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SAM Warbird Racing Rules - 12/22/2012 6:11 AM

Trashman88

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I have uploaded the new revised version (01/01/13) of the SAM Racing Rules. Go to our website to view/download the new revised rules.

www.sacramento-rc-flyers.org

If you have any questions, please feel free to call me at (916) 705-7778 or email me at jrstuff88@gmail.com

Hope to see all of you in the 2013 Warbird Races.

JR

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RE: SAM Warbird Racing Rules - 1/13/2013 3:56 AM

carider67

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I have read the (new) rules twice now, and from what I see, I can run any two stroke that has a carb & exhaust, Idles for 10 seconds at under 4K, and has at least 400 square inches for a .40 sized plane. Anything else I should know before starting to build?

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RE: SAM Warbird Racing Rules - 1/13/2013 4:02 AM

speedracerntrixie

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Sounds like you have a good handle on it. The only thing I would add is that they are going to start looking at scale outline a little closer.

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RE: SAM Warbird Racing Rules - 1/13/2013 6:41 AM

Iron Dog

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quote:

ORIGINAL: carider67

I have read the (new) rules twice now, and from what I see, I can run any two stroke that has a carb & exhaust, Idles for 10 seconds at under 4K, and has at least 400 square inches for a .40 sized plane. Anything else I should know before starting to build?

Not knowing your building experience, and also knowing others are reading this that may have similar questions, and for some this may be their first attempt with this type of build, allow me to cover a couple areas that many might consider "common sense", yet are still occasionally overlooked:

While building (or pre-planning the build), I would also pay reasonably close attention to the third page of the rules in which the aircraft building and safety inspection criteria are detailed. We've had contestants arrive with EZ connectors, clevises at both ends (only a clevise at one end is okay), etc.; yet it is clearly stated that these attachment methods are not permitted. (I've even safety inspected and found contestants that showed up to race without bothering to glue their elevator or rudder. So obviously it pays to double-check everything before making the trip down.)

If you are planning on running in the Bronze class, many feel they can generally get away with a "stock" build. (I personally fiberglass the center section of all my wings as a minimum, no matter what what class I am building the plane for.) For Gold and Silver classes, you will absolutely need to ensure that both your wing and stab are reinforced appropriately to handle the high G-loads at those speeds. I can't think of a race that we haven't lost at least one plane due to builder error (wing or stab folding; underpowered servo/battery combination; flutter due to huge gaps or misalignments, improper control rods &/or bracing; covering or other pieces/parts departing the plane in-flight; etc.).

If my comments lead to any follow-on questions, I am happy to assist, further.

Ollie

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RE: SAM Warbird Racing Rules - 1/22/2013 5:24 AM

carider67

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I was more heading in the direction of reading the rules twice, and not finding any motors that were "disqualified" I have been racing Gold on and off since 1993, taking a break for a while but coming back once I found out I had cancer. You all know me, Chris Arens........ I have many motors & planes to choose from, and am building two YS115 powered Gold planes. But I wanted to mix it up a little, so I'm also bringing some two stroke planes - a YS60 piped MIG 3 (Silver?) and a 400 inch Nelson Powered, Supertiger carb'd, F.I.R.E Engined Mustang. Should be Gold, should idle for more than 10 seconds, so should be allowed to fly. Just don"t want any surprises when I show up. I've been testing planes since before Chrismas, so I should be ready this time! Here are a few pics of my "Practice" plane, a YS 110S Powered WM. It has a scale tail wheel, carbon fiber center section, and soon-to-get reinforced stab. I have run the course at above Silver speed, but why chance a stock tail?

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RE: SAM Warbird Racing Rules - 1/23/2013 12:25 AM

tdstaf

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quote:

ORIGINAL: carider67

I was more heading in the direction of reading the rules twice, and not finding any motors that were ''disqualified'' I have been racing Gold on and off since 1993, taking a break for a while but coming back once I found out I had cancer. You all know me, Chris Arens........ I have many motors & planes to choose from, and am building two YS115 powered Gold planes. But I wanted to mix it up a little, so I'm also bringing some two stroke planes - a YS60 piped MIG 3 (Silver?) and a 400 inch Nelson Powered, Supertiger carb'd, F.I.R.E Engined Mustang. Should be Gold, should idle for more than 10 seconds, so should be allowed to fly. Just don''t want any surprises when I show up. I've been testing planes since before Chrismas, so I should be ready this time! Here are a few pics of my ''Practice'' plane, a YS 110S Powered WM. It has a scale tail wheel, carbon fiber center section, and soon-to-get reinforced stab. I have run the course at above Silver speed, but why chance a stock tail?

Are there any more of those nelsons out there??

Chris I know the name but can't place the face..

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RE: SAM Warbird Racing Rules - 1/23/2013 3:59 AM

Iron Dog

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quote:

ORIGINAL: carider67

I was more heading in the direction of reading the rules twice, and not finding any motors that were "disqualified"

Sorry Chris, I didn't know "carider67" was you. Hopefully that information was still helpful.

I've been heavily involved in our racing events, in one capacity or another, since the SWRA days back in 1995. The only engines that I am aware of that were ever "disqualified" from SAM racing were those that did not have an operational carburetor, and therefore ran wide-open throttle until they eventually ran out of fuel. These were banned because of the inherent safety risks; and, the fact that waiting for the engine to empty the tank until it finally quits can significantly delay the start of the following heats (and rounds when thinking of the cumulative effect). Thus, the statement, "All engines must have an operational carburetor and demonstrate the ability to maintain an engine speed of 4000 RPM or less for a period of 10 seconds . . . " was added.

A properly carbureted engine that holds a safe idle AND meets the Engine Displacement/Wing Area Chart should not have any reason to be disqualified. As I know this is your main concern: the same holds true for 2-stroke engines, specifically; so long as they additionally meet the requirement of a muffler or tuned pipe.

Ollie

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RE: SAM Warbird Racing Rules - 1/23/2013 8:23 PM

D.E.

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"Wait until it runs out of fuel" ??? you mean nobody put a simple fuel shut off on the planes? wow, Standard practice in three pole pylon for the 30 years I have been messing with them.

Another good check is during tech have the guys demonstrate their fail safe set up...

DE

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RE: SAM Warbird Racing Rules - 1/24/2013 7:16 AM

Iron Dog

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DE, they probably did. All I know is that there were times we've waited until a pilot ran his fuel tank dry, to land. This may have just been a linkage that came loose, bad servo, etc. In my mind this happened more frequently all those years ago when a couple people would race those non-carbureted motors. Whether they didn't have a cut-off, the cut-off somehow malfunctioned, etc., or we later just got that much better at safety inspecting, I can't be certain. If I made an erroneous connection, then my apologies.

But bottom line: we can operate engines in a safer manner, and choose to do so. The rules reflect this policy statement, throughout . . . that safety is our primary concern.

Back to the central idea . . . if it is carbureted, holds the appropriate idle, and meets wing area requirements for its displacement . . . you're good to go.

If for any reason anyone still has specific concerns, you don't need to take chances. Please contact the Contest Director for the race you are planning on participating in. If you are building now, and are unaware of who that specific CD is, please feel free to contact me as I am offering do the legwork for you to assemble a quorum of other CDs and ensure you get a quick response on whether your particular configuration poses any concerns for any of our races within the series - before you either begin, or get too far into the build.

I am doing my best here guys to answer your questions and make it as clear and easy as I can. Hopefully I am succeeding, and ensuring that everyone feels comfortable. We have a blast with this, and want to get to know even more of the racers out there.

Ollie

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RE: SAM Warbird Racing Rules - 1/24/2013 7:46 PM

airraptor

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tdstaf

quote:

ORIGINAL: carider67

I was more heading in the direction of reading the rules twice, and not finding any motors that were ''disqualified'' I have been racing Gold on and off since 1993, taking a break for a while but coming back once I found out I had cancer. You all know me, Chris Arens........ I have many motors & planes to choose from, and am building two YS115 powered Gold planes. But I wanted to mix it up a little, so I'm also bringing some two stroke planes - a YS60 piped MIG 3 (Silver?) and a 400 inch Nelson Powered, Supertiger carb'd, F.I.R.E Engined Mustang. Should be Gold, should idle for more than 10 seconds, so should be allowed to fly. Just don''t want any surprises when I show up. I've been testing planes since before Chrismas, so I should be ready this time! Here are a few pics of my ''Practice'' plane, a YS 110S Powered WM. It has a scale tail wheel, carbon fiber center section, and soon-to-get reinforced stab. I have run the course at above Silver speed, but why chance a stock tail?

Are there any more of those nelsons out there??

Chris I know the name but can't place the face..

I have a nelson engine like this. and any of the MB or drake engines can be used like this also. The Jett Q-40 even has an option to run a carb. A properly set plane with one of these engines can run around 180-190 mph

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RE: SAM Warbird Racing Rules - 2/6/2013 12:01 AM

carider67

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Ollie,

Anything is helpful with my state of mind - the cancer has robbed me of a lot of short-term memory! Anyway, several things: Number 1 - I just dug up a bunch of pictures from the 1990's - SWRA Pics. Yes, real pics when you had to drop a roll of film off at Walgreens and 24 hrs was a "quick" turn around lol! I can scan them of people want to see them & can identify some of their old planes! About 20 different planes, and a LOT of Pilots, good pics of Jerry V too. Also many good "crash" pics!
Number 2: I have an 1990's just built from NIB kit of an EZ Models 30 Mustang - these were real popular back then, along with it's cousin the 30 sized Zero...... The Mustang was just over 400 Squares, the Zero just under - you had to add about an inch to each wingtip. Anyway, the Mustang fuse was some sort of plastic, holds up well. But the wing has a straight leading edge, no Mustang "flare". So what to do? It doesn't meet scale requirements as I read them, unless I call it an "H" model - then I have to extend the fin & rudder upwards about an inch, also the "H" had smaller wheels & spinner, both good things I suppose...... These EZ kits will only run silver at best without major mods, or they just explode into turn 1 if overpowered. I will post pics of the model & the real plane tonight - my Iphone is not co-operating with pics

. See you at the field!

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RE: SAM Warbird Racing Rules - 2/6/2013 7:47 AM

KazeRacing

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i remember putting a 110fz in a ez mustang and within 2 minutes it ripped the firewall out the front hahahaha i laugh now but i was pist when it happened.........david l

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RE: SAM Warbird Racing Rules - 2/6/2013 8:27 AM

Iron Dog

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Chris,

If you think of it as you're loading up for the April race (or later), bring the pics with you. I'm sure many of the guys would be interested. (I've got videos of many of the races going back to the late '90s that I think some might be interested in that bit of nostalgia too, but no real avenue to play them.)

Sounds like extending the fin and rudder would be the quickest and easiest mods to ensure no one would have a problem with it being a good fit within the intent of the event.

Do you think the EZ airframe could be reinforced easily enough to hold up to a YS.70?

. . . Less critical torque, weight, and vibration issues; and, Sergio runs this engine very successfully on his Silver-class, Kyosho Spitfire.
I'm thinking very seriously about ordering one for installation in my Silver-class Kyosho Bf109 so I can utilize the stock cowl, rather than fabricate a new one for the larger YS.91. I'd rather hurry to get something in the air quickly to practice with (and potentially serve as a back-up), so I can better use my limited build time to finish my other, more scale, custom-build projects to serve as my primary planes.

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RE: SAM Warbird Racing Rules - 2/6/2013 10:18 AM

carider67

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No. I have an YS63, too much beef up front on a hollow plastic fuse. Maybe on an .45 sized zero, I ran one of those pretty much stock with a YS91 back in the day. Just seems like they like two strokes better....... I do have a .45 sized zero coming in a few weeks, I'll have to see inside the fuse again - it's been 15 years! The craziest combo we ever saw was Fred Burgdorf - he had a Roots Blown OS120 Supercharged in a P51B EZ Model painted bright red - "The Believer". He ran this in the first season I raced, so I think 1993-1994ish. It sure blew everyone away - until the mighty YS's came out. I actually just bought that same motor last year to build a tribute model in honor of Fred - we lost him to cancer in 2010 I think. Having cancer myself, I want to get it done soon - I have an Eflite P51B - too small - and a P51B Top Flite Kit - too big. Looking for a B model in between, seems like scratch building time? Or convert a WM to a "B" model canopy - anyone do that yet? Up all night, Chris

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RE: SAM Warbird Racing Rules - 2/6/2013 2:54 PM

Jimmy Skids

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Chris,
Talk to JC. He and Woody have done B models.
Skids

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RE: SAM Warbird Racing Rules - 2/7/2013 3:09 AM

Iron Dog

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quote:

ORIGINAL: carider67

I have an Eflite P51B - too small - and a P51B Top Flite Kit - too big. Looking for a B model in between, seems like scratch building time? Or convert a WM to a "B" model canopy - anyone do that yet? Up all night, Chris

Chris,

I have a Great Planes P-51 kit that was the first kit I bought after soloing. I built the wing and started to frame the fuse, but never finished it. It has always been a plan of mine to finish it one day as an A-36 or P-51A. But I still have too many other projects to do that any time soon. However, I have a canopy for it. If you end up needing one, and can't get one elsewhere, I could always make a plug from it and pull another for you . . . if you end up converting a WM.

But, knowing you want to go FAST, I'd definitely talk to Jerry, as Jim recommends. He's building newer versions that are just the right size/design to be exactly what you are looking for.

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RE: SAM Warbird Racing Rules - 2/8/2013 1:15 AM

tdstaf

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quote:

ORIGINAL: carider67

No. I have an YS63, too much beef up front on a hollow plastic fuse. Maybe on an .45 sized zero, I ran one of those pretty much stock with a YS91 back in the day. Just seems like they like two strokes better....... I do have a .45 sized zero coming in a few weeks, I'll have to see inside the fuse again - it's been 15 years! The craziest combo we ever saw was Fred Burgdorf - he had a Roots Blown OS120 Supercharged in a P51B EZ Model painted bright red - ''The Believer''. He ran this in the first season I raced, so I think 1993-1994ish. It sure blew everyone away - until the mighty YS's came out. I actually just bought that same motor last year to build a tribute model in honor of Fred - we lost him to cancer in 2010 I think. Having cancer myself, I want to get it done soon - I have an Eflite P51B - too small - and a P51B Top Flite Kit - too big. Looking for a B model in between, seems like scratch building time? Or convert a WM to a ''B'' model canopy - anyone do that yet? Up all night, Chris

Chris,
I might have something that might work.

My a model mustang has 555 Sq's if you want to put a 120 in it.

Curently working on getting it in to CAD so I can laser cut parts..

Tim

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RE: SAM Warbird Racing Rules - 2/8/2013 4:12 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tdstaf

quote:

Chris,
I might have something that might work.

My a model mustang has 555 Sq's if you want to put a 120 in it.

Curently working on getting it in to CAD so I can laser cut parts..

Tim

WOW those look awesome! Love the B models!

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RE: SAM Warbird Racing Rules - 2/8/2013 5:24 AM

carider67

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Tim,

Mustangs look awesome! They are A Models, right? A36's to be exact? Would love to build one, let me know when it's available, or if you want to sell/trade one of them? just dreaming..... I do have a yellow box Top Flite "B" Model NIB, I was going to power it with my Beast from the East, the OS 120 Roots Blown Motor I have. I have a nice YS120AC I got from somebody at SAM, it would drop in nicely into one of your A models! Also, I have a copy of Solidworks if you need to borrow it.

Thanks,
Chris Arens

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RE: SAM Warbird Racing Rules - 2/8/2013 5:42 AM

carider67

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Here are some pics of my Mustang straight wing. I'm going to extend the rudder upwards to make it an "H", and run a smaller spinner - which means making a new front cowl. Anyone want to help with that? The H came in at the end of the war, so most are painted in National Guard colors, very boring and mostly gray.

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RE: SAM Warbird Racing Rules - 2/8/2013 7:50 AM

Iron Dog

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quote:

ORIGINAL: carider67

Here are some pics of my Mustang straight wing. I'm going to extend the rudder upwards to make it an "H", and run a smaller spinner - which means making a new front cowl. Anyone want to help with that? The H came in at the end of the war, so most are painted in National Guard colors, very boring and mostly gray.

How 'bout this one, Chris?

If you like it, do an image search of "44-64415", there's alot to be found on it.

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RE: SAM Warbird Racing Rules - 2/8/2013 7:56 AM

tdstaf

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quote:

ORIGINAL: carider67

Tim,

Mustangs look awesome! They are A Models, right? A36's to be exact? Would love to build one, let me know when it's available, or if you want to sell/trade one of them? just dreaming..... I do have a yellow box Top Flite ''B'' Model NIB, I was going to power it with my Beast from the East, the OS 120 Roots Blown Motor I have. I have a nice YS120AC I got from somebody at SAM, it would drop in nicely into one of your A models! Also, I have a copy of Solidworks if you need to borrow it.

Thanks,
Chris Arens

Thanks for the offer Chris,
But I have AutoCAD and Autodesk Inventor.
I have so many projects to finish. I'm just trying to prioritize them, the A model's were drawn by hand and formers have been scaned and need to be traced then scaled so I can finish the plans and laser sheets.

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RE: SAM Warbird Racing Rules - 2/8/2013 7:57 AM

tdstaf

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iron Dog

quote:

ORIGINAL: carider67

Here are some pics of my Mustang straight wing. I'm going to extend the rudder upwards to make it an ''H'', and run a smaller spinner - which means making a new front cowl. Anyone want to help with that? The H came in at the end of the war, so most are painted in National Guard colors, very boring and mostly gray.

How 'bout this one, Chris?

If you like it, do an image search of ''44-64415'', there's alot to be found on it.

I love those H models!!!

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