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RE: ethanol - 1/6/2013 2:07 AM   
az3d


 

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Status: offline 		Hey combatpigg you are right. We should just be held accountable to our own stupidity. Have you checked the prices at the grocery store lately?

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RE: ethanol - 1/6/2013 2:11 AM   
az3d


 

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Status: offline 		Check this out combatpigg.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/industries/food/2011-02-09-corn-low_N.htm

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RE: ethanol - 1/6/2013 2:31 AM   
combatpigg



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Status: offline 		I am never shocked by food prices. I am shocked by fuel prices. With common sense you can see that fuel prices dictate the cost of everything else. You don't need to plug your brain into the news media every night to figure that out.
Have you ever managed 1000 acres of land..? If so, who is supposed to DICTATE to you how you should decide to earn your keep and work your land..?
Your idealism would have been right in lock step with the Soviet's failed scheme.
The Mall Rat Cubicle types who read USA Today have their own version of reality, but the 5% who are the real producers have their own version as well.
I only hope that Social Darwinism eventually wins out when SHTF.
Let's first IGNORE the problem of the one's who spawn 4-5 children per family who have no hope or CAPABILITY of feeding their own and then that problem will eventually prove unsustainable and it will go away.
This attitude might require me to defend what is mine, but I will rather live like that type of a man than the type who tries to pay "ransome" to placate the 85 IQers who might threaten your tranquility if you don't gibs dem dat..


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RE: ethanol - 1/6/2013 2:44 AM   
TLH101



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Status: offline 		Nobody, and I mean nobody, but the EPA, the corn lobby , and the ethanol producers, support ethanol. The Sierra Club, you know, the tree huggers, don't even support it, because it's production, causes more pollution, than it prevents. Every auto manufacturer, domestic or foriegn are against it. The only reason there is even production, is because of government subsidies.
You people need to get your heads out of the sand, and do some research.
Ethanol is only good for those who's pockets are being lined.

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RE: ethanol - 1/6/2013 3:00 AM   
combatpigg



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quote:

ORIGINAL: TLH101

Nobody, and I mean nobody, but the EPA, the corn lobby , and the ethanol producers, support ethanol. The Sierra Club, you know, the tree huggers, don't even support it, because it's production, causes more pollution, than it prevents. Every auto manufacturer, domestic or foriegn are against it. The only reason there is even production, is because of government subsidies.
You people need to get your heads out of the sand, and do some research.
Ethanol is only good for those who's pockets are being lined.


So, you see this as just an evil, self serving, get rich quick plot of Uncle Sam's...?


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RE: ethanol - 1/6/2013 3:55 AM   
cloudancer03


 

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Status: offline 		forget using this crap.go to webstie called pure-gas.org..it gives names and address of gas stations selling etanol free gas.in my area there are several.its inthe 4.oo plus range but thats cheap.they usually have the gas for race vehicles but will gladly sell you the etanol free gas no problems.my engines hve never seen regular gas.

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RE: ethanol - 1/6/2013 4:44 AM   
jessiej



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quote:

ORIGINAL: colmo-RCU

It's on FOX,why would you believe anything Glen Beck's network tells you?


Which network (or other source) do you trust?

Jess

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RE: ethanol - 1/6/2013 7:23 AM   
HighPlains


 

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Status: online 		CP is correct that energy costs drive the cost on everything else. The real driver of cost of products made from corn is not the ethanol industry, but the increadible amount of corn, soybeans, wheat, and rice that are exported to Asian markets. There was not much demand for corn before ethanol and exports, but thanks to all the jobs exported to China and India and a number of other up and coming countries, corn prices finally got above the cost of production. Now that those countries have developed a middle class working on production lines that used to be here, they want a better diet and now have the money to buy it. So the next time you are buying food and clothes at Wally World, your food costs more and the socks and tee shirts cost less because it's a world economy.

If you are paying $4/gallon for "real gas" without ethanol, fine by me. I'll keep using E10 for $3.05/gallon and be equally happy.

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RE: ethanol - 1/6/2013 2:17 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: combatpigg


quote:

ORIGINAL: az3d

The biggest problem with ethanol is we are we taking food and making something else out of it that is abundant (energy in the form of oil) when people need that food. Even the UN told us to stop. What a terrible joke.

The UN is crying about all the 85 IQ people who continue to have 4-5 children and who have no hope of getting fed from the sweat of their own parents labor. Why should WE be held accountable for the stupidity of others..?
If Food production is so important then why did the US ship over 50 million metric tons of corn to forgin countries than ever before ... that was before the drought of 2012 of course.  another question  why does Brazil have only Ethonal or Disele for fuel, No gasoline?  Don't Indy Cars use Methonal same as Nitro Motors?
                                    
Market Year Exports Unit of Measure Growth Rate
2006 53987 (1000 MT) -0.39 %
2007 61913 (1000 MT) 14.68 %
2008 46965 (1000 MT) -24.14 %
2009 50295 (1000 MT) 7.09 %
2010 46590 (1000 MT) -7.37 %
2011 39184 (1000 MT) -15.90 %
2012 29211 (1000 MT) -25.45 %




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RE: ethanol - 1/6/2013 2:29 PM   
jester_s1


 

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Status: offline 		It takes .85 gallons of diesel fuel to produce the corn to make one gallon of ethanol. E85 and E10 are a way for the government to look like they are doing something about oil dependence, not a way to actually solve the problem. If someone were to design tractors that would run on pure ethanol we might have something, but that creates a whole host of other problems.

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RE: ethanol - 1/6/2013 3:05 PM   
warbird addict


 

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Status: offline 		$3.05 a gallon for E-10 ! We're paying $3.80 for it in upstate N.Y.
It may be isolated to my Dodge with a 5.7 Hemi but I get 100 miles +/- more per tankful with Non Ethanol fuel than I do with the E-10 and the only place I can still get it is Vermont which for whatever reason sells the non Ethanol for the same price as the E-10.
Yes maybe most places sell the non E-10 for a premium over the E10 but to me it would be worth it just purely due to the extra mileage, why else would BP, EXXON, MOBil and the lot be boasting astronmical profits and claiming that E-10 is the wonder cure for the environment, HMMMM 25% decrease in mileage equals a 25% increase in net sales equals Uncle Sam gets a 25% increase in taxes collected on said fuel EVERYTIME it changes hands right on down to the guy pumping it in his tank.
Just a personal observation but if you ask me E-10 is nothing more than a money maker for everyone involved EXCEPT the end user who takes it in the backside.







quote:

ORIGINAL: HighPlains

CP is correct that energy costs drive the cost on everything else. The real driver of cost of products made from corn is not the ethanol industry, but the increadible amount of corn, soybeans, wheat, and rice that are exported to Asian markets. There was not much demand for corn before ethanol and exports, but thanks to all the jobs exported to China and India and a number of other up and coming countries, corn prices finally got above the cost of production. Now that those countries have developed a middle class working on production lines that used to be here, they want a better diet and now have the money to buy it. So the next time you are buying food and clothes at Wally World, your food costs more and the socks and tee shirts cost less because it's a world economy.

If you are paying $4/gallon for ''real gas'' without ethanol, fine by me. I'll keep using E10 for $3.05/gallon and be equally happy.



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RE: ethanol - 1/6/2013 3:32 PM   
JPMacG


 

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Status: offline 		It's not the government nor EPA that wants it. It is the corn lobby and the politicians that are influenced by the corn lobby.

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RE: ethanol - 1/6/2013 3:46 PM   
jessiej



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quote:

ORIGINAL: az3d

The biggest problem with ethanol is we are we taking food and making something else out of it that is abundant (energy in the form of oil) when people need that food. Even the UN told us to stop. What a terrible joke.


My natural instinct is to oppose any thing favored by the UN. That organization has zero regard for the well-being of the US. In the case of ethanol, however use of corn to make alcohol for fuel is patently ridiculous for this nation, especially in time of drought. Watch beef prices in coming months.

I have little interest in the affairs of other nations, but it would seem that use of ethanol as fuel makes more sense in places like Brazil where the abundance of sugar cane lends to far more efficient alcohol production.

jess

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RE: ethanol - 1/6/2013 3:58 PM   
HighPlains


 

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Status: online 		$3.80 a gallon, you are getting it from the Empire state too! You also have the worst road system of any state that I have lived in, I partly because of terrain, partly due to the fact that everything was laided out two centuries ago. The three years I lived and drove in Rochester were interesting compared to Kansas, Texas, California, and Virginia. However, hard to get lost in upstate NY, since it seemed like every road was named for the two towns it connected, but never went around. So for someone used to much wider spaces, it seemed like stop and go driving. Although it was refreshing having moved there from California that at least you have the "go" part of driving. I would tell friends out there that a traffic jam was three cars together all going the speeding limit, while in California you sat on roads marked for much higher speeds and moved a couple car lengths at a time. Ugh!

Unfortunately for the consumer, what we call "regular gasoline" is a complex blend of lots of chemicals and there is no standard formula. Worst yet, the oil companies have had enough time to figure out that they can put out a poorer product, yet meet the requirements of octane with the addition of ethanol which boost octane levels. Since the addition of E10 products the oil companies are getting 3% more gas from a barrel of oil that they could not use before.

So I would bet that if you took the so called pure gas and mixed 9 gallons of it with a gallon of pure ethanol, you would not see more than a 2% drop in fuel mileage. But the commerically sold E10 may be all over the map, depending on what their blend is and your geographic region. Because the last time I heard, when they spike fuel prices on one coast or another, they claim that prices go up because each little region has it's own blend due to EPA regulations.

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RE: ethanol - 1/6/2013 4:05 PM   
geeter


 

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Status: offline 		if any of you want methonal..........not ethonal, in small quanities it's called HEET. can be bought at wawa stores pep boys etc. it's in the yellow bottle. [not iso heat either] it must be HEET in the bright yellow bottle. it's 100% methonal. it's used as gas line anti freeze.........RON

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RE: ethanol - 1/6/2013 4:13 PM   
warbird addict


 

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Status: offline 		Don't be lulled into believing that Uncle Sam isn't behind the big push for this they stand to gain the most and have the least invested in it, next in line would be the Big Oil companies, I think if one took the time to really investigate the matter the truth of it would be that the 2 primary players and the driving force behind it make a hell of alot more $$$ than the corn grower could even begin to scratch.
I think if the information were available and someone were able to look at side by side what the net take was for Uncle sam vs big oil companies vs the corn grower you'd see who was really the driving factor behind E-10 based fuel and why.
I've listened to politicians, chemists and environmentalists who were very much in the know and who had carnal knowledge of EXACTLY why E-10 was made mandatory ,state for the record that E-10 is BAD more from an economic standpoint and the only reason for it's use is to generate revenue in the form of increased use and taxes collected as a result of the increased use and of course Big Oil is absolutely going to fall in line , E-10 fuel was sold to the public as being green and good for the environment and sheeple everywhere took the bait hook line and sinker without ever giving consideration to the ripple effect it would have on the economy with higher fuel costs, and a 25% increase in usage
Our economy hinges on Fuel prices and consumtion period and the use of ethanol has driven those costs up for the end user dramaticly across the board




quote:

ORIGINAL: JPMacG

It's not the government nor EPA that wants it. It is the corn lobby and the politicians that are influenced by the corn lobby.



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RE: ethanol - 1/6/2013 4:33 PM   
HighPlains


 

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quote:

In the case of ethanol, however use of corn to make alcohol for fuel is patently ridiculous for this nation, especially in time of drought. Watch beef prices in coming months.

Corn is a small part of what it fed to cows, and the reason they feed corn to cows is it is high in proteins and carbohydrates. But the vast majority of what they feed is not corn. When a bushel of corn (56 lbs) is processed for ethanol, you get back about 2.8 gallons of ethanol, and about 24 lbs of disillers grain which is the original proteins. Usually this goes directly to a feedlot, dairy, or some other livestock production. It was actually cheaper for a while to feed that than to feed whole corn for the amount of protein, but now the two are about the same. In that original 56 lbs. of corn, 15% was just water (about 8 lbs worth), so a bushel of corn really has about 24 lbs of proteins, and 24 lbs of carbohydrates. When the distillers grain is dryed out, it can be shipped anywhere in the world, and much goes to fish farms in asia.

The ethanol plant that is about 20 miles away has moved away from using corn, and now uses milo instead. They are also moving away from using natual gas to operate, but are installing digesters which take animal waste and process it for methane (which is truely "natural gas").

Now if you go back 5 or 10 years, you will remember that the "news" was all about how corn sweetners were making us all fat. Now it's "making ethanol is starving the world" (and we are all goin to die!). The media only engages in group think, which is an oxymoron. Prices are set by market expectations, and corn acres planted are competeing against wheat acres, and cotton acres, and alfalfa acres, and about 8 or 10 other crops. The fact that world population had gone from 2.7 billion to 7.0 billion in my lifetime, and that there are another billion or two in the middle class has far more to do with prices of everything. It will only get worse.

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RE: ethanol - 1/6/2013 6:31 PM   
JPMacG


 

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Status: offline 		This article is dated, but I think the conclusions have not changed much.


http://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/renewables/loser-cornocopia


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RE: ethanol - 1/6/2013 8:05 PM   
combatpigg



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Status: offline 		More food for thought......http://www.businessweek.com/stories/2006-05-18/ethanol-myths-and-realities
I like the idea of at least taking baby steps away from OPEC dependency.
There is already millions of dollars worth of corn specific equipment in the USA so naturally corn seems to be the plant of choice to grow in the USA mainland.


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RE: ethanol - 1/6/2013 8:48 PM   
warbird addict


 

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Status: offline 		but yet the jist of the story is we the end user take it in the shorts , good for government BAD for us in every instance ethanol has been stated and proven a bad MODEL for us the end user and for the overall health of our economy which only serves to further reinforce my statement that E-10 was designed and enforced as a means to fatten the pockets of Big Government and Big Oil it's a win win situation for everyone but us the end user.
Damn shame our own Gov't would flush the economy down the jon to serve it's own interests at our expense after all we just pay this nations bills not like we really enter into the picture and bear some consideration for our well being.
Hate to be skeptical but it's been my experience having served in a combat zone that what's in the best interests of big gov't will get you killed and from what I've seen their philosphy is no different concerning the civilian sector, big gov't has and always will protect it's own survival ahead of and before yours and mine, been there done that and have the medals to prove it.
I've been to the 10 story underground bunkers built to house, feed and insure the survival of big gov't and big gov't alone in the event of a disaster and I didn't see much if anything that showed any concern or provision for the rest of us, so believe only half of what you hear and only half of what you can prove and somewhere in the middle you might find the truth, the media !!!!!PHFFFTTT they are only as reliable as the information they are being FED which is totally biased and designed to feed you misinformation provided by propagandists who stand to benefit from your being gullable and willing to believe whatever you are told .

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RE: ethanol - 1/6/2013 9:23 PM   
dirtybird


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warbird addict

but yet the jist of the story is we the end user take it in the shorts , good for government BAD for us in every instance ethanol has been stated and proven a bad MODEL for us the end user and for the overall health of our economy which only serves to further reinforce my statement that E-10 was designed and enforced as a means to fatten the pockets of Big Government and Big Oil it's a win win situation for everyone but us the end user.
Damn shame our own Gov't would flush the economy down the jon to serve it's own interests at our expense after all we just pay this nations bills not like we really enter into the picture and bear some consideration for our well being.
Hate to be skeptical but it's been my experience having served in a combat zone that what's in the best interests of big gov't will get you killed and from what I've seen their philosphy is no different concerning the civilian sector, big gov't has and always will protect it's own survival ahead of and before yours and mine, been there done that and have the medals to prove it.
I've been to the 10 story underground bunkers built to house, feed and insure the survival of big gov't and big gov't alone in the event of a disaster and I didn't see much if anything that showed any concern or provision for the rest of us, so believe only half of what you hear and only half of what you can prove and somewhere in the middle you might find the truth, the media !!!!!PHFFFTTT they are only as reliable as the information they are being FED which is totally biased and designed to feed you misinformation provided by propagandists who stand to benefit from your being gullable and willing to believe whatever you are told .


You had better keep your tin hat on.
Those trails you sometimes behind aircraft is actually big government spraying E10 to keep the price up.

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RE: ethanol - 1/6/2013 9:47 PM   
HoundDog


 

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Not to get Political but the national average for a gallon of regular gasoline at the time of the last presidential inauguration  was a $1.84      How soon we forget.



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RE: ethanol - 1/6/2013 10:13 PM   
HighPlains


 

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Status: online 		Interesting article CP, especially this part:
quote:

Michael Wang, a scientist at the Energy Dept.-funded Argonne National Laboratory for Transportation Research, says "The energy used for each unit of ethanol produced has been reduced by about half [since 1980]." Now, Wang says, the delivery of 1 million British thermal units (BTUs) of ethanol uses 0.74 million BTUs of fossil fuels. (That does not include the solar energy the sun shining used in growing corn.) By contrast, he finds that the delivery of 1 million BTUs of gasoline requires 1.23 million BTU of fossil fuels.

It takes .74 million BTU to produce 1 million BTU of ethanol
and
it takes 1.23 million BTU of fossil to produce 1 million BU of gasoline

What they don't say is that the majority of the BTU to produce ethanol is not liquid fuel, but rather natural gas which is used to make fertilizer and heat at the ethanol plants. In terms of liquid fuel BTU's there is better than a 6 to 1 return. Since our infrastructure is primarily in liquid fuels this is important.

For instance, you can buy a car that runs on compressed natural gas and drive it all around Denver. But you could not drive that car to Kansas City (about 600 miles), because there were no refueling stations in range of Denver or KC. Well, they are presently building one a little over 200 miles from Denver now, so I would imagine by summer you could finally make a road trip. But this illustrates the problem with infrastructure and new technologies.

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RE: ethanol - 1/6/2013 11:56 PM   
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RE: ethanol - 1/7/2013 12:47 AM   
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Status: offline 		Combatpigg I am not a socialist. You don't know a thing about me. I have never managed 1000 acres of land but I have spent 7 years in the Army. The only reason I mentioned the UN is because if anyone would want us making ethanol it would be them so we don't burn the planet up. By the way I don't believe in that either. So I find the irony in their statement. I also don't get my news from USA today it was just the first article I pulled up. There are hundreds of them. Where ever you get your news google that. I am sure they have their own supporting article as well. Your statement about fuel prices is correct but off as well. If we spend more money making ethanol than just getting oil that obviously drives up fuel cost. The cost of ethanol that we pay is also misleading because corn is subsidized by the government (us). It just stacks on to our 16 trillion dollar debt.

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