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RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!! - 1/4/2013 11:42 PM   
thailazer



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quote:

ORIGINAL: flyinwalenda

Looking at the pictures , it appears the right float is mounted at a different angle(tip high/tail low) than the left float. Must be the right side mount is off a bit throwing the float out of alignment. Assuming both float mounts have the same dimensions,did you check the measurements between the wing saddle and the top of each float mount on each side of the fuse? . 
A little bit off you might be able to work with but if it's as much as what shows in the pic then the water handling will be affected.


Gray Beard... Did you find anything out yet? In looking at the photo, I have to agree with flyinwalenda. Angle of incidence of both floats does not appear to be the same. Glad you getting everything right as you don't want to rush with a beautiful plane like that.

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RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!! - 1/5/2013 2:35 AM   
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Status: offline 		Gray Beard- cut the wires near a rigging point of the floats or fuse. It doesn't matter which. Just don't cut the wires near the midpoint of fuse to float span- it'll weaken everything too much. Make a cardboard jig to hold the fuse/wing at correct incidence mentioned in previous post. Also, block the floats so they don't move at their correct incidence. Measure, measure and measure again with aid of T-squares and plumb. Now use brass tube to join the previously cut wires. Sweat some solder in the joints when satisfied. Tedious but easier than bending them up again. Also, it's easier to cut wire away than to add wire. I hope this info is helpful.

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RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!! - 1/5/2013 4:19 AM   
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Status: offline 		That is helpful, never have thought to do that, I have always just bent new wire. I'll see what I have in the way of brass in the shop. Sure sounds like a good way to get the legs to the correct size. I would only need a piece of 5/32 ID tube about 5 inches long. I'll look and see what I have on hand.
If it works then it's my idea!!! Another thing I invented!!

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RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!! - 1/5/2013 3:35 PM   
ARUP


 

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Status: offline 		Here're some pics. I cut cardboard to fit fuselage and glued pieces of balsa to align the wing center section. Then I cut wood to make measurements and transferred these to wire. You can adapt this to your float setup. Like I said before- tedious but you will have near perfect alignment. I think my center section is only off by 1mm and that could easily be accounted for my shoddy building skills!

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RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!! - 1/5/2013 11:27 PM   
Gray Beard


 

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Status: offline 		Got it back in the water this afternoon. Floating perfect as to being level side to side. I had the left pontoon 1 5/8 too far back. Just getting it even with the one on the right side as sensei pointed out got it to float evenly and remove the list. Now to get the plane itself to sit with a positive incidence. That part I think I know how to fix with all the help I have been provided. I did find a stick of 5/32 ID tube so I will use it to get the incidence corrected. I decided to drill and tap it so I can tighten it up on the wire and sort of telescope the front gear legs until I get the incidence set correctly then solder it together. No reason to hard mount it unless it is set perfectly.
I would like to thank everyone for the help and I'm sorry I am so dense on this subject. Don't ever ask me anything about twins either. If you ask me anything about float plane, twins or electrics and look me in the eyes you will notice no one is home!!!
I will use my incidence meter while in my shop but then take the plane to the SPA across the street to float it to make sure it is set correctly before soldering.
Gene

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RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!! - 1/6/2013 12:21 AM   
Live Wire


 

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RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!! - 1/6/2013 2:06 AM   
Zor



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gray Beard

Got it back in the water this afternoon. Floating perfect as to being level side to side. I had the left pontoon 1 5/8 too far back. Just getting it even with the one on the right side as sensei pointed out got it to float evenly and remove the list. Now to get the plane itself to sit with a positive incidence. That part I think I know how to fix with all the help I have been provided. I did find a stick of 5/32 ID tube so I will use it to get the incidence corrected. I decided to drill and tap it so I can tighten it up on the wire and sort of telescope the front gear legs until I get the incidence set correctly then solder it together. No reason to hard mount it unless it is set perfectly.
I would like to thank everyone for the help and I'm sorry I am so dense on this subject. Don't ever ask me anything about twins either. If you ask me anything about float plane, twins or electrics and look me in the eyes you will notice no one is home!!!
I will use my incidence meter while in my shop but then take the plane to the SPA across the street to float it to make sure it is set correctly before soldering.
Gene


Gray Beard,

I do not believe you can use an incidence guage while the model is floating as it will disturb the floating line.

I would suggest to paste some tape on the outside of the floats and while floating stable mark the floatation line on each side.

You can use these lines as reference on your work bench to set up the wing incidence versus the float lines.

Zor


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RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!! - 1/6/2013 2:30 AM   
Gray Beard


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zor


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gray Beard

Got it back in the water this afternoon. Floating perfect as to being level side to side. I had the left pontoon 1 5/8 too far back. Just getting it even with the one on the right side as sensei pointed out got it to float evenly and remove the list. Now to get the plane itself to sit with a positive incidence. That part I think I know how to fix with all the help I have been provided. I did find a stick of 5/32 ID tube so I will use it to get the incidence corrected. I decided to drill and tap it so I can tighten it up on the wire and sort of telescope the front gear legs until I get the incidence set correctly then solder it together. No reason to hard mount it unless it is set perfectly.
I would like to thank everyone for the help and I'm sorry I am so dense on this subject. Don't ever ask me anything about twins either. If you ask me anything about float plane, twins or electrics and look me in the eyes you will notice no one is home!!!
I will use my incidence meter while in my shop but then take the plane to the SPA across the street to float it to make sure it is set correctly before soldering.
Gene


Gray Beard,

I do not believe you can use an incidence Gage while the model is floating as it will disturb the floating line.

I would suggest to paste some tape on the outside of the floats and while floating stable mark the flotation line on each side.

You can use these lines as reference on your work bench to set up the wing incidence versus the float lines.

Zor


Thanks, I was going to use the meter on the shop floor to get it close then use my neighbors SPA and some levels {very small} on the datum line to see how it sets on water. I buy those small bubble levels with about five of them in one then take the level apart to get the little single levels out. Sand a flat spot on them to keep them from rolling. I just tape them onto the plane so I can see them. Being a scratch/plans build I have the datum I measured everything from marked.
My Robart meter does weigh a lot and would change the way the plane is sitting. With telescoping gear legs I can do all the set up while the plane is in the water. I THINK?? It will also get me the needed prop clearances from the water. I do plan on going to a shorter three blade prop too. As it's sitting now there isn't much room from the prop to the water. I think that line on the floats would be a good idea. I will do a number of things like that and try getting it. Time to go buy some new sharpie pens too. I will be making the changes next week, I just got permission to use her SPA a few minutes ago. Across the street is way better then two miles away!! I wonder how by changing the stance of the plane will change the way the floats float?? I'm thinking it will sink a bit more to the back of them? These things are running through my head.

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RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!! - 1/6/2013 4:12 AM   
frets24


 

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Status: offline 		Gene,

You're over thinking this.

Just set the wing incidence relative to the top of the float. No point in trying to do anything while it is just floating around. (Other than admire it and imagine it zooming across the pond ) There is no real way you can staticly set or measure anything based on how it rests in the water because when the plane is moving across the water on step, the float will be nowhere near the attitude that it is at rest. If the floats came from a kit, plans or preassembled the designers already figured the "on step" datum and it is the top of the float. Set the wing relative to that and bada-bing-bada-boom; you're done!

Glad you got the listing remedied. You'll be an expert at floats in no time...then you can tackle twins

P.S. They typically sit tail low in the water as well. When you thrttle up for the take-off run the prop/thrust pulls the nose forward and down. When it get "on step"the float will assume a stable attitude; with no outside interference or control inputs it will ride how it wants to ride and that is when the slight positive wing incidence does it's thing....makes the plane lighter and faster on the float until it breaks free of the water. all you need to do is worry about keeping it in a straight line til then. Once it's clear of the water start your climb and fly the thing.

Cheers

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RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!! - 1/6/2013 4:20 AM   
Zor



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Your destination is to have the wing chord with 2 to 3 degrees of positive angle of attack during your initial acceleration for take off.

Quite obviusly the water surface is averaging horizontal. Marking the water line on the outside of the floats over some masking tape allow you to set those floats horizontal on your work bench and jam them in horizontal position using these references. Then you can use your incidence gauge to set your wing properly.

I do not see any better more reliable method. I would not use a felt marker like Sharpie; I would use a ball pen to mark the masking tape just not touching the water. A ball pen will write on the masking tape even if it got wet.

Another method is to use pieces of masking tape cut square at one end and bring the masking tape square end just to touch the water surface and stick it on above the water level. Then you do not need any marking pen. The end of the tape becomes the reference where the water level is. Obviously you need to do the marking both near the float front and also the rear. Hee! Hee!.  

Have fun

Zor


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RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!! - 1/6/2013 5:22 AM   
EJWash1



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Status: online 		Two articles for reference.

The Swoose looks great!


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RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!! - 1/6/2013 6:06 AM   
frets24


 

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Status: offline 		Zor,

Not trying to be nasty or confrontational, but......That is a horrible bit of advice

The destination is to have slight positive incidence at the end of the take-off run....when the plane is ready to fly.

The waterline at rest is completely irrelavent to setting the incidence.

At 'Dead Float' the wieght of the plane is equally distributed on the float with no dynamic forces at work. Floats are wide at the front and narrow at the rear so there is greater bouyancy at the front causing the plane to float slightly nose up. This effect is increased due to 20% of the float is ahead of the prop and the tail of the plane typically extends well beyond the stern of the float. This is by design as it is paramount in low speed, taxiing manueverabilty and handling. More importantly it keeps the plane from somersaulting on landing

If you go over to the Seaplanes forums or go through any floats mfgr's instructions it is always the deck of the floats as the reference. Never the water. It's nearly impossibe to figure what the float's attitude is going to be when it is fully onstep and "skiing" just from how it sits motionless in the water.

On the flip side...your method would be great if the waterline had any bearing so, I like the way you figure and problem solve!!

Here's a couple of diagrams to help visualize. Red is the chord line and purple is level line

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RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!! - 1/6/2013 6:29 AM   
frets24


 

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Just had a couple thoughts that no one has addressed yet:

1) I see you have an APC prop mounted...GOOD. Wood props barely last one flight. not for the reason you think either....it's not that they get waterlogged but rather the water spray hitting a propeller spinning at 9k+ shreds a wood prop as fast as gravel tossed into it would. Composit props do better but, are not invulnerable.

2) To help combat the spray coming off the floats you can put some chine strips/spray rails on them. .020 plastic works great or similar. They go from the tip of the float to just past the prop to deflct the spray from the floats. if you have "V" hull like in the pic below putting them on both sides give a slight benefit to getting onstep quicker. If you have flat bottoms just put them on the inside edges. 1/4 to 3/8" overhang is plenty. FAA required on full scale because it will tear up a metal prop too! (or similar spray mitigation in the design)

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RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!! - 1/6/2013 8:41 AM   
Zor



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quote:

ORIGINAL: frets24

Zor,

Not trying to be nasty or confrontational, but......That is a horrible bit of advice

The destination is to have slight positive incidence at the end of the take-off run....when the plane is ready to fly.

The waterline at rest is completely irrelavent to setting the incidence.

At 'Dead Float' the wieght of the plane is equally distributed on the float with no dynamic forces at work. Floats are wide at the front and narrow at the rear so there is greater bouyancy at the front causing the plane to float slightly nose up. This effect is increased due to 20% of the float is ahead of the prop and the tail of the plane typically extends well beyond the stern of the float. This is by design as it is paramount in low speed, taxiing manueverabilty and handling. More importantly it keeps the plane from somersaulting on landing

If you go over to the Seaplanes forums or go through any floats mfgr's instructions it is always the deck of the floats as the reference. Never the water. It's nearly impossibe to figure what the float's attitude is going to be when it is fully onstep and "skiing" just from how it sits motionless in the water.

On the flip side...your method would be great if the waterline had any bearing so, I like the way you figure and problem solve!!

Here's a couple of diagrams to help visualize. Red is the chord line and purple is level line


Gray Beard and frets24

I do not kow how you arrived with your sketches but I am in disagreement with those sketches.

Those sketches are showing a water line at rest that is not as we see it on full size floats.
They also show that on step would result in a negative angle of attack which again is not reality.

Note also that buoyancy exist only from the volume of water displaced below the water level and on the step the floats have just about the same angle as at rest. 

At rest the top of the floats is pretty well horizontal and parallel to the water surface.
It will also be parallel to the flight trajectory in level flight cruise.

The method I was suggesting to you is taking into consideration that perhaps the float tops in you case might not be parallel to the water surface because of the possibility that your floats might be installed at an improper location versus the CG of the airplane. If the floats are too far ahead their rear will dig in the water and if they are too far behind then the rear can be out of the water.

So I was suggesting a mehod that would avoid having to move the existing position forward or backward from their present location.


At rest the rear end bottom of the floats is just about at the water level . It may vary a bit depending on the CG location as the airplane is loaded. That would not change for a model.

I certainly also want to avoid any confrontation on this subject; consequently just proceed any way you like and I will wish you good success as a final result and I will get out of any contribution.

Best regards always,

Zor


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RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!! - 1/6/2013 4:44 PM   
frets24


 

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Status: offline 		Zor,

My intention was not to insult or antagonize you and I sincerely apologize if it came across that way. Emoticons only go so far to convey a lighthearted tone.

My information is derived from several years of flying models from floats and a couple decades of full scale float flying. The sketches are exagerated for effect..hard to perceive minute differences in angles.

I am by no measure an expert and am always open to new info where I am ignorant. As they say "there is no cure for stupid, but ignorance is treatable"...I try to avoid the first and embrace the latter.

In reading your thought process on how and why you came to the conclusions you did, just further support my statement above; "I like the way you figure and problem solve!!"

I only pass on what I understand from experience and have found to work. Your experience may vary and I respect and can learn from that and in fact have in the past. We've both been here a while at RCU
It would be a shame to lose your input just because we don't see some things from the same angle...And because I have a rough way of voicing difference of opinion.

Best regards,

Lee




The newer issue cert is kind of hard to read hence a copy of the older cert

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RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!! - 1/6/2013 6:27 PM   
Zor



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Status: offline 		fres24 and Gray Beard,

In this case I think the following fomat is best due to varying topics.

quote:

ORIGINAL: frets24

Zor,

My intention was not to insult or antagonize you and I sincerely apologize if it came across that way. Emoticons only go so far to convey a lighthearted tone.

My information is derived from several years of flying models from floats and a couple decades of full scale float flying. The sketches are exagerated for effect..hard to perceive minute differences in angles.


You DID NOT insult or antagonize me at all.
I just could not agree with the sketches and had no way to know of any exageration to emp;hasize the illustrations. It is quite obvious that important tiny angle differences are not easy to illustrate.

I tried to help Gray Beard and present a method of curing the problem not having all the facts.

I have lots of respect for your experience on floats. Personally I have only about 300 or 400 hours of teaching float flying to folks wanting a float endorsement on their private or commercial license. This was on Cessnas 172 and 175, Cessna 180 and 185. The 185 had amphibious floats and often the 185 was also used to ferry the sudents to the seaplane base on Riviere des Prairies (separating Montreal from Laval, QC).

quote:


I am by no measure an expert and am always open to new info where I am ignorant. As they say "there is no cure for stupid, but ignorance is treatable"...I try to avoid the first and embrace the latter.

In reading your thought process on how and why you came to the conclusions you did, just further support my statement above; "I like the way you figure and problem solve!!"


I like to think that expertise is very relative and depends considerably not so much on the time of experience but on the efforts exerted to understnd "what is going on".
By analogy in the machining business we had operators of metal lathes, machining centers, shapers, drill presses that had been working in machine shops for 30 years and still had never learned to select their tool. how to mix cooling fluids, and even how to organize their work for most efficient machining time and reduced production costs.

Solving problems is much more a matter of the undestanding than the experience.
In this case of Gray Beard's situation I believe the wings not sitting parallel to the water surface was due more to the angle difference between the floats than it was to one float being further ahead than the other one.

quote:


I only pass on what I understand from experience and have found to work. Your experience may vary and I respect and can learn from that and in fact have in the past. We've both been here a while at RCU
It would be a shame to lose your input just because we don't see some things from the same angle...And because I have a rough way of voicing difference of opinion.

Best regards,

Lee


Concerning the relation between the angle of the floats and the pitch attitude of the airplane sitting calmly on the water surface I believe (and have the experience) that the floats top surface is horizontal and parallel to the water surface. That will also be the situation of the angle at which the floats meet the air stream in cruising flight. That offers the minimum drag while in flight.

Now, if my understanding is correct, the wing incidence can be set either to the water surface or to the top of the floats once the floats have the same angle. I suggested to mark the water surface on the floats because it appeared obvious that the struts holding the floats were not the same (symmetrical) on both sides, the angle of the floats was not identical and the CG location in relation to the floats was not known.

On take off the pitch attitude while on the step is nearly the same as at rest. Any variation would be a bit of nose up attitude. The selection of the incidence angle to use is a matter of having the main wings to be as efficient as possible while in cuise flight. It boils down to the best lift to drag ratio of the airfoil and the selection of engine power for the gross weight of the airplane.

So much to explain the basis of my cure recommendations.

Just carry on _ _ _ 

Zor

Edited 14:54 EST to change em;hasize to emphasize


< Message edited by Zor -- 1/6/2013 8:06 PM >

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RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!! - 1/6/2013 8:18 PM   
EJWash1



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Try this site:


Maybe some answers there.

Cheers!



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RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!! - 1/7/2013 12:20 AM   
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Status: offline 		Thanks for that. Been there more then once!!
Today I set the top of the floats at zero incidence then measured the fuse height. Then I put the meter on the wing and lifted the fuse until the wing was at +3 degrees and measured the fuse again, it has to come up 2 1/4 inches to get that 3 degrees of positive incidence. I will be working on that this week then float it again.
What a bunch or work but everyone says I will really enjoy flying a water plane. It better be a big bunch of fun!!!

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RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!! - 1/9/2013 11:45 PM   
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Status: offline 		At last, after messing with it for days and using a combination of suggestions I have the swoose back up on floats. I have the top of the floats at zero incidence and the plane is setting at +3 degrees at the wing. I managed to get the steps set at the CG or where the CG was, by moving the floats forward it made the plane nose heavy!! Not a problem, I will take the car to the tire shop tomorrow for a wheel balance and rotation and pick up some new lead strips then put th CG back where it belongs.
As suggested, I am leaving the side skirts off until after maiden.
I have never been sicker of looking at one plane in my life!!! If I ever set up another plane on floats it will be with more conventional mounts, wire legs suck!!!!!!!!!

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RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!! - 1/10/2013 4:17 PM   
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Status: offline 		Sounds good, I assume that you know this, but make sure that you put the weights on the floats to balance, that way, it will you won't change the plane when you convert back to standard gear.

Jon

I am looking forward to more updates.

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RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!! - 1/10/2013 6:12 PM   
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From: Hemderson, NV, USA
Status: offline 		That part I knew!! It's one reason I knew something was off when the plane CGed perfectly when I put it on floats. They should have changed the CG somewhat but didn't. Now with the step in the right location the plane is nose heavy. I have two ounces of lead screwed to the motor mount that may just put it where it belongs. The lead is just screwed on with servo screws. I'll see what happens when I remove the lead. I forgot all about it until know.

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(in reply to Minnreefer)
       Post #: 71

RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!! - 1/10/2013 10:41 PM   
Zor



Posts: 2768
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From: Ontario, ON, CANADA
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[
As the CG moves backward, do not get the rear of the floats too much in the water. That would make the model difficult to steer on the surface.

See ideal floating taxying attitude in the pic below. Note that the float tops are not quite parallel to the water surface due to prop wash on full up elevators and the floats front moving forward in the water.

Zor



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(in reply to Gray Beard)
       Post #: 72

RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!! - 1/10/2013 11:42 PM   
Gray Beard


 

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From: Hemderson, NV, USA
Status: offline 		I have no scanner on this puter or I would be able to show the photos of Nick Ziroli standing with this plane in the water and how the floats are under water for about one third of the aft part. There design and set up will never allow them to sit like the drawing is showing. On step just before take off the floats are almost half under water. With the step needing to be in a certain place and the plane requiring the correct CG how they float is how they float. To get this plane to float like in the drawing I would have to move the step back by about two inches.
I didn't get a chance to float it today but it is finished. As in done!! I used a number of peoples advise and help to get it finished and I thank everyone. As soon as I get it back in the water I will post some photos. I'm sure there will be minor adjustments but it's finished. Is what it is!!

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(in reply to Zor)
       Post #: 73

RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!! - 1/11/2013 12:08 AM   
Gray Beard


 

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From: Hemderson, NV, USA
Status: offline 		If this loads up it is photos of the 1989 build article showing how nicks plane floated.

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(in reply to Gray Beard)
       Post #: 74

RE: Houston, I have a problem!!!! - 1/11/2013 6:43 AM   
Zor



Posts: 2768
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From: Ontario, ON, CANADA
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The picture I posted represent the typical floating of full size floatplanes.

Of course any model builder can adapt or use whatever makes him comfortable with his model.

If he likes to have the rear one-third of the floats length completely under water that is his privilege.

That is just about what I see in the pdf file attachment top picture.
In the second picture the plane has not yet reached the "on the step" attitude to gain the take off speed.

Note that for modelers a powerfull engine (motor) and prop can pull the model airborne regardless of its attitude. It does not have to be "realistic flying".

The aim is to have fun flying our own way.

Zor



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(in reply to Gray Beard)
       Post #: 75

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