New trainer jet fully composite - would you buy one? (Full Version)

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i3dm -> New trainer jet fully composite - would you buy one? (12/10/2012 9:59 AM)

Hello guys,
A good friend who works in the israeli UAV industry for many years is considering manufacturing a trainer / sports jet in the area of the foxcub and jetmach, but fully composite.
What i'd like to know is weather there is a market share for such a bird that would cost about 1250$ for a kit, with all hardware, fully composite build and painted in the mould - what do you think?
Mind you this kit would be 100% made and shipped from Israel - built with latest composite technologies for a strong light structure - this would be a high quality kit!

Thanks for your replies.



BaldEagel -> RE: New trainer jet fully composite - would you buy one? (12/10/2012 10:32 AM)

I think the problem with composite is they are designed to fly not to be abused when landing and general hard wear and tear that an early turbine pilot is likely to give it, unless it can be made strong enough to withstand the abuse it will get, I think that's why the wooden Boomers have been so successful, easy to repair and quite hardy, I found the hardest thing to learn on a turbine is the different landing technique required, this inevitably lead to UC repairs in the early days, and composite does not lend itself to ease of repair, again this could be taken into consideration when designing and break out plates incorporated, just my opinion.

Mike



i3dm -> RE: New trainer jet fully composite - would you buy one? (12/10/2012 10:49 AM)

Thanks Mike. We would take it in consideration.
It is easier ti make a strudy gear mount on these kibd of hets rather than scale ones though, as these have fixed gear rather than retracts.



BaldEagel -> RE: New trainer jet fully composite - would you buy one? (12/10/2012 10:51 AM)

I think fixed gear is a shame on any jet, just looks all wrong especially at the cost point.

Mike



ticketec -> RE: New trainer jet fully composite - would you buy one? (12/10/2012 11:01 AM)

I know that you can compare them because it's not fully composite, but it's always going to be an uphill battle when you can buy a Falcon120 which is such a good trainer, yes requires few mod's but it get you up and flying and only sets you back $200-300. As a trainer, that's very cheap and if you splat one on landing, rip a wing apart, it's only a $200-300 and you have a whole new airframe again...

Scale models that fly well with a "80" size turbine, market WIDE open!

I guess what I'm suggesting is instead to trying to compete in a flooded sector of the market as every manufacture and his dog as a "trainer" type model in their lineup, work with the gaps in the market place!

Regards

Dave



i3dm -> RE: New trainer jet fully composite - would you buy one? (12/10/2012 11:01 AM)

There are high wing models - and usually have fixed gears for ease of operation and reliability.

thank you for your input, much appriciated.



tucson -> RE: New trainer jet fully composite - would you buy one? (12/10/2012 2:18 PM)


Except for the wings the boomerang Elan is composite. It has been a wonderful trainer for new jet pilots.

I personally like the idea of a composite aircraft of high quality construction at a reasonable price.

I believe there is a market for this type of aircraft trainer.

I had one years ago that lasted a long time until I finally sold it.

Stan



PaulD -> RE: New trainer jet fully composite - would you buy one? (12/10/2012 2:37 PM)

Why don't you partner with the Boomerang guys and do an all composite version? The boomerangs have a place in the market that is not easy to displace but the only complaint I hear from buyers is the price point. Maybe you can I beat the Chinese at manufacturing and offer some more consistent quality at the same time.

PaulD



Nhalyn -> RE: New trainer jet fully composite - would you buy one? (12/10/2012 2:48 PM)

A composite fuselage is a good idea on whatever plane it is (propelled or jet powered), for an all round flyer and even a trainer. This laid to the possibility of a good shaped fuselage, with smooth air inlet and engine exhaust.

But for wings and tails (vertical and horizontal), I'm not OK with composite structure, as it is too fragile for a beginner to small scratch, tranportation, and as said before, landing mistakes, with scratch on wing tips, landinge gear failure or gear support failure, that leads to wing sheet disaster...

A composite fuselage, even brocken in two parts, can always be repaired and fixed correctly. The repair process of a full composite wing and wing spar is way more complicated !



Dieselman1220 -> RE: New trainer jet fully composite - would you buy one? (12/10/2012 3:03 PM)

The trainer jet market seems to be a tough one, its really hard
To beat the tornado, modelbau seems to have that market pretty well tapped.
More options and more competition is always a great thing though and can benefit everyone.



i3dm -> RE: New trainer jet fully composite - would you buy one? (12/10/2012 3:12 PM)

we chose to opt for the trainer / sport type as the hardware is far easier to source than a full house scale jet with retracts \ brakes etc, and this of course helps keep the price very low for a high quality bird.

At this point i dont see my friend getting into making a full house jet with retracts\brakes and so on, or partner up with a large company such as boomerang jets for that matter.



gooseF22 -> RE: New trainer jet fully composite - would you buy one? (12/10/2012 3:36 PM)

I personally dont see much of a market for a fixed gear trainer.. there are already the shok jet, and little boomer, and such... personal opinion.. when I was looking for a trainer, i wanted retracts to learn how to fly complex aircraft since I skipped scale gassers..

I went with an Elan from a KEECAT.. I put retracts in the Keecat for that reason even though it was a prop job.. so I think whatever you do, retracts should be offered... my opinion only



jetpilot -> RE: New trainer jet fully composite - would you buy one? (12/10/2012 4:54 PM)

Your wanting to build an all composite jet with fixed gear? Isnt that an Oxymoron? I dont think that would sell at all. Definitely need retracts. If you had a nice looking sport jet, it might do well. Retract are going to run another $500 range. I would suggest finding a sport jet design with retracts. a nice all composite sport jet for 1250 would be very interesting.
Scott



STKNRUD -> RE: New trainer jet fully composite - would you buy one? (12/10/2012 4:59 PM)

As a suggestion, don't think of it as a "trainer". That will limit your thinking to the size of the market for the model. The Boomerang Elan is a good "trainer" but it is also very popular as a weekend, rough field, relaxing jet to fly on your 'off' days. If you think "trainer" market only, you will start to incorporate design elements (fixed gear, high wing, etc.) that will limit its desirability for other than beginners and limit your market.

George



BaldEagel -> RE: New trainer jet fully composite - would you buy one? (12/10/2012 5:04 PM)

If you start to expand your thinking on this it could end up being Spitfire equivalent i.e. in the UK everyone wants to start with one, if you have ever flown one you know what I mean OPPS.

Mike



i3dm -> RE: New trainer jet fully composite - would you buy one? (12/10/2012 5:04 PM)

how about something in the area of a composite turbinator (without gear) for 1200$ or so ?



i3dm -> RE: New trainer jet fully composite - would you buy one? (12/10/2012 5:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jetpilot

Your wanting to build an all composite jet with fixed gear? Isnt that an Oxymoron? I dont think that would sell at all. Definitely need retracts. If you had a nice looking sport jet, it might do well. Retract are going to run another $500 range. I would suggest finding a sport jet design with retracts. a nice all composite sport jet for 1250 would be very interesting.
Scott


where can we source a c9omplete set of proper gears (retracts, struts, wheels with brakes etc) for 500$ ?



jetpilot -> RE: New trainer jet fully composite - would you buy one? (12/10/2012 5:12 PM)

Give Todd a call. You wouldnt have to include them in your kit, just build a kit around a set and have the customer by their own.
http://dreamworksrc.com/catalog/basic-gear-combo-c-1_2_9.html



i3dm -> RE: New trainer jet fully composite - would you buy one? (12/10/2012 5:17 PM)

most of these are way aboe 500$:
http://dreamworksrc.com/catalog/complete-gear-combo-c-1_2_8.html



PHIL GREENO -> RE: New trainer jet fully composite - would you buy one? (12/10/2012 5:32 PM)

 PST already have the all composite Reaction and ReVision in their product line and I was speaking a few days ago with Alan Cardash (Mr Boomerang and freind for nearly 40 years) about his latest all composite new Boomerang model which is in its development stage at this moment,so watch this space.

Phil.



Robrow -> RE: New trainer jet fully composite - would you buy one? (12/10/2012 5:59 PM)

Never been a big fan of twin boomers, always seemed to be a big compromise just to accommodate the exhaust. I think there is a market for an all composite trainer if it's built to fly not crash. Get the looks, cost and flying characteristics right and I'm sure there would be a market.

Maybe you could look at something along the lines of a canard delta or a conventional Turbinator style model or even DV8R.

Rob.



jetpilot -> RE: New trainer jet fully composite - would you buy one? (12/10/2012 5:59 PM)

Those are complete sets with all the BS.
Build your jet around a generic set of retracts/gear. Robarts, Spring air, Prolinks or whatever. you can find some gear for $500. its not that hard. yes, of course you will need to buy valves, t fitings and all the other crap that can add up depending on what you buy. Your not worried about that. Just worry about delivering a very nice light all composite sport jet for 1250 that the customer can buy whatever gear he wishes if that may be 300-800$. I sent you a link to some very high end gear. Spring Air are much cheaper.
This is a very common practice these days and as you said your not in the business to manufactor and sell landing gear.
Find a set of gear that are mass produced and easy to find and build your jet around them.
I think its a really bad idea to build a nice jet for fixed gear.
Scott



BaldEagel -> RE: New trainer jet fully composite - would you buy one? (12/10/2012 6:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Robrow

Maybe you could look at something along the lines of a canard delta or a conventional Turbinator style model or even DV8R.

Rob.


CARF already make the composite Rookie and at under $1000 its a bargin, the bad reports about all stem from landing too fast.

Mike



Dr Honda -> RE: New trainer jet fully composite - would you buy one? (12/10/2012 6:39 PM)

As above... trainers should be cheap and durable. AND... since you can get a Falcon For $150, Tornado for $399, a Baby Boomer for $499, or a shock Jet for $499.... OR.... Modellbau will give you a free Saber Dog or Tornado if you buy a turbine from them... so, it would be hard to get someone to buy a $1200 airframe to crunch.

I'm not saying that they wouldn't sell... but the sticker shock to most new comers is already high.

A "Sport" composite airframe should have a target market of a second model. AND... as everyone else has said... it's going to need retracts. Don't reinvent the wheel here. Get some Robart's, and make the model work with them.



mirce -> RE: New trainer jet fully composite - would you buy one? (12/10/2012 8:49 PM)

I have some other idea, so this discussion and your opinions maybe can help me in my project.
On this site I write about my new project, 1/5 scale Galeb G2 (wingspan 2320mm).

My idea is to offer classic jet model in kit form, on acceptable price.
We made complete model in 3D program, and all parts are cut on laser cut machine, time for building is drastically lower, because everything fits perfectly and almost no extra work on first building stage.
I'm sure that everyone can made that model in two - three months. In that time is time for glassing, and painting.

Construction is very robust, very strong, especially the wings in LG area, just for case of bad landings. Model is big, but it will be light, so Jet Cat P 80, or similar turbine, will be enough.

Kit will have many parts which in some other firms you must extra buy and pay (plans, spars, gas tanks, flaps hinges, tip tanks, gear doors, canopy, lights...).
Right now I haven't accurate price, but it will be about like Ziroli Panther. Don't forget, F9F have 1830 mm wing span and Galeb is 2320 mm...

My goal is to made kit, that will save you at least 1200 - 1500$ in comparison to similar ARF models...
Yes you need to invest time to made it, but with good finish and details, Galeb G2 will not be different from more expensive (composite) jets...

I'm still working on model yet, but how it looks you can see here: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_10948682/mpage_2/tm.htm

Regards

Mirce



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