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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/1/2013 12:36 AM

chuckk2

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The last time around, (decades ago) I'd spend months building kits, and hoped that they would stay together. The most successful model plane was a control line Ringmaster, with a .35 glo. engine.
Too many problems with bad balsa in the kits, poor die cut parts, etc. Build to fly times were very lopsided.

I'd rather fly than build, so ARFs are very attractive. It's also difficult to build an finish a model for the same or less than the cost of a comparable ARF. As it is, I spend a fair amount of time "tweaking" ARFs during the assembly process, even the supposedly better ones.

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/1/2013 12:46 AM

eddieC

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Sensei, v nice 540. SAT, love it. Went to FlightSafety there for Merlin training many years ago. Always enjoy going back. I read your 260 build thread, great job!

I modded a Goldberg Cub years ago with two pilot heads that turn when the rudder moves. Always catches someones eye. Easy to do as you build it.

I agree on the folks who don't realize how many planes they see at the field are kits, and it's a revelation to them. Many of the new pilots only know ARFs and their flight sim, which is fine but in many cases they aren't aware that kits were the only way for decades, and ARFs are the new thing.

ARFs have really improved since they first came out. I had an early Pilot Extra 300 that was considered a nice ARF in the early 90's. it took nearly as long to build as a kit would have, mainly due to re-gluing, aligning and reinforcing where needed. It flew great after all the work. It was a 'hot glue wonder' tho, and I used 2 bottles of foam-safe CA making it right.

We have a club member who has a bit more enthusiasm than skill, and he's the poster boy for ARF owners. Flies at the park or the club field, and generally totals one a month. He has a blast, and ARFs are plentiful, quick and cheap. We do have difficulty keeping up with his fleet, the turnover is quite high lol.

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/1/2013 1:11 AM

sensei

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eddieC

Sensei, v nice 540. SAT, love it. Went to FlightSafety there for Merlin training many years ago. Always enjoy going back. I read your 260 build thread, great job!

I modded a Goldberg Cub years ago with two pilot heads that turn when the rudder moves. Always catches someones eye. Easy to do as you build it.
I agree on the folks who don't realize how many planes they see at the field are kits, and it's a revelation to them. Many of the new pilots only know ARFs and their flight sim, which is fine but in many cases they aren't aware that kits were the only way for decades, and ARFs are the new thing.

ARFs have really improved since they first came out. I had an early Pilot Extra 300 that was considered a nice ARF in the early 90's. it took nearly as long to build as a kit would have, mainly due to re-gluing, aligning and reinforcing where needed. It flew great after all the work. It was a 'hot glue wonder' tho, and I used 2 bottles of foam-safe CA making it right.

We have a club member who has a bit more enthusiasm than skill, and he's the poster boy for ARF owners. Flies at the park or the club field, and generally totals one a month. He has a blast, and ARFs are plentiful, quick and cheap. We do have difficulty keeping up with his fleet, the turnover is quite high lol.

Thank you for the kind words.

Bob

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/1/2013 3:43 AM

ovationdave

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eddieC

We have a club member who has a bit more enthusiasm than skill, and he's the poster boy for ARF owners. Flies at the park or the club field, and generally totals one a month. He has a blast, and ARFs are plentiful, quick and cheap. We do have difficulty keeping up with his fleet, the turnover is quite high lol.

Doesn't every club have one (or more) of these guys? I know that there are people that fly at our club that initiates an immediate reaction of "heads-up!". ARF's hold a special place in the hearts of these pilots.......but hey, its all part of the fun, as long as nobody looses an eye.

'-)

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/1/2013 3:45 AM

sensei

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Sometimes ARFs can be more work than building a kit, I guess it is all in what you are going after. Here is how my last ARF went together.

http://www.flyingiants.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36868

Bob

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/1/2013 3:48 AM

eddieC

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Dave,

True dat! This guy has more fun than any 3 members, and we get to see & tinker with some of the latest ARFs. He's gotten quite good at dead-stick landings, as he runs out of fuel about 50% of his flights. This is also the primary reason for the high turnover.

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/1/2013 4:38 AM

GallopingGhostler

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quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckk2 The last time around, (decades ago) I'd spend months building kits, and hoped that they would stay together. The most successful model plane was a control line Ringmaster, with a .35 glo. engine.

Too many problems with bad balsa in the kits, poor die cut parts, etc. Build to fly times were very lopsided.

Oh, you must mean the die crunched balsa that came with one of the Sterling kits because of too light a wood or overused die. I'd put water and my sealing iron to restore the crunch, retrim with an Exacto knife, then Ambroid (later CA) the crunch, or make a new part using the crunched as a pattern.

quote:

I'd rather fly than build, so ARFs are very attractive. It's also difficult to build an finish a model for the same or less than the cost of a comparable ARF. As it is, I spend a fair amount of time ''tweaking'' ARFs during the assembly process, even the supposedly better ones.

What you state has some truth as I've spoken with club members who used to build. It's gotten where by the time one adds the fuel tank, plumbing, pushrods, covering and trimming materials, the cost of building exceeds the cost of ARF's.

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/1/2013 6:21 AM

combatpigg

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GallopingGhostler
What you state has some truth as I've spoken with club members who used to build. It's gotten where by the time one adds the fuel tank, plumbing, pushrods, covering and trimming materials, the cost of building exceeds the cost of ARF's.

I recycle hardware from builds that were done over 20 years ago. Fuel tanks and all.
Some day when I'm too old to do this stuff, I will be happy to look back and reflect on what I was able to acheive with my own 2 hands and imagination more than what I was only able to accomplish with my credit card.

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/1/2013 7:34 PM

warbird addict

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Well to put it in a nut shell Arf's fill a void that brings alot more people into this hobby of ours that wouldn't otherwise be here, some like myself started out building kits and later went to the Arf's purely due to time constraints and the fact that Arf's better met our needs and the purpose for which we became involved in this hobby to begin with and that is to learn how to fly and do it as often as possible as Flying is what we enjoy PERIOD.
This does not in any way shape or form imply that one is lazy or whatever else , nor does it imply that if you buy an Arf that it will surely fall out of the sky because it's held together with nothing more than spit and a prayer thats just ridiculous, there have been some pretty poor
Arf offerings and those companies usually don't last long as the market is VERY competitive, MOST Arf companies are very receptive to input from those of us who buy them to make them better based on our experience with them and make great effort to correct whatever issues we might bring up with them.
As far as the heartburn that exists between ARF VS kit built the reason for that is EVERYBODY is equally passionate about their particular avenue of approach to this hobby
and that heartburn rears it's ugly head when either side sets out to denigrate the others choice for choosing their particular approach.
It's all good with me I love them all, if it fly's it's good by me, however never in any case will I lay down and submit to criticism and ridicule for my particular approach to MY hobby
I've had some pretty harsh things to say to those whom i've felt have attempted do just that and to those I would say we'll just have to agree to disagree.
My vision of this hobby is one of inclusion and comraderie no matter whether you built it or assembled it as they are all equal in my book as each has it's own advantages and disadvantages.
Promotion of this hobby starts and ends with each and every INDIVIDUAL involved in it and should be viewed as greater than oneself if it is ever to survive.
At our club anyone who conducts themselves by denigrating someone else and cutting them down and taking a dump in their ear for not doing things MY way will be asked to leave as it not conducive to the clubs mission statement which is positive reinforcement, inclusion and overall CLUB MEMBERSHIP .
This IS a HOBBY lets leave labels and personal attacks out of it as ones individual approach to fulfill THEIR hobby has absolutely no personal reflection on them at all nor does it imply that whatever they choose to fly is junk just because it does not fall in line with somebody elses way of doing things.
The Bottom line is Arf's are here because there was an OVERWHELMING demand for them and thats just how it is, YES I LIKE TO BUILD TOO but Arf's have done 1000 times more to promote this hobby than kits ever thought of doing , fact of life supply will always rise to the demand as there's MONEY it for them to do so.
I enjoy every aspect of this hobby except the division and exclusion some would try to impose on it, at that point it no longer holds any appeal to anyone as who REALLY wants to spend their valued time off hanging around with a bunch of jerks who continually spend their time cutting them down all day for flying an Arf or having built it from a kit, if thats all this hobby has become for you is putting yourself on a pedestal by alienating everyone else around you, you've been in it too long or lost sight of why you got into it in the first place and should find another more fulfilling hobby that has something positive to offer you, hobbies are supposed to be fun and something you look forward to doing no matter what approach you might take to accomplish the end result

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/1/2013 7:48 PM

GallopingGhostler

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quote:

ORIGINAL: combatpigg I recycle hardware from builds that were done over 20 years ago. Fuel tanks and all.
Some day when I'm too old to do this stuff, I will be happy to look back and reflect on what I was able to achieve with my own 2 hands and imagination more than what I was only able to accomplish with my credit card.

One of the older flyers uses electric power and brings a stash of blue foam planes out to the field. I've got an old tackle box that has spare and salvaged parts from both CL and RC planes used first before buying new. So to have fun, one doesn't need to have an investment portfolio.

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/1/2013 7:56 PM

Pete Lane

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+ 1000

Pete Lane

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/1/2013 9:55 PM

H5606

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I wish to submit an alternative thought on the subject. Please forgive me if someone else already mentioned something similar. I became an ARF addict and its bad - very bad.

I prefer to think of myself as someone that can construct something and enjoy the satisfaction of admiring my own work even if someone else doesn't acknowledge it. I got caught up in this ARF craze some years ago and it turned into an addiction. When I would be building something, I'd see an ad in a model magazine for something similar that should take less time to complete and get me flying sooner. I figured I could assemble the ARF while continuing the original project that could be constructed and finished to my standards. Then I'd see another I'd have to have, then another, and another. You get the idea... As it turns out nothing gets done in the end as it takes longer to sort through problems or changes that I'd want to make in assembling these ARFs. Ultimately, I'd lose interest and submit to lazy excuses to watch TV, use the internet, or do other mundane tasks like mow the lawn, pull weeds, or rake leaves and spikey balls.

After a while of buying ARFs, instant gratification doesn't work anymore either so I stopped buying them and resorted to yanking as many ARFs as I could off the shelves onto the floor of my basement and pulling the box tops off. Then, I'd take all my clothes off, inhale the different smells coming from the open boxes and prance around naked throughout the room. Just like a drug, it takes more and more to achieve the initial "high" which we all know never happens again. Its really bad if you trip and fall; ask me how I know... Its not the damage to all the airplane parts that's so bad anymore as explaining to the wife what that terrible crunch! was.

What I'm trying to say here is ARFs did not help me get anything in the air quicker and I can probably hold interest through a kit, plans, or scratch built project to completion more readily than trying to assemble an ARF unless its a Parkzone Foamy or equivalent.

< Message edited by H5606 -- 1/1/2013 10:23 PM >

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/1/2013 10:40 PM

Jaybird

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Wouldn't a better question be...."Why would a person WANT to build their own airplane?" Then People that do can explain what they do and how they learn things and become creative starting with a box of sticks or even just a piece of paper. Why do ARFs even have to be discussed. If you want people to try to do things a different way you have to offer them insight and guidance and knowledge that there are different ways and then let them decide if they want to try.

Jaybird

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/1/2013 11:58 PM

Stickbuilder

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How did this thread go so far off topic? It is about why people don't build kits any more, not why do people assemble ARF's.

Bill, Waco Brother #1

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/2/2013 12:06 AM

GallopingGhostler

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder How did this thread go so far off topic? It is about why people don't build kits any more, not why do people assemble ARF's.

How so? If they are assembling ARF's, they are not building kits.

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/2/2013 12:21 AM

eddieC

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H5606, you need help, dude.

I enjoy kits because I can 'bash' them (modify, to you ARFers)

and improve/personalize as I go. Plus, I like the sense of accomplishment and having something unique at the field. No two kits look alike. Always have a laugh when someone asks, 'What ARF is that?' .

I was an early adopter with 2.4 and had the module plugged in and was taxiing my plane out when another member saw my collapsed 72mhz antenna and warned me to extend it. I turned and pointed to the small 2.4 antenna he couldn't see. We still laugh about it.

I still build the occasional ARF. I just wash my hands a lot afterwards.

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/2/2013 1:49 AM

init4fun

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In all my years of flying I've never heard anyone ask "Whose ARF is that ?" . Not once .

Many times , I HAVE heard "Who sells that ?" Or "What plane is that ?" , ,

I guess it's good that the people I fly with don't see the first thing to be judged is how the plane came to be ,

Just that it is , , and they would like to have one .

Everything else is nothing more than macho chest thumping BS .

Anyone grown any good contest grade balsa lately ?

........

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/2/2013 2:04 AM

GallopingGhostler

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eddieC I enjoy kits because I can 'bash' them (modify, to you ARFers) and improve/personalize as I go. Plus, I like the sense of accomplishment and having something unique at the field.

But eddieC, can't one bash an ARF (modify to us kit builders)

and improve/personalize them as one goes? Plus, isn't there a sense of accomplishment when one has a unique (bashed) ARF at the field? Inquiring minds want to know.

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/2/2013 2:32 AM 1 votes

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quote:

ORIGINAL: init4fun

Anyone grown any good contest grade balsa lately ?

........

I gather that much of the balsa today is shipped to China where some of it is made into ARFs while the rest is made into windmill blades which are sent to California and used to kill eagles.

Jess

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/2/2013 2:49 AM

HighPlains

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quote:

Always have a laugh when someone asks, 'What ARF is that?'

quote:

In all my years of flying I've never heard anyone ask "Whose ARF is that ?" . Not once .

Yeah, I have been asked what ARF is that. Told them it was scratch built, so they asked what kit was it? Feeling like I had made some progress, I explained that it was not a kit, it was scratch built. So they asked where to get the plans and I told them that I designed it, cut the cores, bent the landing gear, cut out all the parts and built it.

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/2/2013 4:01 AM

GallopingGhostler

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HighPlains Yeah, I have been asked what ARF is that. Told them it was scratch built, so they asked what kit was it? Feeling like I had made some progress, I explained that it was not a kit, it was scratch built. So they asked where to get the plans and I told them that I designed it, cut the cores, bent the landing gear, cut out all the parts and built it.

Then you are really resourceful, HighPlains. Given that building wings are time consuming, I've been thinking about building my own wing core thermal wire cutter. I'm not quite at the point to create my own plans although I have an older full featured CAD program. Learned to scale PDF plans using a Linux pdfposter program to make tile prints for my HP laserjet. I'm just curious, what plane was it that onlookers commented as ARF?

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/2/2013 4:37 AM

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quote:

In all my years of flying I've never heard anyone ask "Whose ARF is that ?" . Not once .

So, since it never happened to you, it can't have happened? Lol. I've had one club member ask me that on 2 occasions, and on one it WAS an ARF. Most of our members are ARFers, maybe 20% have built a kit. Many assume that most everything is an ARF. It doesn't help that the big LHS we frequent has 95% ARFs, that's all that's available anymore.

quote:

Plus, isn't there a sense of accomplishment when one has a unique (bashed) ARF at the field?

Sure. Right after I wash my hands.

Every built-up film-covered ARF I've had required fairly extensive improvements, not what I'd call bashing.

The Ultra-Stick 40 ARF had some bad traits when it came out - the wing would depart at inopportune moments or, if you landed, the gear would fold aft. I modded mine with better rear attach wing block and stronger gear blocks. My most recent one had the engine and firewall detach in a minor off-field landing when the engine quit. We found evidence of glue on just one side of the firewall, the other three had no glue evident. All that held the firewall was marginal glue and the covering. It has a new, thicker marine ply firewall held in by dowels and thicker triangle stock using Gorilla urethane. No oddball 1" hole in the firewall either. I like Sticks, but the H9 version is not up to their standards.

As for modding ARFs - why? By the time one is done re-engineering it, one just wants to get done and fly. I routinely iron all seams and edges during the build, as that's another weak point.

quote:

I gather that much of the balsa today is shipped to China where some of it is made into ARFs while the rest is made into windmill blades which are sent to California and used to kill eagles.

Jess, that's friggin' hilarious !

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/2/2013 2:01 PM

GerKonig

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quote:

ORIGINAL: H5606

I wish to submit an alternative thought on the subject. Please forgive me if someone else already mentioned something similar. I became an ARF addict and its bad - very bad.

I prefer to think of myself as someone that can construct something and enjoy the satisfaction of admiring my own work even if someone else doesn't acknowledge it. I got caught up in this ARF craze some years ago and it turned into an addiction. When I would be building something, I'd see an ad in a model magazine for something similar that should take less time to complete and get me flying sooner. I figured I could assemble the ARF while continuing the original project that could be constructed and finished to my standards. Then I'd see another I'd have to have, then another, and another. You get the idea... As it turns out nothing gets done in the end as it takes longer to sort through problems or changes that I'd want to make in assembling these ARFs. Ultimately, I'd lose interest and submit to lazy excuses to watch TV, use the internet, or do other mundane tasks like mow the lawn, pull weeds, or rake leaves and spikey balls.

After a while of buying ARFs, instant gratification doesn't work anymore either so I stopped buying them and resorted to yanking as many ARFs as I could off the shelves onto the floor of my basement and pulling the box tops off. Then, I'd take all my clothes off, inhale the different smells coming from the open boxes and prance around naked throughout the room. Just like a drug, it takes more and more to achieve the initial ''high'' which we all know never happens again. Its really bad if you trip and fall; ask me how I know... Its not the damage to all the airplane parts that's so bad anymore as explaining to the wife what that terrible crunch! was.

What I'm trying to say here is ARFs did not help me get anything in the air quicker and I can probably hold interest through a kit, plans, or scratch built project to completion more readily than trying to assemble an ARF unless its a Parkzone Foamy or equivalent.

I think the habit on inhaling stuff (glue maybe?) had a huge effect on yer brain:-)

Gerry

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/2/2013 4:09 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jessiej

quote:

ORIGINAL: init4fun

Anyone grown any good contest grade balsa lately ?

........

I gather that much of the balsa today is shipped to China where some of it is made into ARFs while the rest is made into windmill blades which are sent to California and used to kill eagles.

Jess

Oh Yea , We got our share of Eagle killin windmills here too . They build em right off the coast , so they likely get more seagulls than Eagles , though .....

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/2/2013 4:39 PM

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Joined: 4/22/2005
Last Login: 5/24/2013
From: Linden, MI, USA
Status: offline

I have absolutely been asked "What ARF is that?". Mostly by the younger crowd at the field or spectators that have not taken the leap into the hobby yet. Most of the old-timers know a kit when they see it, or maybe they are just familiar enough with the ARF market that they know they don't recognize it as any pre-packaged plane. I can usually spot an arf just from the trim scheme and being familiar with the adds in the R/C mags. It doesn't really matter, but I have certainly been asked the question. I don't see making this claim as "macho chest thumping BS" as previously stated, but whatever.

~Dave

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I have not failed. I''''ve just found 10,000 ways that don''''t work - Thomas A. Edison

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(in reply to init4fun)

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All Forums >> Radios, Batteries, Clubhouse and more >> The Clubhouse >> RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part Deux
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