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WHATS YOUR TAKE ON WEIGHT? - 12/8/2012 3:59 PM   
sensei



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Status: offline 		I have noticed that many kit and scratch builders do not consider or even care about the weight of there aircraft. So just for interest lets hear your take on the subject.

Bob

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RE: WHATS YOUR TAKE ON WEIGHT? - 12/8/2012 4:26 PM   
ARUP


 

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Status: offline 		Build as light as possible. You can always add weight. Light weight flies slower which looks more realistic, IMHO. Your mileage may vary.

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RE: WHATS YOUR TAKE ON WEIGHT? - 12/8/2012 4:47 PM   
scale only 4 me



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quote:

ORIGINAL: sensei

I have noticed that many kit and scratch builders do not consider or even care about the weight of there aircraft. So just for interest lets hear your take on the subject.

Bob


Not sure what your point is,, many times a conventionally built kit or scratch build project will be heavier just because they way the parts are cut relative to laser cut jig built ARFs. Not much a builder can do about it and not caring are two different things.

Where this really goes is many new to the hobby, you know the guys the ARFs drug in, are learning to fly these light weight easy to fly ARFs and they think they are and do become hot shot pilots quickly. But give them a high wing-loading scratch built plane and watch them struggle and go on and on about how it flies like crap.

I have several scale planes I wouldn't trust the best 3D guys in my club to fly,, they just couldn't handle it.

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RE: WHATS YOUR TAKE ON WEIGHT? - 12/8/2012 4:52 PM   
Mustangman40


 

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Status: offline 		Building light and building strong, that's what I strive for.. But if it comes down to strength or weight, strength wins in my book every time... A lot has to do with what type of plane you are building, lots of them fly better with some weight behind them.. Now a 3D machine isn't one of them, so it all depends on the plane and how you like to fly...

I'm building a TF GS P47 right now and the power plant I am using is twice the size that is needed, I like going fast, it's my thing..lol
I have been changing things as I build to beef them up so to say, but i have done it where I haven't added much weight at all. The result is a plane that can take the speed I plan on flying it at, but not be to heavy where it won't fly at the speeds i want it to...

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RE: WHATS YOUR TAKE ON WEIGHT? - 12/8/2012 4:58 PM   
Mustangman40


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: scale only 4 me


quote:

ORIGINAL: sensei

I have noticed that many kit and scratch builders do not consider or even care about the weight of there aircraft. So just for interest lets hear your take on the subject.

Bob


Not sure what your point is,, many times a conventionally built kit or scratch build project will be heavier just because they way the parts are cut relative to laser cut jig built ARFs. Not much a builder can do about it and not caring are two different things.

Where this really goes is many new to the hobby, you know the guys the ARFs drug in, are learning to fly these light weight easy to fly ARFs and they think they are and do become hot shot pilots quickly. But give them a high wing-loading scratch built plane and watch them struggle and go on and on about how it flies like crap.

I have several scale planes I wouldn't trust the best 3D guys in my club to fly,, they just couldn't handle it.

Flame suit on boys




Good points Scale and I agree..... 
It took me a lot of getting use to when i got my first foammie, I was use to flying heavier planes that fly like, well, planes...  Now my 50cc pitts that you know about, well it's the best of both worlds!  I can fly it like a plane and IMHO it flies so smooth, or with the flip of  switch and the extra power, toss it around the sky doing things a plane isn't suppose to do........


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RE: WHATS YOUR TAKE ON WEIGHT? - 12/8/2012 5:07 PM   
TFF


 

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Status: offline 		Many builders also dont fly; just build. I try to pick the best wood for the job. Might weigh the wood before use. I prefer not weigh the plane out of superstition. The ones weighed have been totaled.

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RE: WHATS YOUR TAKE ON WEIGHT? - 12/8/2012 7:40 PM   
Gray Beard


 

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Status: offline 		I have never been a weight watcher but I have never just added weight for no reason. I built the two Swoose float planes over the summer. #2 went electric so I watched the weight as well as I could. Knowing from the start these planes come out very tail heavy I really watched how I built aft of the CG. #1 was my own plane and I fully sheeted and glassed it. I also used a very heavy engine twice the size called for trying to compensate for the CG problem, mounted everything I could forward of the CG, used the heaviest spinner I had and I still need about 1.5 ounces of lead on the motor mount. Not a big deal.
I'm not one to worry enough about it to be weighing the wood I'm going to use but I do buy contest grade balsa. I know other builders that will weigh every piece of wood that goes into there planes, both kit and plans built. They will replace the wood in a kit if they think it's too heavy, I wouldn't worry about it.
If you are wanting to compare with an ARF then no way will I build that light comparing two of the same plane. Plans and kits use a lot more wood to begin with so they will always weigh more then an ARF. Wood weighs more then air, real glue and epoxy weigh more then whatever they use in an ARF.
I think about the weight but I'm not going to worry about grams. My planes hold up for decades and always fly well so I must be doing something right.

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RE: WHATS YOUR TAKE ON WEIGHT? - 12/8/2012 8:38 PM   
sensei



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quote:

ORIGINAL: scale only 4 me


quote:

ORIGINAL: sensei

I have noticed that many kit and scratch builders do not consider or even care about the weight of there aircraft. So just for interest lets hear your take on the subject.

Bob


Not sure what your point is,, many times a conventionally built kit or scratch build project will be heavier just because they way the parts are cut relative to laser cut jig built ARFs. Not much a builder can do about it and not caring are two different things.

Where this really goes is many new to the hobby, you know the guys the ARFs drug in, are learning to fly these light weight easy to fly ARFs and they think they are and do become hot shot pilots quickly. But give them a high wing-loading scratch built plane and watch them struggle and go on and on about how it flies like crap.

I have several scale planes I wouldn't trust the best 3D guys in my club to fly,, they just couldn't handle it.

Flame suit on boys




Many not all of the 3D flyers have never learned to manage the energy, needed to successfully fly a much heavier wing loaded airplane, so they don't really no about that nasty tip stall characteristic at slower speeds that can exist or a fairly high sink rate even with speed at the bottom of a lets say a simple loop among other traits. In 1996 the mechanical engineering class at Rice University contacted me in support of a group of students that were competing in an R/C airplane heavy weight lifting competition held in Deland Florida, I was the owner of an aerospace composite company in San Antonio and they wished to build an all composites airframe, in addition not one of them had ever flow an R/C airplane so I was the elected pilot for the competition. What I remember vary clearly was this; as we added more and more weight to the airframe it became more difficult to fly and my turns became more and more shallow due to the decreasing power to weight ratio with each weight add and a heavier and heavier wing loading as we went, I mean as we got the airplane really loaded heavy the stability of it's flight path was allot like trying to stand on top of a beach ball if you know what I mean, so I can fully agree with your statement, because I personally know that it takes some of that pilot s##t to fly a heavy airplane and make it look easy, because its all energy management when you get to a certain weight level...


Bob



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RE: WHATS YOUR TAKE ON WEIGHT? - 12/8/2012 8:50 PM   
JohnBuckner



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Status: offline 		Its a safe bet that lite flys better and crashs better. The later is always a factor unless your one that bins an airplane for minor damage.

As far as manufacturers go, most if not all have learned to fib a bit since they have learned Lite not only flys better and crashs better but Lite sells better as well, thats a fact

John

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RE: WHATS YOUR TAKE ON WEIGHT? - 12/8/2012 9:22 PM   
dignlivn


 

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My kits,tend to be on the heavy side of the recommendations.

I build them to fly and hopefully last.


Bob


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RE: WHATS YOUR TAKE ON WEIGHT? - 12/8/2012 9:52 PM   
red head


 

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Status: offline 		For some reason ??? this year almost all my students are flying electric foamies and I can't say I haven't had fun but it has been a learning thing.

The other day I was ask to test fly a guys old glow trainer. I checked it all over then lifted it, OMG will this thing even get off the ground ? I flew it and then started to ENJOY the heavy flight that I'm used to with glow planes compared to electric foamies. My landing ( braging ) was as smooth as glass because I had such good throttle control .

On a second flight I called one of my foamie students over and let him fly the glow plane ( he had never flown anyting but foamies ) . He liked it and said that it was smoother and really nice to fly.
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RE: WHATS YOUR TAKE ON WEIGHT? - 12/9/2012 3:31 AM   
sensei



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Status: offline 		Many times a conventionally built kit or scratch build project will be heavier just because they way the parts are cut relative to laser cut jig built ARFs. Not much a builder can do about it and not caring are two different things.

The builder always has the choice of building a lighter aircraft no matter what scratch built or kit component shapes there may be and ARFs are not nearly as lightweight as an individual can build a quality scratch or kit built airplane for so I would never use an ARFs structure as a benchmark for quality or a weight consideration to something I am building.

Bob





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RE: WHATS YOUR TAKE ON WEIGHT? - 12/9/2012 5:41 AM   
bikerbc


 

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Status: offline 		We had a club project a while back where we all built the same plane with the same motors and everything the same etc... I decided to be a smarty pants and make mine super strong so I used epoxy for most of my glue joints...I was carefull how I applied it. I did not slop it on or anything like that...But guess whos plane was heavier than anybody elses in the end...Mine and not buy just a tiny but...By quite a bit...I did not realize just how much weight we can add buy something as simple as using the wrong glue...It wasent because I didnt care either , I just didnt know better.. Things are really changing..Planes are built different than they used to be...Arfs are made out of stuff that I dont think exsisted when I started building...It is so lite and strong..The way these Arfs go together all interlocking like a puzzle and full of lightening holes makes them very strong but it also makes them disposable when you crash...Our old style kits were easier to repair even if they were a bit heavier...Some of the old style stick built kits were very lite too but it seems to me that they were easier to repair...Some of these ARF's just shatter when you crash them..And replacing is cheaper than reparing .Or is it my imagination ? So I dont know if its all about weight although weight certainly plays a roll...

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RE: WHATS YOUR TAKE ON WEIGHT? - 12/9/2012 5:43 AM   
Gray Beard


 

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Status: offline 		I started building and flying smaller planes after I moved here to Vegas and said I wasn't going to build any more planes with a span over 80 inches again due to storage space but I do have two more to build in the next year or so. The next one I will be watching the weight because it is a stunt plane that can be a pretty good 3-D plane if I like, only a 92 inch but over my 80 inch limit. The other one is the 1/3 scale Howard Pete and it will be extra light weight just due to the design, formers and sticks/stringers for the fuse, very old school building. I'm not going to be watching the grams though but I will be watching the ounces. I already have most of the wood for both and it's some of the lightest I have ever gotten my hands on. It's so light weight I will be buying a new fine tooth blade for cutting it into sheets. I buy my wood in blocks and cut it to size then run it through an over head micro sander.
Pain in the butt to do sometimes but I can get a very light weight plane doing it. The bigger the plane the more I think about the weight but I build very few planes over 80 inches these days. I find the smaller planes get flown a lot more then the big ones I have had. Not to mention the money I have pored into them.

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RE: WHATS YOUR TAKE ON WEIGHT? - 12/9/2012 12:11 PM   
Rob2160



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Status: offline 		A couple of my Foamies IE Parkzone Corsair and the Durafly P51 fly much nicer with a bit of extra weight..

i usually fly with 2200Mah Batt and they fly great  but one day I tried 3000mah batts and both planes just felt much nicer and more solid in the air..

In general I would agree that as light as possible is better but consider this..

I fly a number of corporate jet aircraft and they have MINIMUM Zero fuel weights.. IE.. they are not certified to fly Lighter than this weight..

Citation Jets, especially the 500 model needs extra weight in the front baggage compartment if you are not carrying any Pax.. (Mainly for C of G)

But I would say each aircraft has a "Sweet spot"  too light or too heavy is no good....

Most of the planes I have flown ( full size ) are much easier to land at max landing weight..

Just my 2c worth..

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RE: WHATS YOUR TAKE ON WEIGHT? - 12/9/2012 1:09 PM   
j.duncker



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Status: offline 		Light models fly better.

So simplicate and add more lightness.

This was my mantra when I flew CL combat and had 12.5oz models when the norm was 15 -16 oz models and would outturn them. It continued up to my Avonds F 104 which was 14.5 lbs dry and flew like a dream even on a power out glide home.

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RE: WHATS YOUR TAKE ON WEIGHT? - 12/9/2012 2:29 PM   
jetmech05


 

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Status: offline 		Look at what makes an airplane fly...thrust must over come drag...and lift must overcome gravity (weight)
There is and always will be a trade of of strength to weight...more strength more weight.....You must have enough strength to be structurally sound outside of that the lighter the better....the lighter the airplane is...the lower the stall speed is...the faster, and slower you can fly.....more vertical as well...as said above the lighter the better.

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RE: WHATS YOUR TAKE ON WEIGHT? - 12/9/2012 2:38 PM   
tenacious101010


 

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Status: offline 		One of the heaviest wing loading planes we have is a 80 inch wingspan WW1 SE-5. It is powered by a 160 Outrunner and flies amazingly stable. It looks so very real when flying, it even slows down nicely to a scale landing speed. The plane weighs 25 pounds RTF. Quite heavy compared to most biplanes of its size and era. But, surprisingly, it flies very well.

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RE: WHATS YOUR TAKE ON WEIGHT? - 12/9/2012 2:48 PM   
sensei



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rob2160

A couple of my Foamies IE Parkzone Corsair and the Durafly P51 fly much nicer with a bit of extra weight..

i usually fly with 2200Mah Batt and they fly great  but one day I tried 3000mah batts and both planes just felt much nicer and more solid in the air..

In general I would agree that as light as possible is better but consider this..

I fly a number of corporate jet aircraft and they have MINIMUM Zero fuel weights.. IE.. they are not certified to fly Lighter than this weight..

Citation Jets, especially the 500 model needs extra weight in the front baggage compartment if you are not carrying any Pax.. (Mainly for C of G)

But I would say each aircraft has a ''Sweet spot''  too light or too heavy is no good....

Most of the planes I have flown ( full size ) are much easier to land at max landing weight..

Just my 2c worth..


Of course during the certification process every aircraft gets certified at a given empty weight as built by the manufacturer and adding weight to the nose is positively a tail heavy issue with the 500. you cannot compare flight characteristics when it comes to weight from full scale to a model especially if it is a very small platform; this is due to the reynolds numbers. Reynolds numbers are simply this: The ability to carry weight more efficiently. In laymen terms, the larger a model gets the more efficient it will carry weight, that why you always hear the term giant scale airplanes fly better. Consider this, take a full scale Extra 300 wet is what maybe 1400-1600lbs. now we build ourself a 50% model of it and the average weight on most models this size is as lo as 48 lbs. and as high as 65-70 lbs. and both will fly good with the proper power loading right. Now let build a 50% models that comes in at 700 or 800 lbs. It's not going to be flyable because of those reynolds numbers. Now this is an extreme example just like using foamies in the extreme other direction.

Bob

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RE: WHATS YOUR TAKE ON WEIGHT? - 12/9/2012 3:07 PM   
Speedy-Gonzales


 

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Status: offline 		Come on guys....everyone has known for years that the advertised weight of any given ARF ( or scratch/kit ) is "fudged" and most always favors the light side of the true flying weight. Ask a guy at the field what his plane weighs and then offer to pull a scale out of your truck and watch his face when you ask if you can weigh his plane.

A little extra weight can also be attributed to "durability".

Dave Platt was a master at building light but strong.

I also agree with the comment about trustin a 3D guy with a high wing loaded Warbird but 3D and WWII scale are two completely different types of aircraft and flying practices.

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RE: WHATS YOUR TAKE ON WEIGHT? - 12/9/2012 3:56 PM   
Steve Landron



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Status: offline 		IMHO regarding kit building whether it is scratch or kit built, the lighter the wing loading (lighter the aircraft) the better the aircraft fly's. The one aircraft I built which came in heavy was the "Red Box" TF P-40. The plane had fully sheeted wings, solid balsa sheet stabalizer and rudder assembly. When glassed and painted the plane tipped the scales at 8.5lbs. The plane flew okay but when throttle was pulled back, the plane had a nasty tendancy to go right into a spin. I still have the plane in the garage but will be doing some modifications to the wings and tail feathers in an attempt to drop weight and see how it flys then. Heavy can fly but you have to be on your toes.

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RE: WHATS YOUR TAKE ON WEIGHT? - 12/9/2012 4:17 PM   
invertmast


 

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Status: offline 		I used to not care to much about weight.. it came out to what it came out to.

Recently though, I weight all of my sheet balsa and lump sheets of the same weight (within 10 grams) together. The heavier sheets never get used aft of the wing TE, unless I know the airplane will need tail weight.

Also instead of using lite-ply, I have started replacing it with the next thinner size balsa and laminating it with 3/4 or 2oz glass (depending on how much stress it gets). Firewalls also are no longer 1/2" or thicker. They are 1/4" thick or thinner (no matter how large the engine) and is laminated with CF on one or both sides of it depending on engine size.

Wing spars are starting to convert over to balsa and uni-direction carbon fiber, which in most instances is stronger than spruce for the same weight.

Wing ribs get as many lightning holes as possible in non-structural area's. In the structural area's I quit using 3/32" or 1/8" lite ply doublers and use a 1/16" aircraft ply double with 2oz glass between the double and rib. Sometimes they get CG if the wing is very thin around the gear mounting

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RE: WHATS YOUR TAKE ON WEIGHT? - 12/9/2012 4:37 PM   
scale only 4 me



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Steve Landron

IMHO regarding kit building whether it is scratch or kit built, the lighter the wing loading (lighter the aircraft) the better the aircraft fly's. The one aircraft I built which came in heavy was the ''Red Box'' TF P-40. The plane had fully sheeted wings, solid balsa sheet stabalizer and rudder assembly. When glassed and painted the plane tipped the scales at 8.5lbs. The plane flew okay but when throttle was pulled back, the plane had a nasty tendancy to go right into a spin. I still have the plane in the garage but will be doing some modifications to the wings and tail feathers in an attempt to drop weight and see how it flys then. Heavy can fly but you have to be on your toes.

Sounds like something other than weight was going on here,, 8.5lbs with 32.6 oz/sq' isn't really that bad for that size plane glassed and painted, I had a p-51b about the same, I thought it flew great. I don't know anyone who built a red box warbird back in the day that came in any where near the weight on the box. 5.5-6.5lbs,, yeah right



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RE: WHATS YOUR TAKE ON WEIGHT? - 12/9/2012 4:43 PM   
sensei



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy-Gonzales

Come on guys....everyone has known for years that the advertised weight of any given ARF ( or scratch/kit ) is ''fudged'' and most always favors the light side of the true flying weight. Ask a guy at the field what his plane weighs and then offer to pull a scale out of your truck and watch his face when you ask if you can weigh his plane.

A little extra weight can also be attributed to ''durability''.

Dave Platt was a master at building light but strong.

I also agree with the comment about trustin a 3D guy with a high wing loaded Warbird but 3D and WWII scale are two completely different types of aircraft and flying practices.


I love when they want to place one of mine on the scales, I tell them bring them on. Here is a picture taken at the Heat Wave event in Oklahoma a couple of years ago, the airplane is a 40% SD models yak That a buddy asked me to lighten lighten up. There was thread on the airplane on another forum that caused allot of controversy as I went through the progress because it was the hot new ARF on the market and there was no way to take any more weight out of this thing according to the populous LOL, so when this 141" wingspan airplane equipped with a DA 170 completed hit the scales at a stellar 36 lbs. every one wanted proof. So the event director brought these scales to fly in so that god and everyone could see for themselves. There was around 6 or 7 40% SD Models Yaks at the event that day and we weighed them all, in stock configuration with power plants ranging from ZDZ 210s to 3W 212s and all of them came in between 48 and believe it or not, 59 lbs. and the flying characteristics were radically different. One thing that became obvious that day is that almost nobody really new the all up weight of there airplanes and they weighed maybe 40 or more airplanes that day and some so heavy that they where not even legal to fly that day.

Bob



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RE: WHATS YOUR TAKE ON WEIGHT? - 12/9/2012 6:48 PM   
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Status: offline 		The lighter the better my short solent is 100 inch wing span and weighs 8 pounds with the two 3-cell 4000 lipos in it.It flys like a slow trainer and lands slow and scale looking. I have seen some scale planes fly like a brick ,and then they dont look scale anymore. joe

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