 		I still use tissue and dope for some small planes rubber FF or electrics. For larger ones I use tissue and dope or fiber glass over sheathing pr old fashion silk and dope as well.
We have a free flight guy in our club that does some fantastic work in tissue. And his silk covered stuff is museum quality work he has a Pits that is unbelievable I am farly sue it was an award winner at the Nats for CL scale.
One variation I am going to try is after the tissue is stretched and doped with the primer try applying a layer of carbon fiber veil and finish it with dope afterward. I think this will render a fairly robust skin and still manage to keep the weigh far lower than a plastic finish. As a matter of fact a speed plane I am building is going to get it's finish done with tissue and dope over balsa sheathing it should add a bit of strength and keep the weight to a bare minimum. I have already done a aerobatic airplane that is sheathed with a carbon fiber veil and dope finish it is very light and strong.

But what do I know I still have one plane covered in silk...
I have never done a plane that I covered with film that I have liked the way it came out.

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RE: Cover your wings in tissue paper and dope! (old-sch... - 12/9/2012 4:15 AM   
SRQFlyer



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Status: offline 		Here's a Giant Aeromaster covered in silkspan and dope!
http://www.rcuniverse.com/market/item.cfm?itemID=886988
This was built about 10-12 years ago. Silkspan is not very forgiving on a plane this big!
Jim

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RE: Cover your wings in tissue paper and dope! (old-sch... - 12/9/2012 4:22 AM   
Zor



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gray Beard

Rich, good looking job, it looks like it was sheeted and glassed, it's really smooth.
Zor, is that why the silk or silk span will crack over time? Like decades? I have never given it any thought.


Gray Beard,

I have some models here that were built in the late 1950s and early 1960s and there is no cracks on them at all.

I am not saying that some models have not developed cracks.There would be some reason(s).

Possible reasons I can think of could be _ _ _ 
1 Too much shrinking using heat during covering. As dope will keep on tightening the fabric in time the stresses could make the fabric to give up; to stretch too much from places of attachment to the structure.
2 Improper use of plasticiser.
3 Storage at very cold temperatures for long periods like all winter long in a garage going sometime to minus 20 C (minus 4 F) at night and up to plus 30 C (86 F) in a following sunny day in a closed garage.
4 Possiility of accidental pressure (impacts) in opened areas (like between ribs) in which the fabic does not tear but tiny cracks could be produced in the dope layer particularly if not plasticised correctly.

To my knowledge, cured (dried) dope is a cellulose acetate or nitrate and very similar to celluloid.
I am not saying it is identical and I am not saying it is celluloid; just similar.

My old Berry Brothers dope was labelled "aceto butyrate dope" on the containers.

I can repeat pictures already posted a long time ago of some of these finish if necessary.

Zor




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RE: Cover your wings in tissue paper and dope! (old-sch... - 12/9/2012 6:50 AM   
oian


 

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Status: offline 		As far as continued shrinkage is concerned; There are two basic types of "dope", Nitrate stops shrinking when it dries, Butyrate continues to shrink for quite some time which can lead to warping problems on light structures. Nitrate is "fuel proof" for diesel and alcohol fuel without nitromethane, Butyrate will withstand some nitromethane in the fuel (15-25%). Most fuel exhaust residue does not contain a lot of nitromethane, but raw fuel spills can cause problems. High nitro will cause problems even with Butyrate and will require some type of "real" fuel proofing. Most nitromethane produced is used as a solvent of some sort which is why it so easily attacks finishes, as a matter of fact some of the CA de-bonders are actually nitromethane, check the label.

Butyrate can be used over Nitrate as a "fuel proofing", but don't try to put Nitrate over Butyrate, it will just make a real mess (you also want to use the appropriate thinner for each type of dope unless you like "dope jelly!. Non-shrinking dope can also be purchased. Aircraft Spruce and Specialty (a supplier of full size aircraft stuff) sells all types of dope and thinners at prices that are usually less than the LHS. Some aircraft supply stores at small airports may also carry dope and avoid the hazerdous material shipping fees.

A good way to cover with actual " jap" tissue is to cover the model with mylar (1/4 mil and up in thickness), heat shrink the mylar then dope wet tissue over the mylar. this produces a finish that looks identical to a "real tissue finish" but will be much lighter and tougher than tissue alone as it requires a lot less dope to fill the tissue and the mylar gives it strength.

Another covering that looks like silkspan is "Polyspan" which is actually a European polyester dress lining material that is about the same weight and thickness as silkspan. It is very easy to apply and is very tough, it's aplied dry (It doesn't shrink with water) and shrunk with heat then doped like regular silkspan (as it does not require dope to shrink it, other finishes (laquer?) may work just as well as dope). The only problem is it only comes in white, but can be colored to look like colored tissue by applying a tinted coat of highly thinned dope with dye, solvent based "fade proof ink" or laquer tinting material or just painted.

John

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RE: Cover your wings in tissue paper and dope! (old-sch... - 12/9/2012 8:55 AM   
MTK



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quote:

ORIGINAL: oian

As far as continued shrinkage is concerned; There are two basic types of "dope", Nitrate stops shrinking when it dries, Butyrate continues to shrink for quite some time which can lead to warping problems on light structures. Nitrate is "fuel proof" for diesel and alcohol fuel without nitromethane, Butyrate will withstand some nitromethane in the fuel (15-25%). Most fuel exhaust residue does not contain a lot of nitromethane, but raw fuel spills can cause problems. High nitro will cause problems even with Butyrate and will require some type of "real" fuel proofing. Most nitromethane produced is used as a solvent of some sort which is why it so easily attacks finishes, as a matter of fact some of the CA de-bonders are actually nitromethane, check the label.

Butyrate can be used over Nitrate as a "fuel proofing", but don't try to put Nitrate over Butyrate, it will just make a real mess (you also want to use the appropriate thinner for each type of dope unless you like "dope jelly!. Non-shrinking dope can also be purchased. Aircraft Spruce and Specialty (a supplier of full size aircraft stuff) sells all types of dope and thinners at prices that are usually less than the LHS. Some aircraft supply stores at small airports may also carry dope and avoid the hazerdous material shipping fees.

A good way to cover with actual " jap" tissue is to cover the model with mylar (1/4 mil and up in thickness), heat shrink the mylar then dope wet tissue over the mylar. this produces a finish that looks identical to a "real tissue finish" but will be much lighter and tougher than tissue alone as it requires a lot less dope to fill the tissue and the mylar gives it strength.

Another covering that looks like silkspan is "Polyspan" which is actually a European polyester dress lining material that is about the same weight and thickness as silkspan. It is very easy to apply and is very tough, it's aplied dry (It doesn't shrink with water) and shrunk with heat then doped like regular silkspan (as it does not require dope to shrink it, other finishes (laquer?) may work just as well as dope). The only problem is it only comes in white, but can be colored to look like colored tissue by applying a tinted coat of highly thinned dope with dye, solvent based "fade proof ink" or laquer tinting material or just painted.

John


Been using silkspan and dope for many years for RC Pattern model wing and stabs. Lighter and much more beautiful finish than plastic wrinkle wrap but less durable too. Then again, my wings are usually stored in their own cases.

As far as silkspan goes there are several weights or grades. Used to use medium grade up until fairly recently. Technique of application was straight forward and the effort moderate to get a first class, rubbed out finish. I have photos of my stuff in the Pattern Forum

Recently I finally figured out how to apply light silkspan onto fully sheeted surfaces that works rather well. You can use the same technique for medium and heavy grades but it isn't necessary since these are far easier to work with. Light silkspan rips apart just sitting there it seems. Forget about applying it wet; it seeks itself when wet and glues itself with water alone it seems. But it kinda doesn't like being applied dry either since it wrinkles as the fibers relax and expand from the dope

Well, what I determined is that it can be spritzed with a fine mist of water and that's enough to loosen and relax the silkspan but not enough to stick to itself. Wet steam would probably work too. I then lay  it to a prepped surface and dope only the perimeter after smoothing reasonably carefully. Then I let it dry which is does in about 10 minutes give or take, to a look that's like the skin on a grape. Only then do I fully bed it with nitrate. No wrinkles of any kind when done this way.

Light silkspan weighs less than half what medium weighs and fills in a couple coats as opposed to 6-8 for medium. It covers all wood grain great but don't expect this finish to be terribly durable. It isn't epoxied glass. BUT, if you are like me, really fussy about bedding and finishing, then you'll take care of the surfaces. My cases use the original foam husks and are lined with felt from Wal Mart. Best way to store well done wings without hanger rash. Added weight for the covering is less than 1/2 ounce per sq yard, primed and ready for paint



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RE: Cover your wings in tissue paper and dope! (old-sch... - 12/9/2012 1:29 PM   
oldfartpilot


 

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Status: offline 		Talk of tissue paper and silk span and dope bring back fond memories of model building that began in the mid-50's, rubber band powered.  A P-40 Warhawk was one of my first and a Piper Cub was my last tissue paper models.  At about the same time, I built a u-control Stearman PT-17 and covered it in silk span, powered it with a Torpedo .29 or.35 (green head).  Now it's ARFs, hands not so steady no eyesight so keen !


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RE: Cover your wings in tissue paper and dope! (old-sch... - 12/9/2012 2:02 PM   
ARUP


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeScale88

I look at it this way:

Kits are a thing of the past, ARFs are much faster and easier to put together

Old silk and dope is a thing of the past, plastic iron on covering is easier and quicker

See the trend?

Jason

I'm glad I'm not part of THAT trend! It might be 'easier and quicker' but looks like Hades, too! Thank you very much!
Nice looking airplane Soarrich.

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RE: Cover your wings in tissue paper and dope! (old-sch... - 12/9/2012 3:25 PM   
All Day Dan


 

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Status: offline 		Moose, I built my first Bootstraps almost 60 years ago and relived my youth just now with another one. Of course it had to be silk and dope. Dan.

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RE: Cover your wings in tissue paper and dope! (old-sch... - 12/9/2012 6:18 PM   
Chad Veich



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Status: offline 		Sepp Uiberlacher's awesome scratch built Hawker Tempest shown below won top static and best craftsmanship at Top Gun in 1995 and as I recall was finished with some variation of the silk and dope process. Only 21 pounds on an 82 inch span and fully detailed warbird which I think speaks to the weight advantage which may be had with this type of finish.



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RE: Cover your wings in tissue paper and dope! (old-sch... - 12/9/2012 7:24 PM   
iron eagel



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Status: offline 		Chad your right that is a testament to the weight advantage of a silk and dope finish. Yes, it's a lot of work, but I think the results are well worth the effort.

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