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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/4/2013 1:42 AM   
ssautter


 

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Status: offline 		For those who don't like to cover kits with film:

I'd highly recommend attending a FF or C/L event, in which many modelers use silkspan or tissue and dope.

Mylar covering is rather quirky to work with, and some non-RC builders shy away from it....for good reason.

Some newer modelers prefer covering with white casein glue or a purple glue stick over butyrate and nitrate dope.

There's also the option of using clear coats from a rattle can, or even future floor polish, if the smell of dope bothers the builder.

Whatever I have on hand, is what always works best for me. And, whatever is in-stock at the hardware store is what works second best.

My local FF CD uses tissue that's so old, it's developed holes in storage! So, I'm definitely the kinda flying buddy who'll support "run what u brung".

Having written all that....I prefer to paint my models, if I can. Monokote, UltraCote, and other films are fine on open structures, but don't impress me in the long-run.

One could even argue that molded-composite fuselages and lift surfaces with live kevlar hinges are "ARF"s; but, the knowledge and experience needed to complete and fly such models would beg to differ.

< Message edited by ssautter -- 1/6/2013 11:06 PM >

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/4/2013 3:35 AM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ssautter

For those who don't like to cover kits:

I'd highly recommend attending a FF or C/L event, in which many modelers use silkspan or tissue and dope.

Mylar covering is rather quirky to work with, and many non-RC builders shy away from it....for good reason.

Some newer modelers prefer covering with white casein glue or a purple glue stick over butyrate and nitrate dope.

There's also the option of using clear coats from a rattle can, or even future floor polish, if the smell of dope bothers the builder.

Whatever I have on hand, is what always works best for me. And, whatever is in-stock at the hardware store is what works second best.

My local FF CD uses tissue that's so old, it's developed holes in storage! So, I'm definitely the kinda flying buddy who'll support ''run what u brung''.

Having written all that....I prefer to paint my models, if I can. Monokote, UltraCote, and other films are fine on open structures, but don't impress me in the long-run.

One could even argue that molded-composite fuselages and lift surfaces with live kevlar hinges are ''ARF''s; but, the knowledge and experience needed to complete and fly such models would beg to differ.


I read recently that no one sells silk span anymore.

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/4/2013 3:37 AM   
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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/4/2013 3:55 AM   
straitnickel


 

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/4/2013 4:49 AM   
GallopingGhostler



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Status: offline 		ARF's were available back in the 1960's, 1970's. They were expensive compared with kits. The affordable foam jobs became available in the late 1980's, I bought a few. In the 1990's, I bought a .40 sized Flitecraft J3 Cub. So, to say I didn't build ARF's would be incorrect.

I've accumulated sufficient kits that I had to draw a line. Thus, my goal is now to build what I have. Rather than purchase ARF's, I'm scratch building with foam. They've got the quick build of ARF's with the fun of kit building.

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/4/2013 4:53 AM   
GallopingGhostler



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Status: offline 		There are those who build CL's with the plastic film coverings, so not all FF and CL fliers use traditional tissue, silkspan or silk coverings. There's a lot of freedom of choice.

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/4/2013 1:28 PM   
airborneSGT



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Status: offline 		I have a job, own a company, play drums in a band, have a daugher now and also have a wife. All these things really take up a lot of time. Lately my free time I spend travling Europe with my family. When I am back in the states I might build me a 40% kit or so. My problem is I start something and never finish for any number of reasons. ARF's offer me a way to "assemble" and enjoy the time I do have to fly.

Back when I was a single guy living in the barracks I used to love building and actually built flying and plastic models. During those times it was just passing time until I was out of the Army!

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/5/2013 2:12 PM   
GallopingGhostler



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Status: offline 		You mention about starting and not finishing a kit, airborneSGT. Yes, I've done that before. It seems if I don't complete it in a timely manner, I lose the synergy. It takes a bit to get it back. I find it the same way with ARF's as well. It requires me to push through and eventually I'll get them done.

You are correct, though. The ARF's do help the busy person to go flying. That is part of the reason why I never picked out complex building kits. I have a blast flying the simple building ones, just as much as I would with a complex building one. As you see, I probably won't be doing many Cleveland kits.

I play baritone and alto saxophones in the Clovis Community Band. I was a 02J and a 02L in a former life.

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/6/2013 10:55 PM   
ssautter


 

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Status: offline 		Yes,

Some people are allergic to CA fumes and, me personally, I'm extremely allergic to carbon fiber and fiberglass.

Doesn't mean I won't fly a carbon fiber airplane....just so long as someone else builds it!

quote:

ORIGINAL: GallopingGhostler

There are those who build CL's with the plastic film coverings, so not all FF and CL fliers use traditional tissue, silkspan or silk coverings. There's a lot of freedom of choice.



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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/6/2013 11:10 PM   
GallopingGhostler



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ORIGINAL: ssautterSome people are allergic to CA fumes and, me personally, I'm extremely allergic to carbon fiber and fiberglass. Doesn't mean I won't fly a carbon fiber airplane....just so long as someone else builds it!

Nowadays I use properly rated NIOSH N95 masks for sanding and N97 masks for stuff like fiberglass, and a respirator with filters when painting. Nowadays they are affordable and worth the cost in the reduction of discomfort and health issues. Anyway, that's worked for me. YMMV.

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/9/2013 12:51 AM   
ssautter


 

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Status: offline 		Great!

I'd need a full-body respirator, as my allergic reactions show themselves in the form of skin rashes.

Will you sand my composite fuses for me? LOL

Lately, I've been going for the traditional forms of covering, like tissue, while using the newer, hypoallergenic, forms of adhesion like purple glue sticks and spray finish.

Here's to your health....

quote:

ORIGINAL: GallopingGhostler

quote:

ORIGINAL: ssautterSome people are allergic to CA fumes and, me personally, I'm extremely allergic to carbon fiber and fiberglass. Doesn't mean I won't fly a carbon fiber airplane....just so long as someone else builds it!

Nowadays I use properly rated NIOSH N95 masks for sanding and N97 masks for stuff like fiberglass, and a respirator with filters when painting. Nowadays they are affordable and worth the cost in the reduction of discomfort and health issues. Anyway, that's worked for me. YMMV.



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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/9/2013 2:19 AM   
GallopingGhostler



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ORIGINAL: ssautter Great! I'd need a full-body respirator, as my allergic reactions show themselves in the form of skin rashes. Will you sand my composite fuses for me? LOL Lately, I've been going for the traditional forms of covering, like tissue, while using the newer, hypoallergenic, forms of adhesion like purple glue sticks and spray finish. Here's to your health....

Ouch! Then you really have it severe, ssautter. Short of wearing a Tyvec bunny suit and gloves an asbestos abater would wear, then you are limited in what you can build. I've got allergies, but not that severe.

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/16/2013 12:19 AM   
ssautter


 

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Balsa dust doesn't bother me too much, so I build traditional stick-and-tissue models.

It's nearly impossible to find competitive RTF FF and C/L models, so I alternate between flying RC ARFs and building traditional kits.

It all depends on what I'm flying during any given season. I've participated in IMAC contests without a single kit on the flightline!

Meanwhile, I've entered free flight contests without a single ARF allowed. And, I still like building GWS foamies, profile foamies, and SPADs.



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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/16/2013 4:33 AM   
GallopingGhostler



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Status: offline 		I can understand that, sautter. I as an adolescent started out with Comet rubber powered stick and tissue kits, then graduated to 1/2-A CL planes, then RC. I love to build, but also love simplicity in designs that allow quick building. Talking about stick building, I bought a Miss Stik Senior 55" (1 400 mm) Texaco-like electric floater from Hobby Lobby when they were still selling it, hope to build soon. It is definitely a stick build, even the wing ribs are built up. Plan to power it with a venerable Fuji .099S-II cross scavenged ABC with baffle piston engine (low 5.5:1 compression ratio).

But also will be building bigger stuff to be able to handle the Clovis winds.

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/16/2013 6:52 AM   
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ORIGINAL: Woody218


Some people develop the attitude that because they built it from a kit, that makes them a ''better'' modeler. I just don't see it that way.


maybe it does make them a better "modeler" in the "model builder" sense of the word...but there are a 1000 different facets to this hobby of ours that people can enjoy and with all the prebuilt planes today a person that just enjoys flying doesn't have to be a modeler any more. then there are great model builders out there who don't fly. there are guys who could care less about all this building and flying and just like to bench mount engines and run them. there's something for everyone in this hobby and the important part is to respect someone else's choices even if they don't reflect your own view of what's enjoyable....it's not like they're stamp collectors or something nasty like that...


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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/16/2013 2:55 PM   
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Status: offline 		In my opinion there are two types of aircraft modelers. Those who enjoy building and flying and those who just enjoy flying. I wouldn't say one is better than the other but I can see why we are becoming an ARF or RTF world. The way we live leaves a lot of us working stiffs with out a lot of time for a hobby. Back when I was a kid and just getting started in the flying hobby, I wanted an ARF so bad. Mainly because I just wanted to fly. That was my main interest. My dad said if we were going to do this we were going to build the kit. His number one reason was because when, not if, it crashed we would know how to fix it. I was so frustrated that entire winter while we built the plane. Then after that first season of flying we build another kit the following winter. I took 15 years off to "grow up" one might say. I am back flying and love the hobby even more. I have found that buying cheap planes off Craig's list and repairing either a mild crash or just hangar rash is really fun. A great stress reliever after work. I also like recovering them in my own design. I credit all my skills I have now to building and repairing the kits I built years ago. I have built a CG Ultimate and own a never flown ARF version and the main reason I like kits is having the ability to reinforce weak spots and improve upon designs. I like the idea of ARF's but it seems I haven't found one that I feel has been built as sturdy as I would build a kit.

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/18/2013 1:05 AM   
ssautter


 

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Status: offline 		Those who just enjoy flying aren't really "modelers" at all!

I go through my phases, too. This winter, my AMA-chartered club is flying indoors, and has a much larger space than last year.

But, I haven't joined them once since the New Years meeting, 'cause I'm preoccupied repairing all the models I bashed over the summer.

As mentioned earlier, some people just don't have the shop space for bench tools and scratch building. I'm somewhere in-between.

My garage is ridiculously cold in the winter, without heat and insulation, so I solder and dremel and paint outside, and build inside.

SPADs and profile foamies are about the extent of my "scratch building". Not a bad way to move away from big-box brands and Chinese ARF's.

Here's some links for ARF pilots, wanting to model more: http://www.spadtothebone.net/freeplans.htm  http://www.****/gliders/glidersabout.htm



quote:

ORIGINAL: mnmopar

In my opinion there are two types of aircraft modelers. Those who enjoy building and flying and those who just enjoy flying.



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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/19/2013 5:28 PM   
topspin


 

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Status: offline 		I was just looking at BP's website and they have a polyester material that is like the old silkspan only better. They also have a bunch of other new type covering materials, at least new to me.

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/19/2013 9:45 PM   
ssautter


 

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Status: offline 		Another related question I have is why don't RC kit builders fly ARFs?

The following video shows a very elaborate kit, crashing on its maiden flight....just as a disclaimer: this video is not my intellectual property.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yV0ZcVbM82k

If a modeller spend multiple years and thousands of dollars, building a kit, it is still a good idea to log hours on an ARF, so that the maiden flight of the kit is a non-event.

Many of the Pros have "practice planes" or "backup planes" and master builders can do the same.

Practicing with a similar ARF, or even a cheap RTF foamy, just might save you the pain of crashing your high-dollar invesment.

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/19/2013 10:10 PM   
GallopingGhostler



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Status: offline 		Can't say based on the video whether a controls malfunction or what, looks like he stalled it. Here's another DC-3, a smaller version, it gets dorked also.



Practice makes perfect of course, but it also doesn't hurt to inspect one's gear linkages and all, and makes sure it is performing properly prior to flight.

Here's another, pilot lost an engine on this P-38 and should have cut power, brought it in as though dead stick.



Oh, and I wanted to add, what about that ARF pilot who after having many satisfying flights on that Bixler park flier buys himself a decently sized T-28 Trojan war bird, then totals it on the first flight? ARF's are handy, but whether one or the other there is a learning curve. Of course it makes more sense to have a certain mastery sufficient for the step up, which may dictate some form of intermediate flier, even an ARF if need be. I think it not an issue of build versus ARF, but good common sense. And in spite of the best efforts, sometimes stuff just happens.

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/19/2013 10:32 PM   
804


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ssautter

Another related question I have is why don't RC kit builders fly ARFs?

The following video shows a very elaborate kit, crashing on its maiden flight....just as a disclaimer: this video is not my intellectual property.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yV0ZcVbM82k

If a modeller spend multiple years and thousands of dollars, building a kit, it is still a good idea to log hours on an ARF, so that the maiden flight of the kit is a non-event.

Many of the Pros have ''practice planes'' or ''backup planes'' and master builders can do the same.

Practicing with a similar ARF, or even a cheap RTF foamy, just might save you the pain of crashing your high-dollar invesment.

At the end of the vid., someone says something about ailerons being backwards.
So, yes, one should definitely practice flying many times with reversed ailerons, (or any reversed control surfaces, for that matter),
with something expendable before trying it on a maiden flight of something like that C-47.

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/19/2013 11:33 PM   
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ORIGINAL: ssautter

Another related question I have is why don't RC kit builders fly ARFs?



You could ask this of 1000 kit [only] builders and flyers and come away with 100's of different reasons why.
I get a joy out of flying what I've built with my own 2 hands that just isn't there when I'm flying an ARF. I'm the same way about electric power..the thrill just isn't there for me.
If I have an elaborate build in progress [like you described] then I would simply fly other planes that I built in the meantime.


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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/20/2013 2:12 AM   
jessiej



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quote:

ORIGINAL: combatpigg


quote:

ORIGINAL: ssautter

Another related question I have is why don't RC kit builders fly ARFs?



You could ask this of 1000 kit [only] builders and flyers and come away with 100's of different reasons why.
I get a joy out of flying what I've built with my own 2 hands that just isn't there when I'm flying an ARF. I'm the same way about electric power..the thrill just isn't there for me.
If I have an elaborate build in progress [like you described] then I would simply fly other planes that I built in the meantime.


My thoughts are much the same. Actually, once I have built a model and have it trimmed and performing properly I soon become bored with it and build something else. I simply have no interest in flying ARFs. Should I have nothing to fly I simply indulge one of my other hobbies.

Jess

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/21/2013 10:00 AM   
Bill G



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quote:

ORIGINAL: jessiej


quote:

ORIGINAL: combatpigg


quote:

ORIGINAL: ssautter

Another related question I have is why don't RC kit builders fly ARFs?



You could ask this of 1000 kit [only] builders and flyers and come away with 100's of different reasons why.
I get a joy out of flying what I've built with my own 2 hands that just isn't there when I'm flying an ARF. I'm the same way about electric power..the thrill just isn't there for me.
If I have an elaborate build in progress [like you described] then I would simply fly other planes that I built in the meantime.


My thoughts are much the same. Actually, once I have built a model and have it trimmed and performing properly I soon become bored with it and build something else. I simply have no interest in flying ARFs. Should I have nothing to fly I simply indulge one of my other hobbies.

Jess

Exactly. I would end up buying an ARF everyday, considering that I lose interest quickly. The excitement for me is constantly building something new (preferably that will never be sold as an ARF as I like uniqueness) and seeing it fly. Two flights on a plane is really good for me. That happened with my Heston Phoenix, since my buddy didn't properly record the video during the first flight.

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RE: Why don't many people build RC kits any more, Part ... - 1/23/2013 1:15 AM   
ssautter


 

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Status: offline 		No matter what type of ship I'm flying, I was always taught to practice emergency procedures, because full-scale pilots have absolutely no choice.

Simulated-engine failures, stall recovery, auto-rotations, stuck rudder pedal, etc.... Just because an airplane is kit built, doesn't mean parts won't fail, unexpectedley.

Yes, the DC3/C47 in the video should have been given a proper pre-flight inspection; however, any airplane with dihedral can roll - in an emergency - with rudder control only.

If building a model and flying it twice becomes boring, might I suggest full-scale?




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