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Mixing Glow Fuel - 12/31/2012 8:54 PM   
Conrod


 

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Status: offline 		Hi
Is it best to mix Glow fuel by Volume or weight? Does anyone know what the fuel manufactures do?
Geoff

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RE: Mixing Glow Fuel - 12/31/2012 9:24 PM   
1QwkSport2.5r



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Conrod

Hi
Is it best to mix Glow fuel by Volume or weight? Does anyone know what the fuel manufactures do?
Geoff

I'll bet 95% of fuel mfg's mix by volume. Mixing by weight is more accurate but overkill IMO. I mix my fuel by volume.

You end up with a slightly higher nitro content mixing by volume, 20% nitro is closer to 25% in reality. Oil and methanol is pretty close.

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RE: Mixing Glow Fuel - 1/1/2013 12:25 AM   
hauckf


 

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Status: offline 		We beat the "by volume or by weight" question to death about 10 yrs. ago in this forum. At that time I surveyed all of the popular brands of fuel and Byrons was the only one that mixed by weight, all the rest mixed by volume. I don't know for sure, but I would bet the same is true today. Therefore, if you want to mix a fuel that is equivalent to XYZ Fuels 15% nirto, 18% oil fuel, mix it by volume.

The accuracy will depend on the accuracy of the measuring device whichever method you use. Byron's argued that mixing by weight was more accurate and more consistant batch to batch because each component has a different coefficient of thermal expansion. Therefore, a gallon of fuel mixed by volume when the methanol etc. are at 60 degrees F will be different that a gallon mixed by volume when the ingredients are at 90 degrees F. If the two batches had been mixed by weight they would be the same. That is true, but I did the math and the difference doesn't amount to a pinch of poop. The real difference between the two methods, as !Q pointed out, is that 15% nitro, 18% syn. oil fuel by weight is equivalent to about 11.4% nitro and 15.6% oil by volume.

Bottom line, we're not making atomic clocks here, we're mixing fuel. Just mix it by volume as carefully as you can and go flying. Differences in air temperature, humidity, barametric pressure, etc. will have way more effect on your engine's performance than minor variations in your fuel.

Whew, talk about beating a simple question to death!


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RE: Mixing Glow Fuel - 1/1/2013 11:24 AM   
Conrod


 

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Status: offline 		Thanks for the replies. Volume it is.
Geoff

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RE: Mixing Glow Fuel - 1/8/2013 10:50 PM   
jcvt


 

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From: santiagoRep. Dom, DOMINICAN REPUBLIC
Status: offline 		I posted this some time ago , but still working for me...

How to mix your own 2 stroke fuel:

1)Buy and drink 5 beers .
2)Fill 4 cans with Metanol.
3)Fill 1 can with castor oil.
3)Mix the cans in gallon and shake.
5)Go flying

It will work with coke or water but not with whisky.

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RE: Mixing Glow Fuel - 1/14/2013 10:33 AM   
GellanWhite


 

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Status: offline 		As far from my knowledge they mix by volume only and one of my uncle who is a manufacturer also does the same.
 heating oil companies nj



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RE: Mixing Glow Fuel - 1/14/2013 8:50 PM   
Jim Thomerson



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Status: offline 		Because both castor oil and nitromethane have both higher cost and higher specific gravities than methanol, a gallon of fuel mixed to certain percentages by weight costs less to produce than one mixed to the same percentages by volume.

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RE: Mixing Glow Fuel - 1/26/2013 9:38 AM   
gerryndennis


 

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Status: offline 		Gentlemen,

Some of you are assuming that the weight used by the manufacturers who mix by weight is the numerically the same as the volume used by the mix by volume manufacturers. In other words the weight manufacturer uses 15% of the weight of the final gallon to weigh his nitro to make 15% nitro fuel.

Are you sure this is what happens? How would you even do this mathematically? If you don't know what the final weight of the gallon is going to be how do you know what 15 % of that is? Or do you weigh a gallon of methanol and use 15% of that?

If it was me I would weigh 15 gallons of nitro, 20 gallons of oil, and 65 gallons of methanol all at the same temperature. Then when I wanted to make one hundred gallons of glow fuel I would mix together those weights (or multiples of if I wanted more or less product) of ingredient to get a fuel that is exactly 15% nitro by VOLUME even though I used the WEIGHT method.

My fuel would be identical to the mix by volume guys but I would have the advantage of more consistent fuel with temperature (it's not insignificant) plus the availability of commercial mixing equipment.

It doesn't make sense to rip your customers off by short changing them nitro and oil, I doubt you would last long in the model industry with that reputation. You'd be breaking the labelling laws here in New Zealand anyway, I presume yours are similar?

Back to the original question, I think it's way easier to mix by volume when you are mixing small amounts for yourself and that's what I do. I like jcvt's method, it could be done with one can but is probably better with five in case you lose count while refilling the one.

Hope that is some use Geoff,

Dave H

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RE: Mixing Glow Fuel - 1/26/2013 10:31 AM   
Nitrovein



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quote:

ORIGINAL: gerryndennis

Gentlemen,

Some of you are assuming that the weight used by the manufacturers who mix by weight is the numerically the same as the volume used by the mix by volume manufacturers. In other words the weight manufacturer uses 15% of the weight of the final gallon to weigh his nitro to make 15% nitro fuel.

Are you sure this is what happens? How would you even do this mathematically? If you don't know what the final weight of the gallon is going to be how do you know what 15 % of that is? Or do you weigh a gallon of methanol and use 15% of that?

If it was me I would weigh 15 gallons of nitro, 20 gallons of oil, and 65 gallons of methanol all at the same temperature. Then when I wanted to make one hundred gallons of glow fuel I would mix together those weights (or multiples of if I wanted more or less product) of ingredient to get a fuel that is exactly 15% nitro by VOLUME even though I used the WEIGHT method.

My fuel would be identical to the mix by volume guys but I would have the advantage of more consistent fuel with temperature (it's not insignificant) plus the availability of commercial mixing equipment.

It doesn't make sense to rip your customers off by short changing them nitro and oil, I doubt you would last long in the model industry with that reputation. You'd be breaking the labelling laws here in New Zealand anyway, I presume yours are similar?

Back to the original question, I think it's way easier to mix by volume when you are mixing small amounts for yourself and that's what I do. I like jcvt's method, it could be done with one can but is probably better with five in case you lose count while refilling the one.

Hope that is some use Geoff,

Dave H

Most things a measured in different ways in different parts of the world, it´s not just RC-fuel. Europe has an history of measuring by volume, America by weight, I don´t believe there is an international standard.
One of the large fuel-mfg in USA; http://www.morganfuel.com/template/doc/Morgan-Fuel-MSDS.pdf

You take the weight of the individual parts and mix accordingly;
1 kg fuel could be
70% Methanol = 700g / 0,791= 884,95 ml
20% Klotz BeNol = 200g / 0,962= 207,9ml
10% Nitro = 100g / 1,138= 87,87ml
// 1180,72ml of fuel

I use volume to calculate my own fuel, but measure in weight as that is easier for me. As for the larger fuel-mfg, we can only guess and test different fuels until we are happy.


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RE: Mixing Glow Fuel - 1/27/2013 9:12 AM   
gerryndennis


 

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ORIGINAL: Nitrovein



You take the weight of the individual parts and mix accordingly;
1 kg fuel could be
70% Methanol = 700g / 0,791= 884,95 ml
20% Klotz BeNol = 200g / 0,962= 207,9ml
10% Nitro = 100g / 1,138= 87,87ml
// 1180,72ml of fuel



Thanks Nitrovein,

That makes sense, now the question becomes do you sell that fuel as 10% nitro fuel, 10% nitro by weight or 87.87/1180.72X100 ie 7.4% nitro fuel

My guess would be that the latter would be the case, in which case no one is being ripped off, but the assumption is always for option one.

I would be interested to know for sure.

Dave H

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RE: Mixing Glow Fuel - 1/27/2013 11:57 AM   
1QwkSport2.5r



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Status: online 		Most fuel companies mix by volume, which will actually give you a little more nitro than advertised. A gallon of 20% nitro is closer to 25%. If you want to mix fuel and be more precise/save some pennies, just adjust your volume measurement so your target nitro content is what you intended it to be. I have a post here somewhere where I broke down the 4 chemicals I use and their weight/mL. Doing a few math conversions will tell you how much by weight of each chemical you need and what the final gallon weight is.

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*Real* glow fuel is made with Methanol, Nitromethane, and Castor oil.

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RE: Mixing Glow Fuel - 1/27/2013 1:40 PM   
Nitrovein



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quote:

ORIGINAL: gerryndennis


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nitrovein



You take the weight of the individual parts and mix accordingly;
1 kg fuel could be
70% Methanol = 700g / 0,791= 884,95 ml
20% Klotz BeNol = 200g / 0,962= 207,9ml
10% Nitro = 100g / 1,138= 87,87ml
// 1180,72ml of fuel



Thanks Nitrovein,

That makes sense, now the question becomes do you sell that fuel as 10% nitro fuel, 10% nitro by weight or 87.87/1180.72X100 ie 7.4% nitro fuel

My guess would be that the latter would be the case, in which case no one is being ripped off, but the assumption is always for option one.

I would be interested to know for sure.

Dave H

That is a good question and hard to tell if you don´t know the mfg or someone that has a lab.
Morgan fuel specifies that it´s in weight, but when they don´t spec it, we can only guess...

If I would give my own subjective view of what I think, then it would be that most mfg use weight and then add slightly more to it to be able and tell us that they have more then what´s specified.
Also, as long as they don´t specify what method they use, they can use both... Weight for nitro and volume for oil and methanol.

One thing to remember also is that here in Europe they do take fuel samples in car racing as there is a limit in how much nitro that´s allowed.
As most of the fuel mfg use PAG for synthetics in their fuel and those oil are slightly heavier, they couldn't mix nitro in volume and still be legal for racing (in high oil % fuel). Just sayin'...

I did try some fuel mixes to see when it was close to the bought racing fuel and right around 20% by volume it was close to a couple of top brands that´s 25% fuel...
A very subjective approach as I don´t know what oil etc they use, but it gave me an idea of how things really are.

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RE: Mixing Glow Fuel - 1/28/2013 1:17 AM   
downunder



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Status: offline 		Historically fuel components have always been blended by volume because, way back when, commercial fuels weren't readily available and we all mixed our own the easy way, by volume. Ever since then it's always assumed that whatever's on the label of commercial fuels refers to the volume of each component but that does leave a loophole for a manufacturer to blend by weight and not mention it on the label which does in fact short change the volume of both oil and nitro. One way to test (at least as far as oil quantity) is to do an evaporation test by putting a known small quantity of fuel in an open container and waiting until the methanol and nitro have all evaporated out leaving just oil. One commercial manufacturer was caught out doing this many years ago and I can only hope they changed their ways.

So volume is what should be aimed for but it can be done quite easily by weight, in fact I've just started trying it that way with a new digital scale I just got. Knowing the SG of each component it was simple to convert a volume to weight so each time I added a component I'd just zero the scale before adding the next one. It's much more accurate than eye-balling a volume but not really necessary because we're not doing rocket science here .

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RE: Mixing Glow Fuel - 1/28/2013 1:44 AM   
Nitrovein



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quote:

ORIGINAL: downunder


So volume is what should be aimed for but it can be done quite easily by weight, in fact I've just started trying it that way with a new digital scale I just got. Knowing the SG of each component it was simple to convert a volume to weight so each time I added a component I'd just zero the scale before adding the next one. It's much more accurate than eye-balling a volume but not really necessary because we're not doing rocket science here .


+1
I use a digital scale also, but I´m trying out fuel for my racing engines so I´m down at 1/10% by volume to get the results I´m after.
But I don´t see any downsides for using this approach when mixing for other engines as well. At least when/if you're trying out new blends.
It will also help keep your methanol clean when you can pour it directly in your final jug.

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RE: Mixing Glow Fuel - 2/15/2013 2:07 AM   
winglift


 

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Status: offline 		I have been mixing my own fuel for several years now and have been using a program that I highly recommend. It allows you to adjust percentages of the mix, choose the units, the volume mixed, ambient temperature, etcetera and weigh the amounts. I use a digital scale and tare the results as I add to the mixture. Its would be better if you just see it for yourself. It is freeware.
http://www.xentrik.net/software/home_brew_buddy.html

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RE: Mixing Glow Fuel - 2/24/2013 4:34 AM   
1QwkSport2.5r



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quote:

ORIGINAL: winglift

I have been mixing my own fuel for several years now and have been using a program that I highly recommend. It allows you to adjust percentages of the mix, choose the units, the volume mixed, ambient temperature, etcetera and weigh the amounts. I use a digital scale and tare the results as I add to the mixture. Its would be better if you just see it for yourself. It is freeware.
http://www.xentrik.net/software/home_brew_buddy.html

The link is dead. The download page that actually allows you to download the home brew buddy software goes to a 404 not found page. I haven't found any other valid links to the software anywhere either. Do you have the original .EXE file for the installer?

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