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down with ethanol - 12/29/2012 2:50 PM   
sgtshultz


 

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Status: offline 		I found a local station that has 100 octane racing fuel. "No ethanol". How would this do in my RCGF 40cc twin?

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RE: down with ethanol - 12/29/2012 5:55 PM   
pe reivers



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Status: offline 		Your RCGF is built for regular 87 octane fuel. There will be no-gain/no-pain using more octane.


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RE: down with ethanol - 12/29/2012 6:20 PM   
lohring


 

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Status: offline 		We've done a lot of fuel tests on a modified Zenoah marine engine.  See the article "Gasoline".  There was no power difference even when some nitro was added to ethanol containing gasoline.  Coleman camp fuel at 55 octane runs fine and avoids problems with ethanol on Walbro carb diaphragms.

Lohring Miller


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RE: down with ethanol - 12/29/2012 6:30 PM   
flyinwalenda


 

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RE: down with ethanol - 12/29/2012 7:27 PM   
Gray Beard


 

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Status: offline 		I have replaced the diaphragms in all my gassers carbs with the newer ones that aren't effected by alcohol and I have also been buying alcohol free gas at my local Rebel station. No real reason to buy the rebel gas but it's on the way to the field. The new carb kits were only a couple bucks when I bought them.

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RE: down with ethanol - 12/29/2012 10:23 PM   
pe reivers



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quote:

ORIGINAL: lohring

We've done a lot of fuel tests on a modified Zenoah marine engine.  See the article "Gasoline".  There was no power difference even when some nitro was added to ethanol containing gasoline.  Coleman camp fuel at 55 octane runs fine and avoids problems with ethanol on Walbro carb diaphragms.

Lohring Miller


Try running Coleman fuel in a European engine and then come back here and make that statement again. (unless you're at an altitude of more than 6000', which brings down the effective compression end pressure and temperatures significantly )
Engines die because of too low octane. They care not about too high octane.



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RE: down with ethanol - 12/29/2012 11:06 PM   
WhiteRook



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Status: offline 		the only prob with ethanol is that it tends to unmix itself , leaving water in your gas, usually when its been sitting for awile.
straight 87 or so octane would do away with this problem.

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RE: down with ethanol - 12/30/2012 12:15 AM  1 votes
chris923


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhiteRook

the only prob with ethanol is that it tends to unmix itself , leaving water in your gas, usually when its been sitting for awile.
straight 87 or so octane would do away with this problem.


Here in wisconsin, all gas has 10% ethanol. I run all my gasser (DLE 55,30,20) JBA 15, Quadra 35, zenoha g-62 with lawn boy ashless 32:1. Never in 100's of flight had a fuel related issue. I have even is gas that has sat around ofr 5 mos mixed in a can and it was just fine. Yes, all my carbs have ethanol safe. gaskets.

PS, I use only 87 octane gas.

Chris923

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RE: down with ethanol - 12/30/2012 6:52 AM   
Capt. Clarence Oveur



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Status: offline 		Guys Give this web site a try   http://pure-gas.org/   its a list of Ethanol free gas


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RE: down with ethanol - 12/30/2012 5:31 PM   
lohring


 

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Status: offline 		"Try running Coleman fuel in a European engine and then come back here and make that statement again. (unless you're at an altitude of more than 6000', which brings down the effective compression end pressure and temperatures significantly )
Engines die because of too low octane. They care not about too high octane."

I specifically said Coleman fuel works in Zenoahs.  I bet the majority of model boat racers use it.  Only in high compression engines like the Quickdraw does octane rating matter.  By the way, those stock 26 cc Zenoahs develop around 4 hp at 13,000 rpm for a BMEP of 77 psi (5 bar).  Modified they develop around 6 hp at 16,000 rpm with BMEP at 94 psi (6 bar).  The RCGF 40 cc engine develops 4.6 hp at around 7000 rpm for a BMEP of around 100 psi (7 bar).  That aircraft engine is a higher performance engine and may need a higher octane fuel.  From the manufacturer's web site: "Fuel - Use Regular 87-90 octane Gasoline or Coleman Fuel with octane boost (sorry we do not sell fuel) mixed with 2 cycle oil. Use ashless NON-Synthetic oil for break in."

 Higher performance model marine engines also need higher octane fuel.  Our testing on Quickdraw 26 cc engines shows significant loss of power on 87 octane fuel.  We set the RC gasoline fueled boat speed record at 109 mph in 2004 that still stands.  We used VP's U-2 fuel.  This is a 101 octane highly oxygenated fuel that performs much better in Quickdraw engines than any standard gasoline regardless of octane rating.  Gasoline is a broad description of a lot of very different fuels. 

Lohring Miller


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RE: down with ethanol - 12/30/2012 6:06 PM   
pe reivers



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Status: offline 		Lohring,
Your post was misleading. You said modified Zenoah, without stating any details. Also lacking was the article you referred to., so you made it sound like Coleman fuel in general was AOK, which it is not.

Thanks for correcting that Coleman with octane boost is OK in some engines, mostly the ones that require regular 87PON only.


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RE: down with ethanol - 12/31/2012 5:40 AM   
dirtybird


 

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Status: offline 		The last gallon of Colman fuel I bought cost $10. I won't be using anymore of that stuff'. I guess that price would not bother Europeans though. Their pump gas costs that much.
BTW I used Colman fuel in a ZDZ 80 for several years and it didn't hurt it a bit.

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RE: down with ethanol - 12/31/2012 12:26 PM   
pe reivers



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Status: offline 		That is because your altitude is close to 2000 feet, like I stated in a previous post.


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RE: down with ethanol - 12/31/2012 2:24 PM   
jeffk464


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pe reivers

Your RCGF is built for regular 87 octane fuel. There will be no-gain/no-pain using more octane.



yup, higher octane gives more power by allowing for higher compression engines. Running high octane in "normal" compression engines does nothing.

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RE: down with ethanol - 12/31/2012 6:00 PM   
lohring


 

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Status: offline 		The link to the article "Gasoline" in the NAMBA Propwash was contained in my post.

Lohring Miller


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RE: down with ethanol - 12/31/2012 6:47 PM   
init4fun


 

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I would also be leery of the Coleman fuel , for my own RC plane engines , because of a little test I tried . I have had the same weed whacker , leaf blower , chainsaw and hedge trimmer two stroke yard equipment for years . Have run them on pump gas mixed with oil all these years . When I got my first couple of Gas model plane engines (an RCGF 15 and a SPE26) I decided to try some Coleman fuel , as I had read about using it on the on line RC forums . I decided to try the Coleman/Oil mix in the weed whacker first , since I didn't want to risk my brand new RC engines to it , and the weed whacker ran hot . I know it ran hotter than normal because it began to melt the little plastic cage over the muffler , something that hadn't happened in all those years of using gas . OK , I thought , Maybe it was just the weed whacker that didn't like the Coleman fuel , so I tried it in the leaf blower . It too ran hot , not hot enough to melt any covers , but still hot enough to make me uneasy about using it in any RC engine I care much about . I realize others use Coleman fuel with no problems and to them they may actually have some good reason for using it (maybe their engines run too cold and need the hotter running fuel ?? ) but for my uses I'll take good ol pump gas , whatever it's formula may be , over the Coleman fuel .

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RE: down with ethanol - 12/31/2012 7:56 PM   
captinjohn


 

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Status: online 		One of the best fuels/gas too use in USA is puregas found by using your computer.  If is not much more than the crappy pump gas found at most gas stations.    It can be stored or  left in your fuel container for very long periods.    Capt,n

http://pure-gas.org/

< Message edited by captinjohn -- 12/31/2012 9:15 PM >

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RE: down with ethanol - 12/31/2012 11:52 PM   
airraptor


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lohring

''Try running Coleman fuel in a European engine and then come back here and make that statement again. (unless you're at an altitude of more than 6000', which brings down the effective compression end pressure and temperatures significantly )
Engines die because of too low octane. They care not about too high octane.''

I specifically said Coleman fuel works in Zenoahs.  I bet the majority of model boat racers use it.  Only in high compression engines like the Quickdraw does octane rating matter.  By the way, those stock 26 cc Zenoahs develop around 4 hp at 13,000 rpm for a BMEP of 77 psi (5 bar).  Modified they develop around 6 hp at 16,000 rpm with BMEP at 94 psi (6 bar).  The RCGF 40 cc engine develops 4.6 hp at around 7000 rpm for a BMEP of around 100 psi (7 bar).  That aircraft engine is a higher performance engine and may need a higher octane fuel.  From the manufacturer's web site: ''Fuel - Use Regular 87-90 octane Gasoline or Coleman Fuel with octane boost (sorry we do not sell fuel) mixed with 2 cycle oil. Use ashless NON-Synthetic oil for break in.''

 Higher performance model marine engines also need higher octane fuel.  Our testing on Quickdraw 26 cc engines shows significant loss of power on 87 octane fuel.  We set the RC gasoline fueled boat speed record at 109 mph in 2004 that still stands.  We used VP's U-2 fuel.  This is a 101 octane highly oxygenated fuel that performs much better in Quickdraw engines than any standard gasoline regardless of octane rating.  Gasoline is a broad description of a lot of very different fuels. 

Lohring Miller




I bet on your quickdraw engine you were using a Tuned pipe so you needed high octane fuel also the ignition timing of the engine will need to be changed some for higher or lower octane (with in reason).

For the OP just run what the MFG says to run and you will be fine. until you know the ins and outs of making more power with an engine, just buy a bigger one if need more power or buy a single in the same displacment. Also "racegas" is misleading in that it will not make your engine a "race" engine. to high of a octane rating in an engine requiring less will just carbon up more in the chamber and over time cause a loss in power. Now you can run a "race gas" that is 93-95 octane and be just fine but why bother at 6-9 dollars a gallon unless dont like the smell.

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RE: down with ethanol - 1/1/2013 5:14 PM   
lohring


 

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Status: offline 		We run tuned pipes on all our marine racing engines.  BMEP is a standard measure of the state of tune of an engine.  It summarizes a lot of factors and higher values usually indicate the need for more detonation resistant fuels in non diesel engines.  Marine and road engines are free to increase power by maintaining BMEP and increasing rpm. Tuned pipes are a big help in this.  Aircraft engines are rpm limited unless they are geared.  It's easier to maintain reasonable scavenging at lower rpm without a tuned pipe.

Lohring Miller


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RE: down with ethanol - 1/1/2013 6:14 PM   
Stick2000



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Status: offline 		Hi everyone,

Question for you guys in this thread. Recently 3 of my gas engine started
giving me trouble with starting and running. I noticed the gas I'm using
has 10% ethanol in the mix. Could this be why I'm suddenly having problems
with my engines? I use Amsoil oil.

Stick2k


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RE: down with ethanol - 1/1/2013 7:04 PM   
Scota4570


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stick2000

Hi everyone,

Question for you guys in this thread. Recently 3 of my gas engine started
giving me trouble with starting and running. I noticed the gas I'm using
has 10% ethanol in the mix. Could this be why I'm suddenly having problems
with my engines? I use Amsoil oil.

Stick2k




It sounds like they are ruined, send them to me, install electric motors.

Ethanol is not a big deal, really! In my area I have no choice. My engines all run fine. Every once in a while I replace a pump diaphragm but, I can't say that has anything to do with ethanol. If you let your gasoline sit around for years it deteriorates. I now use Stabil fuel stabilizer in my parent 5-gallon jug. 5-gallons lasts me several months. I mix one gallon at a time. I have never had any problems that I could attribute to ethanol. I have run Coleman, it does not run well in every engine. I have tried high test pump gas with no noticeable difference. Fretting over gasoline brands, octane, oil brand, all that stuff is more about looking for something to fix than a real problem, IMHO.

Only two of my engines might warrant hi test gas. One is an OPS-30 and one a Stihl 79cc. Both have very high compression. Most normal engines fun fine on regular pump gas. Use what the manufacturer says to use in the manual. Never skimp on oil n the mix!

BTW is three engines all started running poorly, I'd open the needles up a bit. Winter, colder, air more dense, ...........richen it up a tad.

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RE: down with ethanol - 1/1/2013 7:55 PM   
Stick2000



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ORIGINAL: Scota4570


It sounds like they are ruined, send them to me, install electric motors.

Ethanol is not a big deal, really! In my area I have no choice. My engines all run fine. Every once in a while I replace a pump diaphragm but, I can't say that has anything to do with ethanol. If you let your gasoline sit around for years it deteriorates. I now use Stabil fuel stabilizer in my parent 5-gallon jug. 5-gallons lasts me several months. I mix one gallon at a time. I have never had any problems that I could attribute to ethanol. I have run Coleman, it does not run well in every engine. I have tried high test pump gas with no noticeable difference. Fretting over gasoline brands, octane, oil brand, all that stuff is more about looking for something to fix than a real problem, IMHO.

Only two of my engines might warrant hi test gas. One is an OPS-30 and one a Stihl 79cc. Both have very high compression. Most normal engines fun fine on regular pump gas. Use what the manufacturer says to use in the manual. Never skimp on oil n the mix!

BTW is three engines all started running poorly, I'd open the needles up a bit. Winter, colder, air more dense, ...........richen it up a tad.



When the weather warms-up I'll try some fresh gas whit out ethanol just to sure.
If that dose not work I'll send to you! I'll also check the gaskets as they might
need replacing. Lots of run time on all engines.

Thanks for the reply,
Stick2K


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RE: down with ethanol - 1/3/2013 9:50 PM   
karolh


 

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Status: online 		Ethanol is not a big deal, really! In my area I have no choice. My engines all run fine. Every once in a while I replace a pump diaphragm but, I can't say that has anything to do with ethanol. If you let your gasoline sit around for years it deteriorates. I now use Stabil fuel stabilizer in my parent 5-gallon jug. 5-gallons lasts me several months. I mix one gallon at a time. I have never had any problems that I could attribute to ethanol. I have run Coleman, it does not run well in every engine. I have tried high test pump gas with no noticeable difference. Fretting over gasoline brands, octane, oil brand, all that stuff is more about looking for something to fix than a real problem, IMHO.

Most normal engines run fine on regular pump gas. Use what the manufacturer says to use in the manual. Never skimp on oil in the mix!

[/quote]

Here in Jamaica it's 10% ethanol (E10) gas or nothing, and my experience using it has been exactly the same as yours, with the exception being that I have never used Coleman fuel. Just make sure to use ethanol compatable fuel tubing and carb diaphrams and you will be okay.

Karol

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RE: down with ethanol - 1/4/2013 2:56 AM   
captinjohn


 

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Status: online 		Try the purgas in cold weather, like in the fall of the year. The station where I buy it sell,s a lot of it for small 2 & 4 cycle engines.  Engines really start better. Also when your done for the fall...engine carbs will not gum up or deteriate the rubber parts. I had a 20 year old chainsaw I sold to my son-in-law that still runs great and I never had to change any part in the carb. Did install a new pick-up line & filter in tank.

Capt,n

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RE: down with ethanol - 1/4/2013 9:03 PM   
DG40


 

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Status: offline 		The local "very small airport" sell 100 octane ethanol free gas and was thinking of using it.

When I was younger my "car" engine would knock badly if I used 87 octane so would have to adjust timing depending on the octane.

Would it be a good idea to adjust the timing on my dle30 if using the airplane fuel?

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