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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/2/2013 5:47 PM   
init4fun


 

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ORIGINAL: ovationdave

I have absolutely been asked ''What ARF is that?''. Mostly by the younger crowd at the field or spectators that have not taken the leap into the hobby yet. Most of the old-timers know a kit when they see it, or maybe they are just familiar enough with the ARF market that they know they don't recognize it as any pre-packaged plane. I can usually spot an arf just from the trim scheme and being familiar with the adds in the R/C mags. It doesn't really matter, but I have certainly been asked the question. I don't see making this claim as ''macho chest thumping BS'' as previously stated, but whatever.

~Dave



Sorry Dave , I should have been more clear ;

The last comment was aimed tword the whole ugly ARF vs kit thing that surfaces each and every time this discussion takes place . The chest pounding being those that are determined to show the world how much better they are cause they would'nt be caught dead flying an ARF .

My bad for not properly framing my point ......

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/2/2013 5:55 PM   
H5606


 

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quote:

H5606, you need help, dude.

quote:

I think the habit on inhaling stuff (glue maybe?) had a huge effect on yer brain:-)

Gerry


Funny thing is I've heard my wife and colleagues make similar remarks many times over...

I've had this revelation though that I thought I would share especially since the end of the world keeps coming up and maybe this is where our resources will come from in the future. Since I've damaged so many ARFs over the years from my addictive practices, and since I believe I'm on the mend, I thought I could be resourceful enough to harvest the materials to build other airplanes from the parts. For example, let's say one of the ARFs I fell on was a Top Flight Giant Scale F4U Corsair - all the hardware could be set aside easily enough. Next, pulling the ailerons and flaps from the wing panels, elevators from the horizontal stab, and rudder from the vertical stab to havest the hinges. Then, carefully remove the Monokote covering from all major components - this can probably be done with a great deal of patience but one must find a way to store the material so that it doesn't re-stick to itself. Next, would be what I believe to be most challenging - removal of the balsa sheeting - perhaps heat from an iron or heat gun would work well here with strategically placed cuts along butt seams. Next would be cutting longerons, stringers, spars, etc. free from formers, bulkheads, and ribs. Next, dissassembly of underlying structure and finally separating doublers. Now these parts could be cleaned up, glue removed, and surfaces sanded smooth. The cowling could be stripped of paint, and perhaps a torch used to separate the resin from the cloth.

Now, I would have materials and hardware on hand to build a completely new airplane from the ground up. The real challenge would be building an airplane larger than the one that was dissassembled but I think someone will do it in time...

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/2/2013 6:00 PM  1 votes
Jaybird


 

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Status: offline 		And that is....Why don't many people build RC kits any more....uhmm....

I wonder why people don't live in caves and wear animal skins and steal their women from other clubs, uh, I mean cavemen....


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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/2/2013 6:45 PM   
combatpigg



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quote:

ORIGINAL: ovationdave

I have absolutely been asked ''What ARF is that?''. Mostly by the younger crowd at the field or spectators that have not taken the leap into the hobby yet. Most of the old-timers know a kit when they see it, or maybe they are just familiar enough with the ARF market that they know they don't recognize it as any pre-packaged plane. I can usually spot an arf just from the trim scheme and being familiar with the adds in the R/C mags. It doesn't really matter, but I have certainly been asked the question. I don't see making this claim as ''macho chest thumping BS'' as previously stated, but whatever.

~Dave


Dave, it was easy to spot my Lanier Predator Q500 as an ARF. All the covering seams faced INTO the wind and the rear of the wing needed to be raised 1/4" to correct the [I'm guessing here] +5 degree error that was built into the plane. The hot glue they use acts like a waxy glue repellant that contaminates the surrounding wood, making repairs tedious. The firewall ripped loose during the final turn of what was going to be my first ever victory of a 10 lap heat ...so another way to spot it as an ARF was to see bamboo skewers poked into the firewall area to patch it back together enough to finish the day. Nobody there had to ask me if it was an ARF...


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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/2/2013 7:56 PM   
topspin


 

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Status: offline 		I have found a number of good kits online and thanks to Frank (Murocflyer) I was able to find a dozen more kit manufacturers that I didn't knwo about. The thing is I have to order online because my LHS oonly has one of two kits in stock anymore and they just don't sell them. Most of what they have are BNF and PnP stuff with a few ARFs. I guess if you want to sat in business it has to be that way. Fortunately there are plenty of cool kits still out there if you know where to look.

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/2/2013 11:55 PM   
straitnickel


 

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Status: offline 		Anybody give this reason yet, my wife and inlaws hate this hobby. Im disabled and she has a job but pays no bills, she keeps me as broke as she can. This is the reason I dont build, id need some nicer tools but cant afford any.

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/3/2013 12:28 AM   
ovationdave



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quote:

ORIGINAL: combatpigg


quote:

ORIGINAL: ovationdave

I have absolutely been asked ''What ARF is that?''. Mostly by the younger crowd at the field or spectators that have not taken the leap into the hobby yet. Most of the old-timers know a kit when they see it, or maybe they are just familiar enough with the ARF market that they know they don't recognize it as any pre-packaged plane. I can usually spot an arf just from the trim scheme and being familiar with the adds in the R/C mags. It doesn't really matter, but I have certainly been asked the question. I don't see making this claim as ''macho chest thumping BS'' as previously stated, but whatever.

~Dave


Dave, it was easy to spot my Lanier Predator Q500 as an ARF. All the covering seams faced INTO the wind and the rear of the wing needed to be raised 1/4'' to correct the [I'm guessing here] +5 degree error that was built into the plane. The hot glue they use acts like a waxy glue repellant that contaminates the surrounding wood, making repairs tedious. The firewall ripped loose during the final turn of what was going to be my first ever victory of a 10 lap heat ...so another way to spot it as an ARF was to see bamboo skewers poked into the firewall area to patch it back together enough to finish the day. Nobody there had to ask me if it was an ARF...



I didn't know that came in an ARF? I built a Lanier Q500.......in fact that is one of the planes that inspired the inquiry about it being an arf...maybe thats why?


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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/3/2013 12:50 AM   
ovationdave



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Status: offline 		Duh, Just realized you said predator, mine was a dominator. Opps.

BTW, no offense init4fun, just thought you may need to switch to decaf.............lol. No worries.

Happy new year all.

~Dave


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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/3/2013 12:51 AM   
eddieC



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Status: offline 		Straitnickel, sorry, sounds tough. My ex hated the hobby too, I know a little what you mean. 

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/3/2013 1:27 AM   
ovationdave



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Status: offline 		There is certainly a cost associated with a workshop, as well as a dedicated area to perform a build for an extended period that some folks don't have the luxury of. The small fortune invested in hardware that must be on-hand to build a kit is another expense not required in the ARF world. I have both, but prefer to build. But sometimes, when you re-kit a plane or two in the middle of summer, you just want to get back in the air asap.

Its all good......

~Dave


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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/3/2013 3:06 AM   
GallopingGhostler



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ORIGINAL: ovationdave There is certainly a cost associated with a workshop, as well as a dedicated area to perform a build for an extended period that some folks don't have the luxury of. The small fortune invested in hardware that must be on-hand to build a kit is another expense not required in the ARF world. I have both, but prefer to build. But sometimes, when you re-kit a plane or two in the middle of summer, you just want to get back in the air asap. Its all good......

Dave, I remember kit building in my bedroom floor as a high schooler. Building planes in a dorm room, studio apartment, and etc. Of course I had to clean up after, find a convenient stopping point, but that didn't stop me. Sanded outside sitting on the sidewalk or off a balcony with a plane part in my hands. Doping (model airplane lacquer painting) airframes with windows and doors open. Some time back aircraft accessories weren't as expensive as they are now.

A workshop is nice, but not absolutely necessary. Where there is a will there is a way.

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/3/2013 3:17 AM   
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Status: offline 		A 3/4" thick, 12"x36" pine board was my model plane "workshop" for many years while I worked on the road living in apartments, motels and hotels. The main tool, even for cutting up to 1/8" thick aircraft plywood was an Xacto knife. I used a hacksaw blade with electrical tape wrapped around one end for cutting maple mounts and such. Of course sandpaper wrapped around a block of wood was another tool. A steel ruler was also essential. I did the iron on covering with a standard clothes iron.
If there is a will, there is a way. Elaborate tools and extra space is a "nicety" but not a "necessity".


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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/3/2013 4:02 AM   
spd101


 

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Status: offline 		I do look at the people that build from kits and scratch build and greatly appreciate their craftsmanship. I also look at the BNF PNP ARF RTf and electrics as helping to advance the hobby and keep it going during these economic times. I started flying in 2000 and started with a Kadet LT-40 arf and learned alot from ARF owners, kit builders, modelers old and new. I always try to talk to and help the new people that come to our field. Sometimes i spend more time helping than flying, and thats fine with me.

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/3/2013 7:16 AM   
HighPlains


 

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Status: offline 		An exacto knife with a #11 blade, coping saw, and an egg beater drill and cheap bit set built a lot of models until I got out of college. All other tools were in the field box. Later came the power tools.

All you need to get someone to ask if your model is an ARF is do a great job of covering, especially if you throw in some vinyl grapics, names and logos. Leave a few bubbles in the covering to sell it.

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/3/2013 12:43 PM   
GallopingGhostler



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Status: offline 		Broken double edge razor blades with end snapped off by pliers to trim tissue and Monokote, Xacto knife for wood trimming and freeing parts, 20"x30" drafting wood board soft enough to push pins in (ref. combatpigg), pins salvaged from shirt purchases and dress maker pins, same type "egg beater" hand drill HighPlains had, coping saw, auto 3M rubber sanding block, this was my "workshop".

Then around 1978 I upgraded, bought a Craftsman 1/4 inch single speed electric drill. (Back then they were a quality item, gave the drill away 20 years later.)

I think HighPlains, you were being facetious. I take enough pride in my covering to leave the bubbles out if at all possible.

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/3/2013 12:57 PM   
GerKonig


 

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ORIGINAL: ovationdave

There is certainly a cost associated with a workshop, as well as a dedicated area to perform a build for an extended period that some folks don't have the luxury of. The small fortune invested in hardware that must be on-hand to build a kit is another expense not required in the ARF world. I have both, but prefer to build. But sometimes, when you re-kit a plane or two in the middle of summer, you just want to get back in the air asap.

Its all good......

~Dave


True, very true. This fall, I made a turn in order to come in to land (like hundreds of times before), and as I was flying along the tree line, a big tree moved out like 30 feet, and catched my giant stick (ARF), electric powered. The only real damage was that it demolished 1/3 of one half wing, and a bit the other half.

True, I could rip all the covering, and work at re-buiilding the darn thing, no need for blueprints. But the cost of all that monocote, plus the balsa is one factor. My lack of time another. So, a replacement wing was in order.

IF you buy reputable arf's you can get parts for those (for a limited period of time, at least).

I love Balsa USA models, and I am working on one, make that two, now (one 1/4 one 1/3 scale) but I also mix my built kits with arfs.

Balsa USA 1/4 scale Super Cub (Quadra 42). Over 20 years old, recovered and repainted 2 years ago
Sig 1/4 scale clipped win (electric)
RV-4 1/4 scale ARF (Great Planes) Electric
1/5 scale Curtiss Hawk (Bipe) Gas

On the board:
Re-do a 1/3 scale Morane Saulnier, possible electric conversion
1/4 scale Balsa USA Fokker DVIII will be electric

Plus, 2 foamies (Tiger Motjh, and an acro model)

My next "kit" actually will be an arf. I have to replace a Telemaster ARF that had well over 7 years of age, hundreds of flights. The model I would grab anytime to go out when I had a couple of hours. I had a radio failure, and it went crazy. Maybe a Pawnee 40 from Horizon or one of their new models Meridian I think it is called...

This is a fun hobby. I started well over 40 years ago, and I am not stopping now:-) You can make it relatively cheap or very expensive...

Gerry







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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/3/2013 1:49 PM   
ovationdave



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Status: offline 		So for everyone who had a "poor mans workshop" (for lack of a better term), if you think about it, if you wanted to fly, that was your only option. When George or Combat were in apartments/motels/dorms, whatever, they didn't have the option to go buy a decent ARF and get in the air quickly. So my question would be, if you went back in time, and the arf's were out there, would you have gone though the effort of sanding a part off a balcony and cutting 2x4's with a #11 blade or just bought the ARF? I am just saying, I have to believe that some would have flown arf's if they had the option at the time, thats all. Luckily, I am part of the generation that began by building, and learned to love that part of it, its a major part of this hobby for me and I enjoy it. For some, the convienence of the ARF may never let them realize how much fun building can be.

To bad, they don't know what they are missing (at least in my opinion).

~Dave


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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/3/2013 2:28 PM   
init4fun


 

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Status: offline 		Hi Dave ,

I am of the "age before ARFs" and to answer your question , I really do think I'd have done both build kits and ARFs if they were available back then , just as I do now , and here's the reason ;

I am interested in the mechanical and technological aspects of RC flight as well as "flight for flight's sake" . I like setting up the servos and such , things that some folks dread . My engine collection is even larger than the number of planes I own or will ever own . I fly both Lipo and A123 electric , Glow and Gas , in the flavors of both 72 MHZ and 2.4 GHZ . I know more about my self built model planes than most know about the car they drive , and ya just don't get that in a pre assembled box . That's my Tech happy side . Now then , My flying side , the one that just wants to tear the skies a new one with something of minimal time or personal value invested issues is the side that chooses to just grab the ARF and go . While I'm taking months working on gluing and sanding a kit I can run through several ARFs and have planes to grab and fly at a moment's good weather notice . I guess the bottom line always will be what each person is looking for in the hobby , be it , the flying , the tech , or any combination of the two . I have no animosity for the "just flying" crew , I understand they could care less about the tech and just want to fly and I'm fine with that . "flyers only" shouldn't be shunned from the hobby by those of us who are into both because their enjoyment of their interest doesn't in the least diminish any of mine . There really is room in the hobby for all

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/3/2013 2:43 PM   
straitnickel


 

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/3/2013 2:48 PM   
combatpigg



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ORIGINAL: ovationdave

So for everyone who had a ''poor mans workshop'' (for lack of a better term), if you think about it, if you wanted to fly, that was your only option. When George or Combat were in apartments/motels/dorms, whatever, they didn't have the option to go buy a decent ARF and get in the air quickly. So my question would be, if you went back in time, and the arf's were out there, would you have gone though the effort of sanding a part off a balcony and cutting 2x4's with a #11 blade or just bought the ARF? I am just saying, I have to believe that some would have flown arf's if they had the option at the time, thats all. Luckily, I am part of the generation that began by building, and learned to love that part of it, its a major part of this hobby for me and I enjoy it. For some, the convienence of the ARF may never let them realize how much fun building can be.

To bad, they don't know what they are missing (at least in my opinion).

~Dave


Dave, my option back then would have been to buy a used plane from someone else and that would have been like buying used underwear for me........ If there were good values to be had back then with new ARFs, I would have probably bought some. I DID sucker for a few ARFs through the years that ended up being horrible wastes of money.
Put that aside and my hobby was to design and build planes to compete at the local level in AMA Combat, and to build RC kits for sport flying. I doubt that having a huge selection of competitive ARFs would have changed that much. It might have snuffed out my interest in learning about basic aerodynamics to gain enough technical competence to design my own planes, but I doubt that too. This hobby has been a terrific creative outlet for me and a great learning experience that the "ARF Experience" would have only served to dilute.


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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/3/2013 2:58 PM   
Bax


 

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Status: offline 		One reason people think some ARF models are built with hot glue is the way it looks...it does look extruded. That's because it is extruded from a gun, but it isn't hot glue. It's an RF-setting glue. The assembly is built in a jig, the parts have the glue applied, and then the whole thing is put in to a type of cage that irradiates it with radio waves of a specific frequency. That causes the glue to set up. Easy and fast. Just right for production assembly. The glue is rated similar to other ways of gluing, such as carpenter's glue.

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/3/2013 3:15 PM   
ovationdave



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ORIGINAL: init4fun

Hi Dave ,

While I'm taking months working on gluing and sanding a kit I can run through several ARFs and have planes to grab and fly at a moment's good weather notice .



I am right there with you. I do both. and for the same reason, sometimes you want to build, but I go though phases where I want to fly. I don't want to wait for my build to get done. There can be a balance.....

~Dave


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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/3/2013 3:34 PM   
HighPlains


 

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/3/2013 3:59 PM   
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Status: offline 		Nobody's complaining, other than for poor workmanship. 
(And for pompous, pseudo-intellectual sigs.).   
 
I've looked at some of the larger foamy warbirds, and they're well-built at a good price. 


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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/3/2013 4:17 PM   
Muttdog


 

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Status: offline 		 I am a flyer, my Father in law is a builder. Forget the fact that I own my own business that eats a ton of time and another passion of riding MX bikes. It really does not matter if I have the time/money/room etc.  I have built a plane before and to be honest I simply don't care for it. Glad I got the experience but it's not my cup of tea. I like the thrill of flying and that's that. My Father in Law spends months in the shop and many times pays or gets local pros at the field to fly his planes for him. Either way I see nothing wrong with either one. Same thing happens in full size flight. Most buy planes but some build and fly their own. I never hear kit builders telling cessna owners that they are not "true" pilots or whatever you want to say. I also believe that the ARF market has vaulted this hobby to heights never before seen. Some may not like that but the flip side is more people in the hobby equals more dollars and more dollars equals new equipment, new vendors and better competition/product. Would we have seen the 2.4Ghz revolution or the gas engine revolution? Perhaps, but the ARF market and the dollars that drive it are huge influences in new product development that all of us get to enjoy regardless of what side of the fence you are on. Just my .02 - MD

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All Forums >> Radios, Batteries, Clubhouse and more >> The Clubhouse >> RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part Deux
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