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40-50 size engine with separate oil supply? - 1/5/2013 11:30 PM   
theaveng


 

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Status: offline 		I'm tired of cleaning oil off my plane after the engine spits it out the exhaust. An engine that kept the oil separate from the fuel would be great.


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RE: 40-50 size engine with separate oil supply? - 1/5/2013 11:38 PM   
huck1199



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RE: 40-50 size engine with separate oil supply? - 1/5/2013 11:54 PM   
theaveng


 

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Status: offline 		Okay but how about glowfuel, so I don't need the separate ignition complication?

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RE: 40-50 size engine with separate oil supply? - 1/6/2013 12:09 AM   
downunder



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ORIGINAL: theaveng
An engine that kept the oil separate from the fuel would be great.

That's simply not possible because of the way our engines work. The only way to keep as much oil as possible off the model is to use a long exhaust extension that exits close to the rear of the model but is large enough not to cause too much back pressure. Full length tuned pipes do this very well but are expensive.

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RE: 40-50 size engine with separate oil supply? - 1/6/2013 12:13 AM   
SrTelemaster150



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quote:

ORIGINAL: theaveng

Okay but how about glowfuel, so I don't need the separate ignition complication?



What complication?

No more glow drivers, just switch on the ignition & start her up. More power, better fuel economy & much more user friendly.

Sure beats glow ignition.

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RE: 40-50 size engine with separate oil supply? - 1/6/2013 12:41 AM   
earlwb


 

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Status: online 		Well one could convert some of the weed trimmer four stroke engines over to RC airplane usage. But they use a oil sump and you can't fly them inverted very long.  The Stihl 4 Mix trimmer engines is a better 4 stroke to convert as it does not have a oil sump, but you have to use the special Stihl brand fuel for it though, as it has the special oil mixed with it. But it burns really clean though.  The Saito 4 stroke RC plane engines as well as some other 4 stroke RC plane engines use low oil to fuel ratios too and don't leave much of a residue if any on the plane either.

When you use the 20cc and up in size 2 stroke RC plane engines, they use 32:1 to 40:1 (maybe even 50:1 in some cases)  oil to fuel ratios and they leave very little to none for oil residue on the airplane.



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RE: 40-50 size engine with separate oil supply? - 1/6/2013 12:52 AM   
TFF


 

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Status: offline 		About the only engine that is a true model engine is the Kavan twin. conversion of some of the 4 stroke weedeater conversions are oiled crankcase but they cant fly unlimited inverted because there is no oil pump/pressure oiling. the beauty of oil in the fuel is you get to avoid the complication of oil systems. Real airplanes have limited inverted ability unless they have a dry sump or special valves in the oil pickup to get oil to the engine and they can have limits upside down.

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RE: 40-50 size engine with separate oil supply? - 1/6/2013 1:02 AM   
SrTelemaster150



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ORIGINAL: earlwb

Well one could convert some of the weed trimmer four stroke engines over to RC airplane usage. But they use a oil sump and you can't fly them inverted very long.  The Stihl 4 Mix trimmer engines is a better 4 stroke to convert as it does not have a oil sump, but you have to use the special Stihl brand fuel for it though, as it has the special oil mixed with it. But it burns really clean though.  The Saito 4 stroke RC plane engines as well as some other 4 stroke RC plane engines use low oil to fuel ratios too and don't leave much of a residue if any on the plane either.

When you use the 20cc and up in size 2 stroke RC plane engines, they use 32:1 to 40:1 (maybe even 50:1 in some cases)  oil to fuel ratios and they leave very little to none for oil residue on the airplane.




I have a Stihl FS90 (4-stroke) Trimmer. I use 87 octane pump gas & although I use Stihl 50:1 oil, I have used off brand oil in a pinch.

Merely converting a Saito to CDI will allow lower oil percentages. I have used 8% lube in mine.

Careful routing of the exaust will minimize the oil mess. Formula 409 followed by Windex makes short work of the oil anyway.

< Message edited by SrTelemaster150 -- 1/6/2013 2:07 PM >

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RE: 40-50 size engine with separate oil supply? - 1/6/2013 10:13 AM   
NikolayTT


 

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Status: offline 		Gasoline smel will be the punishment ... Better use long light aluminium pipe instead of resonance pipe. Then the expense is only the header (15 USD) and ... the 'advantage' also is the huge noise ... if someone does not want to listen to engine, better use electric .. but with this practically open exhaust you get 100% output power... and use fuel pump (at least 15 USD) ... and no more oil on the plain except the spill from the carburator which is very little. Also you can add to fhe fuel some parfume so when flies it smells that arround, no jokes, it works and it is loud and clear and dominates the field ...
Cheers Nick

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RE: 40-50 size engine with separate oil supply? - 1/6/2013 11:44 AM   
ThumbSkull



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Status: offline 		If you don't like oil, switch to electric.
Great power systems available now for not that much money up to 50cc size.

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RE: 40-50 size engine with separate oil supply? - 1/7/2013 2:18 AM  1 votes
blw



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Status: offline 		Noise is good if you can get away with it.

Gas smells good to me. I knew a woman who loved to pump her own gas just so she could hold the pump up to smell it.

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RE: 40-50 size engine with separate oil supply? - 1/7/2013 2:35 AM   
earlwb


 

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Status: online 		I must have gotten more used to the gasoline smells lately. it used to bother me a lot more in the past though. When I was young and we still had leaded gasolines I really didn't notice the smells or odors. But then the cars are a lot more smelly at the time too. So we all got used to it. Then as they reduced the emissions and changed the gasolines the smells and odors went away. So I got used to no gas odors. Then it started bothering me a lot when I needed to get the gas can filled for the lawnmower and stuff. But lately with me flying gasoline engine powered RC planes, I seemed to have become more tolerant again and it isn't bothering me as much anymore. 

But I think something in the gasoline tends to impart a slight sweet like smell to the gasoline, maybe its the ethanol. But the propane and butane they dissolve in the gasoline tends to be annoying still. Unless it is the chemical they add to gasoline to give it a odor as a warning or something.



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RE: 40-50 size engine with separate oil supply? - 1/7/2013 2:53 AM   
Warbird40


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: theaveng

I'm tired of cleaning oil off my plane after the engine spits it out.



That is part of the fun....if you don't like cleaning your plane after a fun day of flying then you have 3 options:

Switch to electric
Switch to gas
Switch hobbies

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RE: 40-50 size engine with separate oil supply? - 1/7/2013 3:17 AM  1 votes
blw



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Status: offline 		I used to know a guy whose wife would wipe his plane down between flights.

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RE: 40-50 size engine with separate oil supply? - 1/7/2013 4:14 AM   
1QwkSport2.5r



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quote:

ORIGINAL: blw

I used to know a guy whose wife would wipe his plane down between flights.

I would like to know where he got her from... My wife could use a lesson or two...

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RE: 40-50 size engine with separate oil supply? - 1/7/2013 4:32 AM   
Sport_Pilot



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quote:

ORIGINAL: downunder

quote:

ORIGINAL: theaveng
An engine that kept the oil separate from the fuel would be great.

That's simply not possible because of the way our engines work. The only way to keep as much oil as possible off the model is to use a long exhaust extension that exits close to the rear of the model but is large enough not to cause too much back pressure. Full length tuned pipes do this very well but are expensive.


Oil injection would reduce the amout of oil used greatly.  By applying the oil only where it is needed the oil going out the exhaust would be very small.


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RE: 40-50 size engine with separate oil supply? - 1/7/2013 4:36 AM   
Sport_Pilot



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quote:

switch on the ignition & start her up.

It's the ignition module that is the problem.  For small models they take up much too much room.  Besides with glow you don't even have to flip a switch.  They start fine for me.

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RE: 40-50 size engine with separate oil supply? - 1/7/2013 4:43 AM   
Warbird40


 

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quote:

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quote:

switch on the ignition & start her up.

It's the ignition module that is the problem.  For small models they take up much too much room.  Besides with glow you don't even have to flip a switch.  They start fine for me.



+1

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RE: 40-50 size engine with separate oil supply? - 1/8/2013 4:14 AM   
SrTelemaster150



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quote:

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quote:

switch on the ignition & start her up.

It's the ignition module that is the problem.  For small models they take up much too much room.  Besides with glow you don't even have to flip a switch.  They start fine for me.


After you fumble around to get your glow driver out of your pocket & clip it on?

Yes I agree that the ignition module size can be a problem on anything smaller than .60 size, but except for my 1 knock-about corroplast plane, they're are IMAA legal so there is plenty of room for ignition modles & a small battery pack/switch. I use the same packs/switches for RX as well as ignition so 1 charger W/a single setting & charge jack handles all of my charging needs.

If it comes down to running CDI or on board glow, then it's a no brainer. CDI has too many advantages over OBG & there isn't much difference in price these days.

I would venture to say that NONE of you guys that doubt the advantages of a modern, good quality CDI system over glow ignition (in medium sized up planes) have ever learned to set up a C&H CDI & use it for any significant period of time.

Except on small .40 sized or smaller planes, glow ignition sucks & on board glow is an even bigger PITA compared to CDI.

< Message edited by SrTelemaster150 -- 1/8/2013 4:42 AM >

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RE: 40-50 size engine with separate oil supply? - 1/8/2013 4:37 AM   
SrTelemaster150



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Status: online 		As far as cleaning the oil from the plane.

Even W/the reduced oil from CDI/methanol, I still have enough mess so that I have to do a clean up @ the end of the day.

That's when I take the opportinity to do a thorough airframe inspection. No better time that when you are wiping the entire surface down to check for damage, loose control surface hinging, fasteners, etc.

If you are not thoroughly inspecting your airframe once per outing, you soon won't have to worry about oil accumulation a your plane will most likely end up in a plastic bag eventually.

Soak her down & wipe W/Formula 409 to cut the oil followed by a light mist of windex & a good terry cloth polish job to finish her off.

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RE: 40-50 size engine with separate oil supply? - 1/8/2013 5:41 AM   
Sport_Pilot



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quote:

If it comes down to running CDI or on board glow, then it's a no brainer. CDI has too many advantages over OBG & there isn't much difference in price these days. I would venture to say that NONE of you guys that doubt the advantages of a modern, good quality CDI system over glow ignition (in medium sized up planes) have ever learned to set up a C&H CDI & use it for any significant period of time.


What does it matter?  It just won't fit on the plane sizes I desire to fly.  And if it did it would not have the power, unless you use metanol with ignition and then you are back to the high oil percentages.  Efficiency is not a concern when you hardly burn a gallon a year.

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RE: 40-50 size engine with separate oil supply? - 1/8/2013 11:58 AM   
1QwkSport2.5r



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot

quote:

If it comes down to running CDI or on board glow, then it's a no brainer. CDI has too many advantages over OBG & there isn't much difference in price these days. I would venture to say that NONE of you guys that doubt the advantages of a modern, good quality CDI system over glow ignition (in medium sized up planes) have ever learned to set up a C&H CDI & use it for any significant period of time.


What does it matter?  It just won't fit on the plane sizes I desire to fly.  And if it did it would not have the power, unless you use metanol with ignition and then you are back to the high oil percentages.  Efficiency is not a concern when you hardly burn a gallon a year.


Even if running an electronic ignition, you will still need to run high amounts of oil in a 'glow' engine simply because of the bushed or non-bushed connecting rods. Doesnt matter if you're running methanol glow fuel or gasoline. Though using gasoline you can get away with a little less oil, but still..

For those, like me, that like simple light weight engine packages, Glow is the answer. I don't mind the mess. Any sort of wet-sump oiling system will not allow inverted maneuvers for very long at all.. If you fly straight and level, no problem. Of course, thats not even close to realistic unless you like boring flights.

Fact is, for those that don't like the mess and cleanup, don't run glow. Its that simple. Gasoline or electric is the alternatives, and the teeny tiny gas engines haven't proven themselves 100% yet. They're still pretty new so there hasn't been a lot of long-term information put out there yet, at least that I've seen.

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RE: 40-50 size engine with separate oil supply? - 1/8/2013 6:05 PM   
SrTelemaster150



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quote:

ORIGINAL: 1QwkSport2.5r


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot

quote:

If it comes down to running CDI or on board glow, then it's a no brainer. CDI has too many advantages over OBG & there isn't much difference in price these days. I would venture to say that NONE of you guys that doubt the advantages of a modern, good quality CDI system over glow ignition (in medium sized up planes) have ever learned to set up a C&H CDI & use it for any significant period of time.


What does it matter? It just won't fit on the plane sizes I desire to fly. And if it did it would not have the power, unless you use metanol with ignition and then you are back to the high oil percentages. Efficiency is not a concern when you hardly burn a gallon a year.



Even if running an electronic ignition, you will still need to run high amounts of oil in a 'glow' engine simply because of the bushed or non-bushed connecting rods. Doesnt matter if you're running methanol glow fuel or gasoline. Though using gasoline you can get away with a little less oil, but still..

For those, like me, that like simple light weight engine packages, Glow is the answer. I don't mind the mess. Any sort of wet-sump oiling system will not allow inverted maneuvers for very long at all.. If you fly straight and level, no problem. Of course, thats not even close to realistic unless you like boring flights.

Fact is, for those that don't like the mess and cleanup, don't run glow. Its that simple. Gasoline or electric is the alternatives, and the teeny tiny gas engines haven't proven themselves 100% yet. They're still pretty new so there hasn't been a lot of long-term information put out there yet, at least that I've seen.


1st of all, I specifically mentioned that under .60 size aircraft can present a problem as far as room for the CDI, but if there is room for OBG, there's most likely room for CDI. Some .40 sized airframes are big enough, some aren't, so please quit trying to make that debate point.

The added weight of the module/4.8V 1000 Ma battery pack will not be any more or even as much as the added weight of OBG W/the neccessary high Ma (3000 Ma) glow driver battery. This is true regardless of airframe size.

Oil can be reduced to around 8% for CDI, far less than what is needed for glow since the oil content does not affect ignition timing or operating temperatures like it does W/glow ignition. 60% less oil content (by fuel volume) required with 20% less fuel consumption = 32% as much oil residue as W/glow ignition. A reduction of 2/3.

As far as the bushed engine oil requirements go? I agree 100%, so how is Saito recommending such low oil percentages in their FG engines that us the same conrod/crankpin interface as the glow engines? This very factor is why I see engine longevity reductions for the Saito FG engines compared to the same FA counterpart Saito engines burning glow fuel.

On a larger displacement engines/airframes, the 20% reduction in required fuel load for a given flight time will more than offset the weight of the module/battery pack.

Unless you have substantial experiemce running well designed CDI like the C&H Syncrospark systems (that have been in use for over 15 years) quit trying to portray it as something complcated/unrelable as it just isn't true.

You have no credability to make such judgement W/O CDI experience.

I, on the other hand, went through the OBG phase. Other than some increased reliability @ reduced idle speeds & the elimination of an external glow driver, they are little improvement over external glow sources. They weigh as much as a C&H syncrospark system. They also require very high Ma capacity batteries that further complcate field charging. That is not the case W/CDI as the same type of battery packs can be used for RX/CDI. I simply alternate charging the batteries when flying W/the same quick charger. CDI is simpler than OBG in that it needs no interface W/the RX. All that ois required is a switch/chager harness just like the RX.

Now, for the ludicrous claim that the on/off switches needed for CDI are not relaible? That claim is absurd as the the same switches are used for the RX so any reliability issue concerning switch failure cutting off ignition are exponentially more dire if the same happens to your RX.

Glow ignition is great for small airframes under let's say 72" WS. Anything that big or larger can easily carry a C&H CDI on board.

I agree wholeheartedly that trying to utilize a seperate oiling system for any engine small enough for the hobby sized model aircraft is way beyond any realm of feasability.



< Message edited by SrTelemaster150 -- 1/8/2013 7:58 PM >

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RE: 40-50 size engine with separate oil supply? - 1/8/2013 8:12 PM   
1QwkSport2.5r



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I said nothing about on-board glow. Furthermore, I am curious about how adding an ignition system magically reduces the necessity for high oil content?

You know what... Nevermind. Don't answer that. I don't want to further contribute to this thread getting so far off topic. My apologies.

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RE: 40-50 size engine with separate oil supply? - 1/8/2013 8:44 PM   
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quote:

1st of all, I specifically mentioned that under .60 size aircraft can present a problem as far as room for the CDI, but if there is room for OBG, there's most likely room for CDI. Some .40 sized airframes are big enough, some aren't, so please quit trying to make that debate point.


I never use OBG and haven't seen one in about 10 years.  So please don't make OBG a debate point.  I doubt I would be happy with the power of gas, unless I use glow fuel with ignition, and then you have to lug about the CDI as well.

quote:

I agree wholeheartedly that trying to utilize a seperate oiling system for any engine small enough for the hobby sized model aircraft is way beyond any realm of feasability.


I don't recall this being discussed, but I don't see why the size matters much.  A simple gear type oil pump can be as small as you want and if turned by the engine will increase the oil rate with the engine.  You could route the oil externaly through tubing or drill oil ports in the casing.  Oil systems can be very simple.


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