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K&B 61 w/pump starving!!! HELP - 12/9/2012 12:02 PM   
flyerdave


 

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Status: offline 		Just bought a K&B 61 with perry pump and perry carb. The engine looks brand new and couldn't have been run much at all.Compression is what you would expect from a new engine. I mounted it last night and filled the tank with fresh cool power 10% and made sure the glow plug was hot. I opened the high end needle approx. 2 turns and set the low end at the factory mark. Choking was no problem as it pulled the fuel with authority but when I dropped the throttle to approx. 20% and spun it over, it starts and runs good for about 5 seconds then acts like it's starving for fuel.I have tried adjusting both the low and high needles without much luck.I know there is another adjustment screw on top of the carb, but I haven't messed with that one at all.
I had just about given up on glow engines and gone to all gas,but got a new 60 size big stik and thought this K&B would be a good match. I really hoped that a pumped engine would run even better with respect to tank location. I think if I can ever get this one tuned properly, it will be a good runner,like I said it looks like it has hardly been run at all.I just need some good advice on how to tune this thing. Thanks in advance.

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RE: K&B 61 w/pump starving!!! HELP - 12/9/2012 3:34 PM   
beppeVRCS


 

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Status: offline 		Ciao! Unfortunately I cannot give you the remedy (if someone can assist, I will be interested too), but my best bet is a stuck pump. I have many good "old" engines, in a very nice condition, almost new, that run perfectly WITHOUT the pumpo (you need an additional back cover) and just do not run with the pump. I'm quite sure the diaphragm does not work anymore, but do not have a proper cure. I tried more than once to soak the pump in red transmission fluid, that I use as After-Run, but no vail. May be the oil was not the good one... Any suggestions?
Thanks.
Beppe


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RE: K&B 61 w/pump starving!!! HELP - 12/9/2012 3:45 PM   
Hobbsy



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Status: offline 		I believe that on a Big Stik you mount the engine at 90 degrees from upright. If so it won't need the pump. Of course if it is a Perry Pump Carb it will need it. Do you have the stock carb?

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RE: K&B 61 w/pump starving!!! HELP - 12/9/2012 3:46 PM   
1QwkSport2.5r



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quote:

ORIGINAL: flyerdave

Just bought a K&B 61 with perry pump and perry carb. The engine looks brand new and couldn't have been run much at all.Compression is what you would expect from a new engine. I mounted it last night and filled the tank with fresh cool power 10% and made sure the glow plug was hot. I opened the high end needle approx. 2 turns and set the low end at the factory mark. Choking was no problem as it pulled the fuel with authority but when I dropped the throttle to approx. 20% and spun it over, it starts and runs good for about 5 seconds then acts like it's starving for fuel.I have tried adjusting both the low and high needles without much luck.I know there is another adjustment screw on top of the carb, but I haven't messed with that one at all.
I had just about given up on glow engines and gone to all gas,but got a new 60 size big stik and thought this K&B would be a good match. I really hoped that a pumped engine would run even better with respect to tank location. I think if I can ever get this one tuned properly, it will be a good runner,like I said it looks like it has hardly been run at all.I just need some good advice on how to tune this thing. Thanks in advance.

The pump pressure might need to be adjusted. If the adustment screw is backed most of the way out, try turning it in a turn or two and try to run it again. Just be careful to not bottom out that screw too hard - damage to the diaphragm may result.

Of course that is if your pump has an adjustment. Is the tank vented to atmosphere?

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RE: K&B 61 w/pump starving!!! HELP - 12/9/2012 5:56 PM   
flyerdave


 

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Status: offline 		I'm not very familiar with this pump, but it does have a hex head screw in the center of the pump which could be the adjustment. BTW, I do have the tank vented. Thanks

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RE: K&B 61 w/pump starving!!! HELP - 12/9/2012 6:49 PM   
proptop



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Status: offline 		Yes, that screw is the adjustment...in for more, out for less...just like an Oxy / Acet. torch set-up.

Easiest way to check if the pump is actually pumping is to pull the fuel line off the carb and flip the prop several times...the fuel should come spurting out of the fuel line.

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RE: K&B 61 w/pump starving!!! HELP - 12/10/2012 3:05 AM   
flyerdave


 

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Status: offline 		Well,I tried running the engine today and after an hour of trying to adjust the pump, I finally gave up and bypassed the pump and I can't believe it but it ran great. I am going to put a pressure tap on the muffler and see what that does for it. I really thought it wouldn't work with a pump carburator, but it ran great on the bench.I wonder if I should expect much difference in the air. Thanks

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RE: K&B 61 w/pump starving!!! HELP - 12/10/2012 3:37 AM   
earlwb


 

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Status: online 		The problem may be that you may not have a pump carburetor on the engine. Many people get the Perry pump and try to use it with the non-pump Perry carb. It usually doesn't work all that well.  The pump carbs have a much larger bore on the inside versus the stock carb and they change the mid range calibration too. Someone could have swapped out the carb at one time or another too.




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RE: K&B 61 w/pump starving!!! HELP - 12/10/2012 4:06 AM   
flyerdave


 

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Status: offline 		Can I just disconnect the pump or do I need to replace the backplate if I'm not going to use the pump?

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RE: K&B 61 w/pump starving!!! HELP - 12/10/2012 4:52 AM   
blw



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Status: offline 		But he said it is a Perry carb.

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RE: K&B 61 w/pump starving!!! HELP - 12/10/2012 4:57 AM   
proptop



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Status: offline 		The Perry Pump Carb throttle bore is .375" and straight thru..not venturi shaped. The non-pump Perry carb has a noticable venturi shaped throttle bore, and could be .312" or maybe even .275"

You can bypass the pump...I have done it, if I know that the pump isn't leaking anywhere...and just to make myself feel better, I loop a piece of fuel line to connect the inlet and outlet. (I don't know if the engine could have an air leak, if the diaphram is perforated,? )

Std. non-pump backplates are available...mecoa or rcu marketplace, epay, etc. etc.

If the engine has a pump carb it "might" run O.K. on the test stand...but once airborne, the increased fuel demands...variations in fuel tank head pressure...and the straight thru (no venturi ) throttle might make a big difference in the way it runs...(or doesn't? )

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RE: K&B 61 w/pump starving!!! HELP - 12/10/2012 7:46 AM   
TFF


 

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Status: offline 		I doubt the carb will draw well in the air. You can go to the external Perry pump and bypass the other, you will have to get crank case pressure though. may be through a backplate screw or a regular backplate tapped. The old pumps can warp the diaphragm with age of just sitting and you cant rebuild them. Can be a crap shoot with old pumps. My hobby shop has 2 new K&B backplate pumps on the shelf, but I hesitate to buy because they are 20 years old and possibly bad. Dont want to argue on a return with the shop owner over $30 bucks he is asking.

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RE: K&B 61 w/pump starving!!! HELP - 12/10/2012 11:55 AM   
flyerdave


 

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Status: offline 		Thanks for all the help.I'm installing a non-pumped perry carb and a new backplate on the engine. I will also put the pressure tap back on the muffler. I think she should be a good engine and pull my big stik well.

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RE: K&B 61 w/pump starving!!! HELP - 12/10/2012 1:22 PM   
Sport_Pilot



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quote:

Choking was no problem as it pulled the fuel with authority but when I dropped the throttle to approx.


You don't need to choke pumped engines.  Just flip it a time or two before attaching the glow igniter.  If it doesn't pump fuel in then the diaphram is probably cracked.  If you have a pumper carb I would buy a seperate Perry Pump the ones they sell now.  That engine produced more top end power with the pump and carb.

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RE: K&B 61 w/pump starving!!! HELP - 12/10/2012 4:00 PM   
earlwb


 

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Status: online 		Well some of us have machined out the old pump inside of the backplate and epoxied in a new pump then. So one can fix them if they want to. Some guys even acquire a new backplate and drill a hole or holes in for the pump and then epoxy in a new pump, or use a quantity of silicon adhesive to glue it in with too.

With the older engines the pump diaphragms can get old, stiff and crack or something over time. Plus the two little one way valves could get stuck or jammed too. So it isn't surprising to see it happen with a older engine. Sometimes even the "New in Box" old pumps can be bad too, just from sitting on the shelf for many years.


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RE: K&B 61 w/pump starving!!! HELP - 1/5/2013 1:15 PM   
computermonkey


 

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Status: offline 		If you want to use the pump I believe Conley is still rebuilding them. http://www.perrypumps.com/
Never use any kind of petroleum oil when doing after run oil or trying to get them to work. The oil will deform the diagram. Use a synthetic oil like Mobil 1 5-20w. It only takes once to ruin the pump using petroleum oil in the engine.

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RE: K&B 61 w/pump starving!!! HELP - 1/22/2013 6:42 AM   
50+AirYears


 

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Status: offline 		Somebody gave me a pumped .61 without a carb, then wanted to sell me the carb for some ridiculous price, close to what a new engine would have cost. Happened to have an old OS carb with a .335 throat that mounted up perfectly. Following a hint by Lee, I just put a piece of fuel line from the pump inlet to outlet, and used muffler pressure. Turned a 11-8 wood prop with authority, and had a pretty decent idle as well. Even though the carb had a larger throat then the original suction carb, I had no trouble starting at all.

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RE: K&B 61 w/pump starving!!! HELP - 1/26/2013 11:07 AM   
turbo.gst


 

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Status: offline 		I once traded for a K&B 40 pumper. It had no instructions, so I had to play it by ear. The first thing I did was put a loop of fuel tubing on both sides of the pump with some fuel visibly in the tubing. Turning the crankshaft will cause movement if the pump is working. I then messed with the pump carb with very erratic results. I decided to put a .60 sized non-pumped carb ( a HB fit perfectly) on just to see. I set it without the pump and then hooked up the pump. I adjusted the pump to use the same needles setting as without. This was to get the pump close. Then I got out the tach and got greedy looking for peak. That little 40 acted more like a .45 and became one of my favorite engines of the day. I never had to mess with it after the original setup. I really like the way it performed. As a side note, C.F. Lee of RCM Engine Clinic fame, said using muffler pressure with the pump was discouraged as it messed up the built in regulator part of the Perry Carb/ Pump system.

If the pump doesn't work, you can send it to Conley as mentioned earlier in the thread.

If you want to use it without the pump, the K&B 61 makes a great lightweight 60 sized engine. It can't keep up with more modern piped setups, but it weighs in right about 14 oz's, which is less than some 46 sized engines. I really like it on those old 60 sized designs.

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