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RE: NEW Post - Non turnaround vs. TA - 12/14/2012 1:53 AM

PatternPilot

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Dan,

Take a look at the non turnaround that classic pattern association flies http://www.classicpatternassociation.com/uploads/1980-1981.pdf

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RE: NEW Post - Non turnaround vs. TA - 12/14/2012 11:58 AM

cmoulder

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Scott, I took a look at the pre-Aresti diagrams for the maneuvers, and while I appreciate the skill involved I am pretty sure that TA appeals to me a lot more becasue it is an integrated, flowing performance with one maneuver setting up the next.

I found - and still find - it very difficult to make those nice, smooth transitions and judge the heading, radii and the 45 deg and vertical lines at the ends of the box, but I am getting better at it. Seems to me that the whole process of learning TA will make me an overall better pilot (eventually!

) than if I had learned only centered maneuvers.

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RE: NEW Post - Non turnaround vs. TA - 12/14/2012 12:43 PM

PatternPilot

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Bob,

Jim Quinn of AGS( Endicott NY ) will behaving several CPA events... The point is the Non -turnaround group gives new entry level pilots a place to show up with a sport plane or classic plane and try competition in a low stress level. As people pointed out alot of guys feel intimidated showing up to a AMA contest with out the latest & greatest 2M plane. This is not just for new pattern people, seasoned pilots are competing also.

It is another outlet to fly the old style planes and patterns before things got complicated

Scott

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RE: NEW Post - Non turnaround vs. TA - 12/14/2012 12:48 PM

Columbus Ron

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If the intent of this "movement" is to introduce a non-turnaround class or event at a regular Pattern meet then I'm opposed to it. Most people move up from sportsman to intermediate after one full year. That suggests to me that sportsman does a good job prepping you for the intermediate class and that most want the challenge of flying a complete turnaround sequence like we have in intermediate.

I do think the classic pattern association will help attract new pilots to turnaround pattern but I don't think it is the magic pill either.

I also think classic pattern is a great transition for the older flyer who can't fly turnaround pattern anymore but still wants to compete.

I believe turnout at D4 contests is actually pretty good (20+ pilots).

I believe membership is down for 5 reasons: (1) IMAC, (2) Helis, (3) fear of competion, (4) aging membership in NSRCA, and (5) most people don't find practicing pattern or IMAC relaxing.

My 2 cents

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RE: NEW Post - Non turnaround vs. TA - 12/14/2012 1:14 PM

PatternPilot

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Ron,

The combo AMA & Classic events have been working out really well this year. Guys get to fly both types of planes, and the guys who never saw pattern before TA get to see the old planes and maneuvers also. Your 5 points is spot on and items 3-5 is why classic pattern events are becoming so popular. We had 18 contest this year and I know of 4 right now planned for 2013.

Some have found while trying to get others involved in pattern at clubs etc. when you start talking turnaround that the guys get the deer in the headlight look and turn off.. If you introduce them to a simple patterns with normal sport planes and not that 2K+ plane guys seem willing to try it.

anyhow TA or non TA it is all fun

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RE: NEW Post - Non turnaround vs. TA - 12/14/2012 5:19 PM

Planeclaims

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My $.02,

Let's face it, modern day pattern flying requires a substantial financial committment, not only for the plane and accessories and radio but also for preventive maintenance, traveling, lodging, meals, etc. Pattern flying requires practice and discipline. It appears most of the really talented pilots who consistantly do well year after year have sponsors and alot of free time to practice. I work full time and maintain a home and enjoy other activities in addition to R/C flying. Pattern competition is judged. To the casual observer, pattern is boring. The majority of the members at my club are sport flyers who appear to want nothing more than a place to fly around without being told what to do or how to do it better. These days, R/C flying doesn't require the pilot to build their model from a kit. Some ARF owners will trash a crashed plane rather than attempt a repair. I guess it's cheaper in the long run.

Having just CD'd an AMA D3 contest with 26 registered pilots, 3 of whom were youngsters, it appears pattern is making a comeback. Granted, pattern is not for everyone, just those select few who have the desire to fly better than the other guy and be rewarded for their efforts from time to time.

Most all of the experienced pattern enthusiasts I've met over the years will go out of their way to lend a hand to someone in need of assistance and are happy to answer questions about their airplanes and set-ups.

Oh well, back to work!

Merry Christmas to all.

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RE: NEW Post - Non turnaround vs. TA - 12/14/2012 5:56 PM

Surefire

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Robert - It has been great getting to know you and your wife at the pattern contests last season! I hope you don't mind but I have used you as an example of positive synergy between AMA and Classic pattern. The 2013 season is shaping up nicely and we will have several combined AMA/Classic events again. There also looks to be a few more Classic only events being planned! Sounds like fun to me!

Thanks,

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RE: NEW Post - Non turnaround vs. TA - 12/14/2012 6:35 PM

bafflerback

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Its interesting reading all the posts on RCU concerning changing the pattern and doing other things to attract new people. Everything said has it’s good points but there is one thing you are either missing of don't want to discuss. That’s your airplane restriction. The pilot flying an Ugly Stick might be interested in flying pattern. And it’s great to get him out and started. But in most cases he will never come.

I flew pattern from 79 through the early 90’s. I enjoyed the competition and flew every chance I could. I left around 95 because of job and family concerns. I’ve continued to fly but not compete.
About 6 or 7 years ago my son started to get the desire to compete. We looked into pattern but because our airplanes were too heavy we elected to go to IMAC. Notice I said too heavy not too big. We both had airplanes that fit the box but they were closer to 14 pounds. So not legal. I called a couple of the CD’s in the area and they said if we wanted to come fly Novice they would look the other way. Because of my years flying pattern I didn’t think it was fair to fly Novice and my son said the Novice class bored him.

So we took our 14 pound airplanes to IMAC where we were welcomed and fit the rules. We eventually moved up in class and began flying 35%. Because most of the IMAC contests in this area are about 3 and a half hours we decided to build a couple of legal pattern airplane and fly IMAC and pattern whichever is closer.

If you guy would get off the weight rule in at least Novice and Sportsman we would have been pattern flyers 7 years ago. If you want new people make it easy to enter the lower classes. A pilot with an 80 inch Edge 540 that weighs 14 pounds and is looking for a new challenge will show up before the pilot with an Ugly Stick that is having trouble stringing 3 maneuvers together.

Just my thought
Hopefully we’ll fly some pattern this year.
Bob Afflerback

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RE: NEW Post - Non turnaround vs. TA - 12/14/2012 7:09 PM

PatternPilot

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bafflerback

Its interesting reading all the posts on RCU concerning changing the pattern and doing other things to attract new people. Everything said has it’s good points but there is one thing you are either missing of don't want to discuss. That’s your airplane restriction. The pilot flying an Ugly Stick might be interested in flying pattern. And it’s great to get him out and started. But in most cases he will never come.

I flew pattern from 79 through the early 90’s. I enjoyed the competition and flew every chance I could. I left around 95 because of job and family concerns. I’ve continued to fly but not compete.
About 6 or 7 years ago my son started to get the desire to compete. We looked into pattern but because our airplanes were too heavy we elected to go to IMAC. Notice I said too heavy not too big. We both had airplanes that fit the box but they were closer to 14 pounds. So not legal. I called a couple of the CD’s in the area and they said if we wanted to come fly Novice they would look the other way. Because of my years flying pattern I didn’t think it was fair to fly Novice and my son said the Novice class bored him.

So we took our 14 pound airplanes to IMAC where we were welcomed and fit the rules. We eventually moved up in class and began flying 35%. Because most of the IMAC contests in this area are about 3 and a half hours we decided to build a couple of legal pattern airplane and fly IMAC and pattern whichever is closer.

If you guy would get off the weight rule in at least Novice and Sportsman we would have been pattern flyers 7 years ago. If you want new people make it easy to enter the lower classes. A pilot with an 80 inch Edge 540 that weighs 14 pounds and is looking for a new challenge will show up before the pilot with an Ugly Stick that is having trouble stringing 3 maneuvers together.

Just my thought
Hopefully we’ll fly some pattern this year.
Bob Afflerback

Bob,

What airplane restrictions.... Bring on that Ugly stick.. we are flying planes from the 70- thru the early/mid 90's for those who want to fly the true planes of the era.. To date we have see J3 Cubs, to sport planes and even a 30% fly in a CPA event. The point of CPA is come fly your plane, try some competition and like most if you like something you will get the era correct plane, or if it is car shows then the car... CPA is low pressure and we fly one maneuver one pass just like the days before Turnaround.. As far as people coming out... we have had a group in MN start last year with a 1 day primer of setting up a plane and did some practice and even flew a round, when done they asked when the next contest was, this year they had a contest and now have expanded there area including more people of the North Central area.

As far as the weight... on the local level I not been to a contest since the mid 90's that we had a weight check.... most CD's do not have time to do this... On the NATs level yes you need to be at 5KG.

So far a CD to my knowledge has not turned away a pilot at a CPA event. The AMA & CPA combo events get alot more people involved .

Take a look at our site www.classicpatternassociation.com

Scott

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RE: NEW Post - Non turnaround vs. TA - 12/14/2012 7:13 PM

JAS

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My guess Scott is this was regarding an AMA pattern contest. I am surprised that a CD would turn away a 14lb plane that was the same size as a 2m bird. I don't think that any CD's around here would have issue with a set-up like that, after all, who weighs planes locally anyway? Obviously at the Nats, different story, but locally, I don't see where the weight rule can't be overlooked. Besides, I know I've competed at a few contests with a plane that doesn't make weight lol.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bafflerback

Its interesting reading all the posts on RCU concerning changing the pattern and doing other things to attract new people. Everything said has it’s good points but there is one thing you are either missing of don't want to discuss. That’s your airplane restriction. The pilot flying an Ugly Stick might be interested in flying pattern. And it’s great to get him out and started. But in most cases he will never come.

I flew pattern from 79 through the early 90’s. I enjoyed the competition and flew every chance I could. I left around 95 because of job and family concerns. I’ve continued to fly but not compete.
About 6 or 7 years ago my son started to get the desire to compete. We looked into pattern but because our airplanes were too heavy we elected to go to IMAC. Notice I said too heavy not too big. We both had airplanes that fit the box but they were closer to 14 pounds. So not legal. I called a couple of the CD’s in the area and they said if we wanted to come fly Novice they would look the other way. Because of my years flying pattern I didn’t think it was fair to fly Novice and my son said the Novice class bored him.

So we took our 14 pound airplanes to IMAC where we were welcomed and fit the rules. We eventually moved up in class and began flying 35%. Because most of the IMAC contests in this area are about 3 and a half hours we decided to build a couple of legal pattern airplane and fly IMAC and pattern whichever is closer.

If you guy would get off the weight rule in at least Novice and Sportsman we would have been pattern flyers 7 years ago. If you want new people make it easy to enter the lower classes. A pilot with an 80 inch Edge 540 that weighs 14 pounds and is looking for a new challenge will show up before the pilot with an Ugly Stick that is having trouble stringing 3 maneuvers together.

Just my thought
Hopefully we’ll fly some pattern this year.
Bob Afflerback

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RE: NEW Post - Non turnaround vs. TA - 12/14/2012 8:51 PM

bafflerback

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Hey guys.

I was talking about AMA Pattern. I'm building a Dirty Birdy and it there are any CPA contested in this are I will try it. I few pre turn-a-round and enjoyed it. On the weight rule in AMA. What do you do when you show with a heavy airplane and get lucky and win the contest. Then one of the people you beat complains you are flying an illegal airplane. I'd rather not deal with it.

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RE: NEW Post - Non turnaround vs. TA - 12/14/2012 9:41 PM

burtona

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You don't do anything because airplanes are not weighed except at the Nats. No one else knows what your plane weighs and they shouldn't complaign anyway because you beat them despite a weight disadvantage!
Dave

< Message edited by burtona -- 12/14/2012 10:04 PM >

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RE: NEW Post - Non turnaround vs. TA - 12/14/2012 10:44 PM

KLXMASTER14

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Surefire

Robert - It has been great getting to know you and your wife at the pattern contests last season! I hope you don't mind but I have used you as an example of positive synergy between AMA and Classic pattern. The 2013 season is shaping up nicely and we will have several combined AMA/Classic events again. There also looks to be a few more Classic only events being planned! Sounds like fun to me!

Thanks,

Jon,
You are correct, I gave AMA pattern a shot because of Classic pattern (my true love) was included at a local contest. Guess what? Turns out I like AMA pattern too! Enough to drop the IMAC. A year later, District Champion. Looking forward to 2013!

Yes AMA and Classic pattern DO go well together. Win-Win. Old Italian proverb: One hand washes the other.

-Robert

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RE: NEW Post - Non turnaround vs. TA - 12/14/2012 10:47 PM

KLXMASTER14

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One more thing-
Flying both AMA and Classic means I get twice the flying for the same contest buck. Another Win-Win.

-Robert

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RE: NEW Post - Non turnaround vs. TA - 12/15/2012 12:02 AM

n233w

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I'm new at this but I like turnaround because reversing course seems to be a good basic skill. I also fantasize I'm flying ground attack missions in wwII and I'm coming back to get my target repeatedly.

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RE: NEW Post - Non turnaround vs. TA - 12/15/2012 12:33 AM

PatternPilot

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n223w

The difference between TA ( Turnaround ) and Non TA is the end maneuvers. In Non TA the turnarounds are not scored. So you can still have your attack missions

s.

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RE: NEW Post - Non turnaround vs. TA - 12/15/2012 1:43 AM

pvogel

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Bob last I checked the weight restrictions don't apply to Sportsman you fly anything you want, it's a "fly what you brung" kind of thing. Restrictions only really start at the intermediate class and even there the weight rule is relaxed and, as others have pointed out, really only truly matters at the Nats.

Peter+

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RE: NEW Post - Non turnaround vs. TA - 12/15/2012 1:59 AM

stuntflyr

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Great reading all of these varied responses to Scott's original post.

I got into R/C from C/L in 2008 to learn to fly well enough to be competitive in Scale. I really wanted to compete in Pattern and thought 2M was too much money. I liked old 70's and 80's models so;

Flew my first contest at Rusty Dose's Chicago Classic Contest in 2010 with an ARF Tower Kaos. Showed up friday for practice, begged some help from some guys, ended up having a US Team member being my caller for the majority of the contest.
The equipment flown was a Kaos in AMA Sportsman for 5 contests because there were no other Classic contests in SoCal. Best results were with a Tower ARF Kaos, OS 46 AX and an APC 12.25x3.75, (great speed control downhill with the howling engine idling nicely and good uplines with more hp available with the additional rpm). 300 bucks total with all new stuff.
Not optimal in AMA with the Kaos by any means, but definitely doable, I did buy an Osiris 62 and competed in three more contests in 2011 with it, what a difference. But it didn't fly itself and I could still hose up the same things as I did with the Kaos.

That same Kaos is now my son's Classic, or non-turnaround, mount and if he can be available for an AMA contest he'll fly that too. Good flying equipment needn't cost a mint when starting out, anyway.

I'm really glad that so many people in D7 are getting turned on by non-turnaround, or Classic. Like Robert intimates, it is more flying at the same contest or if not at the same event more flying per month. I'm all for that.

Chris...

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RE: NEW Post - Non turnaround vs. TA - 12/15/2012 4:21 AM

EscapeFlyer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PatternPilot

n223w

The difference between TA ( Turnaround ) and Non TA is the end maneuvers. In Non TA the turnarounds are not scored. So you can still have your attack missions

s.

n233w-

Ohh Yeah!!! A cuban 8 or reverse cuban 8 coming back at you from the far distance at Mach 2 sets you up for some sweet straffing missions!!! With a sweet precision maneuver in-between!

I remember seeing Chip Hyde flying his Jykel on a Video... Man! Did he let that airplane go out there... But- boy was the return ride one sweet trip to watch.

Brian

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RE: NEW Post - Non turnaround vs. TA - 12/15/2012 2:06 PM

klhoard

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bafflerback
. . .<snip>. .
If you guy would get off the weight rule
. . .<snip>. .
Bob Afflerback

.
OH NOES!!!!!
.

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RE: NEW Post - Non turnaround vs. TA - 12/15/2012 8:58 PM

cmoulder

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quote:

.
OH NOES!!!!!
.

I'll leave fingernails in the door jamb before I get into THAT discussion again!

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Bob

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RE: NEW Post - Non turnaround vs. TA - 12/16/2012 1:11 PM

danamania

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Hi Scott, all, the proposed date for the LVRCS classic / contemporary contest is July 13-14. I forwarded your offer to post this to the CD, who is very much interested in classic pattern so I expect he may be in touch. With some changes to who and how the LVRCS field is maintained, the Pres decided that May would be too early in the flying season to be ready for a contest. Given the proximity to Nats week, the classic side of the contest will likely have to carry the day for attendance. Will be interesting to see how many in the area come out to LV to fly classic in July. Cheers!

quote:

ORIGINAL: PatternPilot

Dana,

Please send me the dates and contest info and i will post on the CPA site.. Jim and I have talked about this contest he just did not have the dates. If you wnat the CPA logo let me know.

Scott cpa#2

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RE: NEW Post - Non turnaround vs. TA - 12/16/2012 10:17 PM

MOJORC

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Does this mean I need a picture ID and can start in sportsman class ?
Jim T Team ME !

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RE: NEW Post - Non turnaround vs. TA - 12/17/2012 12:38 AM

PatternPilot

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Here is proof of the fun we are having flying classic planes and patterns

http://www.kizoa.com/slideshow/d3620598k3292746o1/classic-pattern-2012

scott

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