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why are F15 and F22 recomended as a good "first" scale ... - 12/8/2012 7:31 AM   
rcfun2005


 

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Status: offline 		Hi ,

i have seen post indicating these jets would make good "first" scale jet.

one post indicated the F15 has a wing design which can fly very slow and high speed. so it can slow down for landing .

so is this true of f22 design also ? not sure what design feature of F22 would make it a good first scale jet ?

thanks for any comments !



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RE: why are F15 and F22 recomended as a good - 12/8/2012 8:56 AM   
YellowAircraft



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Status: online 		Hi,

I find that these types of recommendations are too generic. "An F-18 is a good..." is way too general if you're not going to specify the design. The premise assumes that they're all designed the same way, with the same airfoils and such. To respond to your question, though, the planes you mentioned tend to have a lot of lifting body to augment their wings. This makes them good, stable fliers and slow landers.

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RE: why are F15 and F22 recomended as a good - 12/8/2012 10:37 AM   
rcfun2005


 

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"the planes you mentioned tend to have a lot of lifting body to augment their wings. This makes them good, stable fliers and slow landers"

thanks for info ... i did not hear that before.


so for "stable flier and slow lander" have you seen one of the F15 or F22 design seem better ?


thanks again !

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RE: why are F15 and F22 recomended as a good - 12/8/2012 11:52 AM   
Dr Honda



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Status: offline 		F-15 for a first scale jet?? Really?? Every one I've seen looked like a handful at landing. F-16's of any size seem to land better.

Anyway... what Shaun was saying is true. It's too generic of a statement. Different models, will fly different. Find what kit you may want to buy, (ie, a Jet Legends F-15) and then look for some vids on it flying. Or better yet... make a post here, and ask who has one, and how it handles.


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RE: why are F15 and F22 recomended as a good - 12/8/2012 2:23 PM   
erbroens



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Status: offline 		I have flown many scale jets and the F-15 is one of the easiest and sweetest to fly. In my opinion this are some of reasons why this happen:



1) The full size one hasn´t moving leading edge slats, so the wing in the model works as well at slow speed and high AoA due to its undercamber at the wingtips.

2) The plane has a low wing loading, even if its wings are tiny. The fuselage works as a wing. so it can takeoff and land slowly.

3) The plane has almost a high wing configuration, so if one wing stalls before other (unlikely, due to reason 1) the plane doesn´t want to rotate to it´s sides, due to the CG is below the wings. So it basically the plane can´t "tip stall" like is commonly said.

4) The airframe is draggy, so after chopping throttle the airplane quickly decelerates making turbine landings easier for the rookie pilots. This also allows to the pilot doesn´t worry at all with throttle management, presuming it doesn´t overpowered the airframe.

5) It can be flown very well with just two servos in the elevons.. so it´s dead easy to do a good flying setup.

6) The main landing gear position is perfect for easy rotations and wheelie landings in relation to the CG .. because the full size was one of the last fighters wich where designed without electronic stability augmentation. This doesn´t happen in the F-16, F-18, F-22, F-35, etc.



btw, I love mine even if I can´t see it most time of the flight, LOL.

Enrique


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RE: why are F15 and F22 recomended as a good - 12/8/2012 3:53 PM   
Lil Hoss



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Status: offline 		Enrique

Thank for explaining the flying habits of the F-15.
I ordered a new 1/9 scale F-15 from FEJ about 10 weeks ago. (Hopefully I will get it soon)
I been flying mostly all the boomerangs and a couple scale jets but never a F-15. Your words on it are positive.....
I do have a consern though, The landing gear sure has a narrow stance. Are they a challenge to land? And I fly off a nicely groomed GRASS field.
I can hold my own on landings. Do they touch down well????
Thank you again for your explanition on the F-15

Hoss

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RE: why are F15 and F22 recomended as a good - 12/8/2012 4:20 PM   
hooker53



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Status: offline 		If lifting body's a factor, it's gonna be hard to not Recomend a CT-114. That was the one I went with for my first scale jet. Have not flown it yet but all that I have seen is almost like landing a Shockjet. It also don't need a big turbine to push it above scale speeds if you want it to.

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RE: why are F15 and F22 recomended as a good - 12/8/2012 4:20 PM   
ron Sweeney


 

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Status: offline 		I think the main ingredient necessary is a light wing loading. I have a 17 pound F15 that takes off in 70 yards and lands at walking pace. I also have a JL f22 which hasn't flown yet. I have watched lots of video of the F22 and have yet to see one with a short take off. Yes the raptor can be brought in slow but I am really anxious that I will be able to lift my raptor off our field. I witnessed a tragic failure of a Viperjet today that just would not rotate and ripped out its undercarriage in the long grass. There is little opportunity with artfs to remove any weight and I see Chinese manufacturers conducting their test flights from long hard runways. I have also seen 30 +pound Avonds F15s struggle to make it from grass strips. My observations, Ron.

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RE: why are F15 and F22 recomended as a good - 12/8/2012 5:44 PM   
erbroens



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lil Hoss

Enrique

Thank for explaining the flying habits of the F-15.
I ordered a new 1/9 scale F-15 from FEJ about 10 weeks ago. (Hopefully I will get it soon)
I been flying mostly all the boomerangs and a couple scale jets but never a F-15. Your words on it are positive.....
I do have a consern though, The landing gear sure has a narrow stance. Are they a challenge to land? And I fly off a nicely groomed GRASS field.
I can hold my own on landings. Do they touch down well????
Thank you again for your explanition on the F-15

Hoss


Anytime, I think you will not have any problem whatsoever. The main difference in flying a F-15 and a Boomer is that the F-15 has a much "faster" roll feeling due to it lower inertia moment in that axis, that´s not a problem if you are aware of it and use a moderate aleiron setting in the elevons in the first dozen flights.

The landing technique in the F-15 is never going below 1/3 throttle in the final approach until you are sure you are going to do the runway. Also unlike the boomer keep the nose of the plane well up and do the final touchdown with the mains, keeping the nosewheel away of the ground as much as possible. Concentrate in doing the landing paralel to the runway and in the middle of it because if you try to correct the line you will scratch a wingtip due to the narrow landing gear.

This plane looks mean but it is much easier to land than many sport jets sold as trainers.. good luck, as I am sure you will like it.

best regards, Enrique.


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RE: why are F15 and F22 recomended as a good - 12/8/2012 5:49 PM   
rhklenke



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Status: offline 		I don't have much info. on F-22 models - there don't seem to be many that show up at flyins and I've never flown one, so there's not much I can add there.

F-16 models are OK, as long as they are bigger than 1/8 scale. At 1/8 scale, you simply can't get a turbine and a reasonable amount of fuel in them and not have them be lead sleds. However, if they are larger than 1/8th scale, then they get better. I build an Avons F-16 for a buddy (1/7.5th scale, I believe) with a Jetcat Titan and tailerons only (which kept it light) and it flys great. I have another friend who has a 1/6th scale Skymaster F-16 and it too, flys very well.

As far as the F-15 is concerned, I think Enrique hit the nail on the head as to why they fly so well. I have yet to see *any* 1/9th scale F-15 that did not fly well - at high speed as well as low. The F-15 has the big wings *and* the lifting body fuselage (ever seen the story of the Israeli F-15 that landed with only 1 wing?!?) which makes them able to fly *and* be controllable at very low speeds. The possible exception might be one that, for some reason, was built too heavy, although if its an ARF, its hard to see how that could happen if you stayed with all of the recommended/supplied gear...

On the other hand, the takeoff/landing stability is a factor of which F-15 kit you have - not all of them are the same. Two of my friends have had (or still have) Air Magic and Jet Legend F-15's. Both of them had wider gear stances and track well on the ground. That makes both of them easy to takeoff and land - as well as easy to fly.

On the other hand, my FEJ F-15 had a very narrow, tall gear stance and it was a *bear* on the ground. The only way I was able to make it reasonably easy to takeoff and land was to tilt the gear outward - thus making the main wheel stance almost 2" wider at the base, and adding a gyro on the nose gear to help steer it at high speeds. With these mods, it was much better - although you still had to be *very* careful of how you gave steering inputs late in the takeoff roll or early in the landing roll.

Don't ask me how "scale" models of the same aircraft could have such different gear configurations, but they most certainly do...

My highest recommendation for a 1/9th ARF F-15 is the JL one from Global Jet Club. A nice flying, and takeoff/landing airplane.

Bob

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RE: why are F15 and F22 recomended as a good - 12/8/2012 8:11 PM   
Wayne22



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Status: offline 		I'd scratch the F-22 off that list. We have one, and both takeoffs and landings are long and fast.
F-15's seem to be a lot tamer in that department....

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RE: why are F15 and F22 recomended as a good - 12/8/2012 8:41 PM   
Lil Hoss



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Status: offline 		I no I didn't start this post but I sure am happy with the responses.
I just got notice that my F-15 is being shipped next Wednesday.
One other thing........ I ALWAYS been a Jetcat guy. I had several. From a P60 all the way thru to a P120 SE
Well this time I bought a new Kingtech 140-G. I did a lot of reading here on RCU and really never heard a negitive comment that wasn't taken care of.
I hope my gamble pays off.
It will have 31# of thrust and it should work perfect in a 1/9 scale F-15

Thanks
Hoss

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RE: why are F15 and F22 recomended as a good - 12/8/2012 9:14 PM   
rcfun2005


 

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Status: offline 		some really great info ... thanks so much for the comments ...


as usual with jets the details make a difference ... sounds like all f-15 are not the same design ... so landings charteristics are different...


yes , the f-22 for me ,,, is off the list. ,,,, the f15 has long solid history.


thanks again for the input.








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RE: why are F15 and F22 recomended as a good - 12/8/2012 9:54 PM   
gunradd



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Status: offline 		My F22 was my first turbine and it has not been hard at all to fly. But like the others said the main gear is behind the CG so can be hard to rotate but hey thats what thrust vectoring is for

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RE: why are F15 and F22 recomended as a good - 12/8/2012 10:31 PM   
Justflying1


 

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Status: online 		 Hello,
 
Keep your F-15 as light as possible.
The F-15 will fly very slow as everyone has mentioned but its easy said than done.
Landing Slow on the back wheels (Like it should be done )  requires skill. (throttle management)
If you fly it slow and go and land on the back wheels and don’t give it the rite power when needed there is a good chance you will do damage to the landing gear.
Not trying to say that its to hard but you have to be mind full of this.  My advise is that if you cant land the Elan smoothly and where you want it to land you are not ready for the F-15.
My F15 is a little Heavy compared to the Avonds model and needs lots of power before touch down. Something im still trying to master.
Anyone can land Fast but the trick is to know your model and land it at that model appropriate speed.
It makes my stomach turn when I heir someone say how easy his F-15 is to land only to watch them land it way to fast.  IM no expert but have seen a couple of expert F-15 flyers so I know what my aim is for when it comes to landing my F-15. 
The good thing about the F-15 is that it has plenty of lift in the design and will not tend to drop a wing like some other Jets.  What it will do is loose lots of altitude fast and this is why you have to have good throttle response.
Flying the F-15 or any other Jet way to fast over the runway cutting the throttle back and glide it in on a full size air strip while it has plenty of speed  does not make a good Jet pilot.
Pick a spot on the middle of the runway come in slow with your nose high and see if you can land it on that spot.
This will take a lot of practice and something I practice on all my landings but it will make you a better pilot in the long run.


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RE: why are F15 and F22 recomended as a good - 12/9/2012 2:15 AM   
sysiek



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Status: offline 		I have f-15 ,f-22 ,Rafale ,Gripen,Eurofighter and the best is the Eurofighter scale sport stress free on landings and slow fly so if you looking for the best scale jet don't buy other think than Eurofighter from carf .

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RE: why are F15 and F22 recomended as a good - 12/9/2012 3:21 AM   
essyou35


 

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Status: offline 		The reason is that these are delta wings, so they dont really tend to tip stall, like a swept wing does. This can help a newer flyer out. IMO, here are things that matter more than the type of jet.

Wing loading, some version of jets are going to be heavier than others. YOu can have an easy to fly light f-16 such as an cemark or you can have a heavy beast like my 30 lb flyeagle which is more sensitive to the landings, too hot you break it, too slow and you crash. Also takes about 400 feet to get off the ground.

Gear doors: Having gear doors can turn any jet into a handful if you are not sure what to expect. My flyeagle f-16 the trim goes out the door once gear is down and I need 50% power to keep it from falling like a rock. I have stalled it hard a few times on landing but because its a delta it just elevatored down instead of flipping upside down.

Wing loading, gear doors, as well as wing type are what you want to look at. A heavy swept wing better be good on the energy management.

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RE: why are F15 and F22 recomended as a good - 12/9/2012 5:06 AM   
Justflying1


 

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Status: online 		An F-16  is not a Delta.


Neither is the F-15 or F-22. 

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RE: why are F15 and F22 recomended as a good - 12/9/2012 5:07 AM   
YellowAircraft



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Status: online 		Hi,

Yeah, I gotta disagree on the F-22. I can't speak for other makes, but ours is easier to fly and land than our F-15 in my opinion. Here's a video of a couple of flights that show that the bird can land relatively slowly. The first landing was a mayday with full fuel, so don't judge that one. The second was nice and slow IMO. Also, the takeoff is at around 250' which ain't bad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZdvPheV00U

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RE: why are F15 and F22 recomended as a good - 12/9/2012 5:46 AM   
sysiek



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Status: offline 		Ther is more companies than yellow making f-15-f-22-lake Skymaster Feibao jetlegent the all fly almost the same .

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RE: why are F15 and F22 recomended as a good - 12/9/2012 5:54 AM   
Justflying1


 

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Status: online 		Skymaster does not make an F-22.

The lighter you keep them the easier they fly.  If you have all moving surfaces than your model will be heavier.
They might fly the same but the detail on any of the Yellowaircraft and Avonds Kits is no comparison to the others. 

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RE: why are F15 and F22 recomended as a good - 12/9/2012 6:04 AM   
sysiek



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Status: offline 		Yes I have one f-22 and is skymaster.

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RE: why are F15 and F22 recomended as a good - 12/9/2012 6:11 AM   
Justflying1


 

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Status: online 		 My apologies, I should have worded a little better.
I do realize that Skymaster use to make an F-22  but they do no longer make it to my knowledge.
Please correct me if I'm wrong. 
 


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RE: why are F15 and F22 recomended as a good - 12/9/2012 6:27 AM   
RCJetBazz


 

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Status: offline 		With their aspect ratio plus lex and taileron, they are every bit of delta principal, hence their performance
quote:

ORIGINAL: Justflying1

An F-16  is not a Delta.


Neither is the F-15 or F-22. 



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RE: why are F15 and F22 recomended as a good - 12/9/2012 6:28 AM   
essyou35


 

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Status: offline 		I'm not going to argue with you on this, but here is a small exert from wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-16#Design

"The F-16 has a cropped-delta planform incorporating wing-fuselage blending and forebody "

Basically these jets are delta wings, a variation thereof, and behave similar to delta wings. From our model perspective, they dont tend to tip stall and generate lots of lift from the fuse.

Regardless, I agree with you that weight is the main concern here. I dont care what wing you have if you have a light wing loading like a
foamy its not going to matter.

These are just toys and comparison to the real thing is kinda pointless. I do think that gear doors though, or draggy gear, can add a element of difficulty.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Justflying1

An F-16  is not a Delta.


Neither is the F-15 or F-22. 



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