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Interview of r/c jet engines users&owners - 12/31/2012 4:34 AM   
xmen3k


 

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From: Perm, RUSSIA
Status: offline 		Hello,
I would know is it big advantage for you to use kero/burner against air/gas(propan+air compressor) start? Would you use engine with gas start if it would be better than your with kero-burner. Better i mean: lighter, lower dimesions, better maintenance interval, lower comsumption of fuel. Pls be advised we tolk about much butter amounts not just 5-7% less or better we says in times. Thx a lot for all whom answer to me.
 


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RE: Interview of r/c jet engines users&owners - 12/31/2012 8:59 AM   
Robrow



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Status: offline 		It makes no difference to fuel consumption, dimensions or maintenance using a kero start engine as opposed to gas start. Advantages are no requirement to carry a gas canister, no glow plugs and generally much more convenient and user friendly.

Kero starting can take a little more time to reach idle (only seconds) but most people use this time to do all those little see off jobs like installing canopy/access panels, disconnecting start/taxi tank, flight control system checks and generally getting into their comfort zone, etc.

Hope that helps.

Rob.

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RE: Interview of r/c jet engines users&owners - 12/31/2012 9:43 AM   
xmen3k


 

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Status: offline 		Robrow thx for your answer. But I ansking something different. If i would offer you turbine with max diametr 100mm, weight 800 gramm, trust  8-9 Kg, consumption 3 times lower than JetCat JP80 and near Lamber Colibri would you by it but with gas start? Or you prefer JetCAt with kerstart?


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RE: Interview of r/c jet engines users&owners - 12/31/2012 11:03 AM   
Henke Torphammar



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quote:

ORIGINAL: xmen3k

Robrow thx for your answer. But I ansking something different. If i would offer you turbine with max diametr 100mm, weight 800 gramm, trust  8-9 Kg, consumption 3 times lower than JetCat JP80 and near Lamber Colibri would you by it but with gas start? Or you prefer JetCAt with kerstart?



A Kingtech K170 seem to have a 35watt(5.5amps on a 2S pack) burner and uses 100mAh for one start Not that much I think.

We have just made tests checking tempratures on a kerostarting P20 and it's not as bad as is looks, flames shooting here and there but not as hot at you would expect. More tests will be done soon, where among checking the mAh needed to kerostart the P20. When cold outside it fails to ignite on the first couple of tries, but so does a gas started engine. However if useing a small battery it might be a problem. Important for the small jets but not a problem for larger jets where a larger battery is used.



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RE: Interview of r/c jet engines users&owners - 12/31/2012 11:26 AM   
frema


 

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From: sint-maartensdijk, NETHERLANDS
Status: offline 		i like gas start
the startermotors have to run much less, and the engine is starting much quicker


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RE: Interview of r/c jet engines users&owners - 12/31/2012 11:34 AM   
Henke Torphammar



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quote:

ORIGINAL: frema

i like gas start
the startermotors have to run much less, and the engine is starting much quicker



Yeah that too! Kingtech and Jets munt do wear starter motors. I even made an upgraded 400 sized starter pod for the Kingtech engines :-)

P20 Kerostart ~50sec
Kolibri gas start ~25sec


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RE: Interview of r/c jet engines users&owners - 12/31/2012 11:55 AM   
xmen3k


 

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From: Perm, RUSSIA
Status: offline 		Thx a lot for your answer.
But we need to understand would you buy turbine with propan start, with 100mm diameter, 80-90N trust, weight ~0,7Kg, fuel consumption 60-70ml/min, with price about 2999USD. Or you prefer usual turbine with ker-start.
thx



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RE: Interview of r/c jet engines users&owners - 12/31/2012 12:37 PM   
Henke Torphammar



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quote:

ORIGINAL: xmen3k

Thx a lot for your answer.
But we need to understand would you buy turbine with propan start, with 100mm diameter, 80-90N trust, weight ~0,7Kg, fuel consumption 60-70ml/min, with price about 2999USD. Or you prefer usual turbine with ker-start.
thx




For me performance is more important then kerostart, specially as I fly small jets. I choose gas start with much better performance and feel good about it


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RE: Interview of r/c jet engines users&owners - 12/31/2012 12:47 PM   
Robrow



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Status: offline 		Kero or gas start do not make any difference to performance.

Rob.

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RE: Interview of r/c jet engines users&owners - 12/31/2012 12:50 PM   
xmen3k


 

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Status: offline 		I try to say that we could offer better perfomance but only with propan& air start so would you buy turbine with it or you any way prefer old kero-start turbines.


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RE: Interview of r/c jet engines users&owners - 12/31/2012 1:00 PM   
Jgwright


 

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Status: online 		There is no doubt the average jet flyer prefers to have kero start as it reduces the amount of things to bring to the flying field and would expect it of new engines. You should set this up as a poll.

To your engine proposal, is the consumption 70ml at a steady 90N for 1 minute? This is a huge reduction from all engines currently on the market. Maybe you are quoting an average consumption?

John

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RE: Interview of r/c jet engines users&owners - 12/31/2012 1:01 PM   
xmen3k


 

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Status: offline 		yes it's correct about 70ml/min for 80-90N trust. Reducion in consumption will be because it's turbofan engine.


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RE: Interview of r/c jet engines users&owners - 12/31/2012 1:32 PM   
Jgwright


 

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Status: online 		OK now I understand. Well new technology is always welcome and if you can bring this to the market you will be the first, well done!

Kero start is not that difficult to achieve and worth the effort to install it.

John

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RE: Interview of r/c jet engines users&owners - 12/31/2012 1:45 PM   
xmen3k


 

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Status: offline 		Yes, it's not difficulty to use kre-start but in our it's not possible to use same kero-burner as on the market it's too big for us, make our owne burner it's time and money for buyers. So now we try to understand is it better to make engine fater with propan start and cheaper or take more time and put kero-burner


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RE: Interview of r/c jet engines users&owners - 12/31/2012 2:58 PM   
Dr Honda



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quote:

ORIGINAL: xmen3k

Thx a lot for your answer.
But we need to understand would you buy turbine with propan start, with 100mm diameter, 80-90N trust, weight ~0,7Kg, fuel consumption 60-70ml/min, with price about 2999USD. Or you prefer usual turbine with ker-start.
thx





I can tell you right now that no one will buy a new companies turbine for that price. Wren just brought out their Jubilee for $1900... the Jet Munt VT-80 is $1900, and the Kingtech is $1800.

If you want to have a chance in the USA market... your 80~90n turbine will need to have Kero start, and be less than $2000 USD. People will buy gas start engines... but they need to be even less.

Just my 2 cents.


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RE: Interview of r/c jet engines users&owners - 12/31/2012 3:06 PM   
Dr Honda



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quote:

ORIGINAL: xmen3k

yes it's correct about 70ml/min for 80-90N trust. Reducion in consumption will be because it's turbofan engine.




Ok... That makes a difference.

So... instead of keeping secrets... tell us EXACTLY what your company is going to bring to market... and we can give you REAL feedback. When you ask a cryptic question, with only half the info... then the answers you will get are not going to be real.


But... I can tell you that most guys don't want to go back to air start... and honestly... there is no reason to do it. Regardless if you are going to build a turbo fan... you can still put a pod on the front.

< Message edited by Dr Honda -- 12/31/2012 3:44 PM >


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RE: Interview of r/c jet engines users&owners - 12/31/2012 3:38 PM   
RCISFUN



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quote:

ORIGINAL: xmen3k

Thx a lot for your answer.
But we need to understand would you buy turbine with propan start, with 100mm diameter, 80-90N trust, weight ~0,7Kg, fuel consumption 60-70ml/min, with price about 2999USD. Or you prefer usual turbine with ker-start.
thx





A commercially available Turbo Fan would be unique for sure, maybe enough to justify the higher price.

However as mentioned already there are plenty of main stream companies with established records, service facilities, customer support, etc, that have a very good product for a lower price. This is a very niche market; if you want to be successful and be able to sell for a premium price then you have to bring something vastly different to the market, additionally it is imperative to have an established and reliable service / customer support network.

Speaking for myself, I would not buy a product that I have to ship half way around the world for service.

As for the Kero start vs. Propane start question I started with a propane start turbine and resisted the kero start offerings until I bought my Jet Central Cheetah, now I would not trade it!

I summed up the specification you mentioned in a table, see attached:

It would be real interesting to see a Turbine that produces 20 Lbs of thrust that only weighs 1.5 Lbs and consumes 2 oz. / min....


Attachments
Click to see fullsize image.
Click for fullsize


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RE: Interview of r/c jet engines users&owners - 12/31/2012 4:06 PM   
Robrow



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Status: offline 		Might be an idea to give us some pics/video if you have a working engine.

Rob.

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RE: Interview of r/c jet engines users&owners - 12/31/2012 4:36 PM   
xmen3k


 

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Status: offline 		Thzfor your feed back but it's hard to make two thinks on engine because of it's very small - it's electric motor and kero-birner. That's why it's could start only by air from car air compressor and from propan. WE will present our engine later by company when we end test. Right now we need to understand is it possible to sell it with propan start or need to close this project and make different engine.


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RE: Interview of r/c jet engines users&owners - 12/31/2012 7:18 PM   
junkjet


 

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Status: offline 		dont think propane start would be a negative attribute if engine is a good value and quality product. however the air start would present a difficulty. I believe that for a true fan engine modelers will overcome the difficulties to own and operate this engine.


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RE: Interview of r/c jet engines users&owners - 12/31/2012 10:24 PM   
grbaker



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quote:

That's why it's could start only by air from car air compressor and from propan.


Not sure what you mean by car air compressor. Can you explain a little? I don't mind propane start at all, but I really do not want to have to use a scuba tank.

< Message edited by grbaker -- 1/1/2013 3:32 AM >

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RE: Interview of r/c jet engines users&owners - 1/1/2013 1:57 AM   
xmen3k


 

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Status: offline 		Thx a lot everybody whom asnwer. Happy New Year.  About air compressor for car - on a top of the engin will be plugin connection for your car air compressor to start rotate HP stage.  We use this becase whole engine is very smal and if we would be use electric start it will be needs for gears with dimensions about just 3mm so we going to use air compressor start. It's not that hard for us to make our owne kero-burner and electric start but it's will take a lot of time and the end product will be cost much higher for buyers than now, that's why i try to get faadback about readyness of the marker for that kind engine.


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RE: Interview of r/c jet engines users&owners - 1/1/2013 3:35 AM   
husafreak


 

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Status: offline 		I'm new to jets but what I learned was kero or gas start is optional, doesn't matter, but I will use the kero start feature on my Cheetah. Air start is very old fashioned, but worth it if you get a great deal on a used engine. Turbo fan means new technology though, some will be willing to go back to air start just to have it. But if it is very expensive then I don't think it will sell well. I do think starting small is a good idea, people will try new technology in a less expensive airframe. Like a 100 or something. oh yeah, as a newby I am very surprised how many jets have short flight times, this a function of tank size more than anything, little engines at full power or big engines at low power both equal similar burn rates. I think the number one sales feature of a turbo fan would be low fuel consumption. if you can do that the demand would be pretty high.

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RE: Interview of r/c jet engines users&owners - 1/1/2013 7:02 AM   
Robrow



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quote:

ORIGINAL: xmen3k

Thx a lot everybody whom asnwer. Happy New Year.  About air compressor for car - on a top of the engin will be plugin connection for your car air compressor to start rotate HP stage.  We use this becase whole engine is very smal and if we would be use electric start it will be needs for gears with dimensions about just 3mm so we going to use air compressor start. It's not that hard for us to make our owne kero-burner and electric start but it's will take a lot of time and the end product will be cost much higher for buyers than now, that's why i try to get faadback about readyness of the marker for that kind engine.



I don't think using a car (12v) air compressor would be an issue as most of us already use them for the landing gear. Also gas start no problem.

Sounds like your prototype is a 2 shaft engine? Rotating HP stage with air is how we start the fullsize engines.

Rob.

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RE: Interview of r/c jet engines users&owners - 1/1/2013 7:29 AM   
xmen3k


 

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Status: offline 		Yes you are right engine is two shaft.


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