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Turbocharged nitro engines - 12/24/2012 1:09 AM   
phmaximus



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Status: offline 		Hey guys, let's get a thread going that will be for only constructive critism and ideas for making a turbocharged nitro engine.
It's a very sensitive subject, so please make sure ur posts are civil, and polite

Let's not debat if it's possible, let's talk about how u personally would go about doing it

< Message edited by phmaximus -- 12/24/2012 6:37 AM >


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RE: Turbocharged nitro engines - 12/24/2012 1:17 AM   
cumminspower5.9



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Status: offline 		And if you have already done it, and whether you have failed or succeeded and how come. I gotta admit, I saw the title of this post and thought "oh boy here we go". But hopefully out of this thread, we can get some good feedback without the nonsense. I'll also add that to keep things civil so this doesn't get closed down, we don't talk down on others ideas or attack them.

To input my opinion on the subject, I will say that it can be done, just not sure how just because of the size of the combustion chamber and the tuning that would have to be done to get optimal performance. I'm not too knowledgeable in turbocharging such small engines.


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RE: Turbocharged nitro engines - 12/24/2012 1:26 AM   
phmaximus



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Status: offline 		Awsome comments, fingers crossed...

Honestly I would be happy with a running turbo motor... Even if it had tuning problems...

When I get on my computer I'll post up some cool things I've found, and some ideas

Like, 2 of these baby's with a draw through carby, and Y adapters... Twin turbo? It would be like the 80's all over again





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RE: Turbocharged nitro engines - 12/24/2012 1:50 AM   
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Status: offline 		Only way I see it being able to be done is if there was some sort of fuel injector that had an air sensor that would increase the fuel mixture when the airflow increases as it spins up and pushes more air in to keep the tune proper.
The ones available for RC's I see as either bogging the engine out if you try and tune for the high end, or if you tune it so it idles, and run will lean out and damage the engine at the high end.
But that is just my thoughts on the principals of it as done with unmodified engines. Now if you somehow modify the ports or something then maybe it could be done

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RE: Turbocharged nitro engines - 12/24/2012 3:52 AM   
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Status: offline 		Maybe I'm stating the obvious but, why hasn't anyone mentioned 4-stroke nitro engines?  It seems in my naive mind that those are prime candidates.  I like your thoughts, Syco, I too believe that the mixture will have to adjust on the fly depending on how much boost is coming off the turbos.  Plus, should there be a tiny waste-gate too?


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RE: Turbocharged nitro engines - 12/24/2012 5:26 AM   
cumminspower5.9



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Status: offline 		Yep, a small wastegate and soomethign to increase the fuel input according to the turbo psi. I think that's the biggest brain teaser for turboing these small 2 stroke nitro engines. Once those are figures out, I can see some performance gains coming on!


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RE: Turbocharged nitro engines - 12/24/2012 6:20 AM   
phmaximus



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quote:

ORIGINAL: SyCo_VeNoM

Only way I see it being able to be done is if there was some sort of fuel injector that had an air sensor that would increase the fuel mixture when the airflow increases as it spins up and pushes more air in to keep the tune proper.
The ones available for RC's I see as either bogging the engine out if you try and tune for the high end, or if you tune it so it idles, and run will lean out and damage the engine at the high end.
But that is just my thoughts on the principals of it as done with unmodified engines. Now if you somehow modify the ports or something then maybe it could be done


ahhh i thought of something for that, a pressure sensor, connected to a "brain" that controls a servo for the HSN?

or wonder if its possible to have a 2nd carby that opens up on boost??? god knows how it would be done? pressure diaphragm and linkages?


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RE: Turbocharged nitro engines - 12/24/2012 6:34 AM   
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Status: offline 		hey or even have a 3rd ch controlling a second carby thats set for max boost.

u could accelerate and when it starts to bog down hit the 3ch switch?


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RE: Turbocharged nitro engines - 12/24/2012 6:42 AM   
phmaximus



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Status: offline 		check this out, its 2 turbo keyrings connected together






here is a supercharged intercooled car



and a nitro motor with a BOV lol




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RE: Turbocharged nitro engines - 12/24/2012 9:07 AM   
Anthoop



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Status: offline 		We went through this (again) not so long ago.
Today my feeling is-
Why would you want to pressure charge a nitro when there are other well proven ways of improving a 2 stroke, such as exhaust power valves or more cylinders or variable length exhausts.
Let alone we have engines that are powerful enough already to overpower a car on a track or go 120 MPH.

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RE: Turbocharged nitro engines - 12/24/2012 11:25 AM   
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Status: offline 		for whats it worth the best way to see some performance improvement would be to use a slow engine to begin with. as trying to make a really fast car/engine even faster might be a bit boring.

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RE: Turbocharged nitro engines - 12/24/2012 12:19 PM   
phmaximus



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthoop

We went through this (again) not so long ago.
Today my feeling is-
Why would you want to pressure charge a nitro when there are other well proven ways of improving a 2 stroke, such as exhaust power valves or more cylinders or variable length exhausts.
Let alone we have engines that are powerful enough already to overpower a car on a track or go 120 MPH.




quote:

ORIGINAL: phmaximus

Hey guys, let's get a thread going that will be for only constructive critism and ideas for making a turbocharged nitro engine.
It's a very sensitive subject, so please make sure ur posts are civil, and polite

Let's not debat if it's possible, let's talk about how u personally would go about doing it




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RE: Turbocharged nitro engines - 12/24/2012 12:23 PM   
BKoz559



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Status: offline 		 Anything wortb doing is worth overdoing. More cylinders may not always fit. Plus,it's probably more about conquering the challenge rather than fulfilling a need.

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RE: Turbocharged nitro engines - 12/24/2012 1:02 PM   
Anthoop



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quote:

ORIGINAL: phmaximus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthoop

We went through this (again) not so long ago.
Today my feeling is-
Why would you want to pressure charge a nitro when there are other well proven ways of improving a 2 stroke, such as exhaust power valves or more cylinders or variable length exhausts.
Let alone we have engines that are powerful enough already to overpower a car on a track or go 120 MPH.




quote:

ORIGINAL: phmaximus

Hey guys, let's get a thread going that will be for only constructive critism and ideas for making a turbocharged nitro engine.
It's a very sensitive subject, so please make sure ur posts are civil, and polite

Let's not debat if it's possible, let's talk about how u personally would go about doing it



Oh, I see. It is just a dream thread.
Ok so I would have both a turbo charger and a supercharger and fuel injection with an ECU and all of the required sensors.

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RE: Turbocharged nitro engines - 12/24/2012 1:34 PM   
phmaximus



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Hey fuel injection is nice but I'd rather be blown


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RE: Turbocharged nitro engines - 12/24/2012 2:08 PM   
The Mad Modder



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quote:

ORIGINAL: BKoz559

Maybe I'm stating the obvious but, why hasn't anyone mentioned 4-stroke nitro engines?  It seems in my naive mind that those are prime candidates.  I like your thoughts, Syco, I too believe that the mixture will have to adjust on the fly depending on how much boost is coming off the turbos.  Plus, should there be a tiny waste-gate too?


+1, since getting a 2 stroke to work with a turbo would require major engine modification, why not try it with a 4 stroke nitro? I'm not sure if it'd need some adapting at the output shaft(since all 4 strokes I know of are plane engines), but it can't be any harder than trying to fit valves to a 2 stroke.

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RE: Turbocharged nitro engines - 12/24/2012 2:52 PM   
supertib


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SyCo_VeNoM

Only way I see it being able to be done is if there was some sort of fuel injector that had an air sensor that would increase the fuel mixture when the airflow increases as it spins up and pushes more air in to keep the tune proper.
The ones available for RC's I see as either bogging the engine out if you try and tune for the high end, or if you tune it so it idles, and run will lean out and damage the engine at the high end.
But that is just my thoughts on the principals of it as done with unmodified engines. Now if you somehow modify the ports or something then maybe it could be done



A carb is just like a airbrush...increase the airflow thru it and it will increase the volume of fuel is sprays.....a special injector is not needed here, the carb on its own works quite fine for handling "boost "....... If we double the volume of air passing thru the carb is will spray out double the volume of fuel it normally would............ this is fact of how a carb works........

there is nothing on the market that is a real boost adder...

in my shop I will setup a plenum box that will encase the entire carb..it will simulate running the engine is a very dense atmosphere.....


And no the engine does not need major modifications for boost to work.............. timing profiles maybe can be tweaked to maximize effectiveness....but not needed at all


In the end all 2 strokes can be boosted......... the trick is actually making a way to produce boost......... I can easily make a setup in my shop using my air compressor a plenum and a pressure regulator..... But that only shows proof of concept.....that indeed a small engine like this can be boosted.........The power of the engine will increase proportionately to the increase of the pressure in the plenum..........



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RE: Turbocharged nitro engines - 12/24/2012 2:59 PM   
BKoz559



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Status: offline 		Yes! As long as modifications are necessary it would be more practical to machine the output shaft to fit a clutch.  I'm sure someone has figured out how to put one of those OS Surpass engines into a surface vehicle.  The other issue to contend with is still how to manage fuel rates.

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RE: Turbocharged nitro engines - 12/24/2012 3:47 PM   
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Status: offline 		An aircraft engine would need a fan or something for cooling as they don't have the large cooling heads on them.
Also, some new gearing would be needed...
.72 4 stroke engine - about 10,000
.32 2 stroke - about 30,000

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RE: Turbocharged nitro engines - 12/24/2012 4:31 PM   
Steve108



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Status: offline 		If I was going to attempt this, I would start with a fuel injected 4 stroke, like the fs-91fi. Add a manifold pressure sensor and build a custom fuel injection controller, maybe with an arduino, although I don't know if they are fast enough. Write up some fuel maps and assuming you could build a turbocharger that will hold up I think you just have a tuning issue. Maybe find a way to lower the compression too.

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RE: Turbocharged nitro engines - 12/24/2012 4:45 PM   
Steve108



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Status: offline 		Thinking a bit more about it you could add a thicker head gasket and then make some longer pushrods. This engine really would be a great start, you get a built in rpm sensor, egt or cht sensor, and a throttle body injection system. Throttle position is very easy to read with a Y-harness. A good manifold pressure sensor would be the MPX4250AP, will measure 0 to 36 psi, which at sea level is typically around 21 psi of boost - way more that we need. It's really easy to read with any microcontroller with an ADC.

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RE: Turbocharged nitro engines - 12/24/2012 7:44 PM   
Anthoop



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A carb is just like a airbrush...increase the airflow thru it and it will increase the volume of fuel is sprays.....a special injector is not needed here, the carb on its own works quite fine for handling ''boost ''....... If we double the volume of air passing thru the carb is will spray out double the volume of fuel it normally would............ this is fact of how a carb works........

Not really..no. The size of the jet will determine how much fuel/paint it can pass, the airflow provides the atomisation. More airflow requires more fuel/paint.

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RE: Turbocharged nitro engines - 12/24/2012 8:02 PM   
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Status: offline 		The whole idea of turbocharging/supercharging an engine is to pack in more air into the cylinder. (simple as that, no more no less) More air means you can introduce more fuel equals more power. Doesn't matter if it's just air, or an air/fuel mixture, just get more of it in there than what you can do under normally aspirated conditions. The loop scavaged 2 stroke engines that we associate with our hobbies do not respond well to supercharging/turbocharging because there is no effective way to control the intake/exhaust timing event. Take a look at it... the only time the combustion chamber is sealed or blocked off is when the piston seals the exhaust port. Blow all the air into you want, but you've already lost it out the exhaust before the piston "captured" it. Remember also that the intake and the pressurized air you're trying to get in that cylinder was also cut off before the the exhaust was closed, further reducing it's effectivness...ie, you shut it off before it even had a chance to get in there! The guy with the turbo heli might be making boost at the intake manifold, but is he getting it in the cylinder where it might do some good? Maybe a little, but I doubt it's amounting to much. More than likely just blowing more fuel/air out the tailpipe. Yes, there are 2 stroke engines that use turbocharging, I've worked with them for years, names like Cooper Bessemer, Fairbanks Morse, EMD, Detroit diesel. Most just use a turbo or supercharger to introduce a cleaner charge of air for the next power cycle. EMD and DD are uniflow 2 strokes. You have an exhaust valve in which allows one to control the timing more effectively and a blower to scavenge the cylinder.

Any four cycle engine is more conducive to turbo/supercharging, basically because you have a better method to control the timing events. Ys engines has done it for years using crankcase pressure and few valves to manage it. I realize it doesn't look all that "trick", but speaking from experience it defiantly works. Ask anyone that's used one.

Check it out....

http://www.qmfc.org/school/ys.htm

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RE: Turbocharged nitro engines - 12/24/2012 8:10 PM   
Steve108



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Status: offline 		^^ yep, I second that, no benefit on a conventional rc 2 stroke. YS engines are sweet ^^

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RE: Turbocharged nitro engines - 12/24/2012 8:13 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthoop

quote:

ORIGINAL: supertib
A carb is just like a airbrush...increase the airflow thru it and it will increase the volume of fuel is sprays.....a special injector is not needed here, the carb on its own works quite fine for handling ''boost ''....... If we double the volume of air passing thru the carb is will spray out double the volume of fuel it normally would............ this is fact of how a carb works........

Not really..no. The size of the jet will determine how much fuel/paint it can pass, the airflow provides the atomisation. More airflow requires more fuel/paint.



Nope Supertib is right, read this. http://www.nitrorc.com/articles/carb/default.asp

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