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Composite Airframe Versus Wood Airframe - 1/7/2013 12:18 PM  1 votes
sensei



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What airframe is better overall and why???

Bob

< Message edited by sensei -- 1/7/2013 9:11 PM >


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RE: Composite Airframe Versus Wood Airframe - 1/7/2013 2:53 PM   
jester_s1


 

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Better for what? Both are the best in one area or another. Composite is lighter but much more expensive and hard (sometimes impossible) to repair. Wood is heavier and a little less pretty but cheaper and easier to repair.

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RE: Composite Airframe Versus Wood Airframe - 1/7/2013 4:28 PM   
Fly RC II


 

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I would do composite if I had deep pockets. Looking inside one of those airframes I cannot understand how or where to start attaching "stuff". This takes some experienced builders that know their adhesives. I would almost like to 'drill and rivet' inside there.

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RE: Composite Airframe Versus Wood Airframe - 1/7/2013 6:23 PM  1 votes
Stickbuilder



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quote:

ORIGINAL: sensei

What airframe is better and why???

Bob


As to what you posted in a different forum, I'd have thought you had that all figured out, what with calling a composite an ARF and all. Your exact post is below.

He may now tell you about how he built a Heathkit radio and receiver, big deal allot of us did that back in the day. Thank god those days are gone. Hey there Kit Builder, did you build this composite fuse? If you ask me, you might be getting a little LAZY because that fuse looks like it was ARF built for you...

Bob

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< Message edited by Stickbuilder -- 1/7/2013 6:44 PM >


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RE: Composite Airframe Versus Wood Airframe - 1/7/2013 7:01 PM   
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Better??????????????????? I have one left and it's waiting for repairs, a very old pattern plane. It's a bigger pain in the butt for me to repair and over the years it got a lot of stress cracks. What is better? It's just different. I still have an old Byron Sukhoi kit that has the glass fuse that I have never built. I have only built a couple with a glass fuse and don't really care for them. The reason is my lack of experience with them. The planes come out looking good though.

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RE: Composite Airframe Versus Wood Airframe - 1/7/2013 7:16 PM   
sensei



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder

quote:

ORIGINAL: sensei

What airframe is better and why???

Bob


As to what you posted in a different forum, I'd have thought you had that all figured out, what with calling a composite an ARF and all. Your exact post is below.

He may now tell you about how he built a Heathkit radio and receiver, big deal allot of us did that back in the day. Thank god those days are gone. Hey there Kit Builder, did you build this composite fuse? If you ask me, you might be getting a little LAZY because that fuse looks like it was ARF built for you...

Bob

Bill, Waco Brother #1


I am just curious what other guys opinions are, but I see now that you might need a hug... LOL

Bob

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RE: Composite Airframe Versus Wood Airframe - 1/7/2013 7:24 PM   
sensei



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Actually this topic has come up on other forums with much interest and I thought it would be good to bring it up on RCU, this subject sure beats arguing over the right to own 10,000.00 airplanes, doesn't it.

Bob

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RE: Composite Airframe Versus Wood Airframe - 1/7/2013 7:35 PM   
sensei



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gray Beard

Better??????????????????? I have one left and it's waiting for repairs, a very old pattern plane. It's a bigger pain in the butt for me to repair and over the years it got a lot of stress cracks. What is better? It's just different. I still have an old Byron Sukhoi kit that has the glass fuse that I have never built. I have only built a couple with a glass fuse and don't really care for them. The reason is my lack of experience with them. The planes come out looking good though.

I agree with you G/B, although I have made a very successful living in the advanced composite aerospace industry, I would much rather build a wooden/composition R/C model airplane over a composite airplane any day of the month for a whole lot of reasons.

Bob

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RE: Composite Airframe Versus Wood Airframe - 1/7/2013 8:03 PM   
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There weren't a lot of kits offering the composite fuse for everyday flying so I never got to see them very often. Last one I built was the AT-6 for Madera Racing. I don't know how I would feel about them if I would have had more experience with them.
Anything negative I can say about them is limited. There was a really good looking P-38 ARF that was produced in Canada a few years back, about 10 or 12 years. They brought them down to our IMMA event, {Castle} and there must have been 10 guys flying them. All looked good. The next year there were only about 5 of them show up. Each and every one of them was so stress cracked they looked like hell. Very brittle glass? After that I only recall seeing one.
I forget who made the AT-6 kit for the Madera racing class but there were a lot of them. Every one of them were a bit on the heavy side.
My own pattern plane is stress cracked but it was built and flown in pattern in 1989 and it isn't too bad. Time has taken it's toll on the glue and formers, most have broken out and I can't get into it to replace them. As a Sunday flier it's OK though.
That's why I ask, better in what way? When new they are a lot easier to construct but I don't know about better? They are just different. I like them, I just don't see them often. They are very easy to construct as scale if all the lines and rivets are put in the mold. I may take another look at the Sukhoi kit and give it some thought but the kit may be worth more to a collector, sort of as a novelty of the past?
Hard question to answer. I have seen a lot of them now in glider classes made of carbon fiber but that isn't run of the mill.

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RE: Composite Airframe Versus Wood Airframe - 1/7/2013 9:18 PM  1 votes
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sensei


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder

quote:

ORIGINAL: sensei

What airframe is better and why???

Bob


As to what you posted in a different forum, I'd have thought you had that all figured out, what with calling a composite an ARF and all. Your exact post is below.

He may now tell you about how he built a Heathkit radio and receiver, big deal allot of us did that back in the day. Thank god those days are gone. Hey there Kit Builder, did you build this composite fuse? If you ask me, you might be getting a little LAZY because that fuse looks like it was ARF built for you...

Bob

Bill, Waco Brother #1


I am just curious what other guys opinions are, but I see now that you might need a hug... LOL

Bob


Actually, I think you are guilty of trolling (and not doing very well at it).

Bill, Waco Brother #1

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RE: Composite Airframe Versus Wood Airframe - 1/7/2013 9:29 PM   
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This same discussion is ongoing on another site and an answer by someone named Aussiesteve, (I wish I could take credit), follows.

I saw the "discussion" that led to this - so here is my $0.02

There are many variables as to what makes each better.

Radio used.
If it is a JR / Spektrum 2.4 radio, Definitely the Balsa is better because it will need a lot less Satellite Rx's to work for an entire flight (that ends with a successful landing). however you could glue the satellites together to make th airframe.

If it is a Futaba Radio, One must consider that there are only two aerials used so they must be "visible" at all times. Luckily this is not difficult with this technology.

If it is a PCM / FM styl radio used, it doesn't make much difference because the aerial will be external.

Oil used

If Mineral oil is used, composite is definitley better as it will be much easier to clean the slimy stuff off the plane afterwards.

If the common synthetics are used, balsa is acceptable because at 50:1 there will be less mess to clean.

If a 100:1 oil is used, it won't matter much as the engine probably won't last long anyway.


Needle settings
If you use factory settings, Composite is definitley better as it will handle hard landings (usually from a deadstick) better.
If you let the local "Guru" (who is always tweaking the needles on his own enignes) tune it for you or otherwise take his advice, It won't matter much as your plane will probably shake apart in the air anyway.

Gas used
IF the gas contains ethanol, it will likely dissolve the entire plane (apparently). So Balsa would be more hardy as long as good covering is used.
If you use an alternative to pump gas because you prefer the smell of the alternative, chances are a Balsa will be better because it will have a much more Gay color scheme to suit your personal preferences (unless it is a pink Krill or a custom paint job on a Comp ARF).

Control method
If it is a control line model - we really don't care.

Engine used
If it is a DA 60, 85 or 120. Everybody knows they are really bad shakers so a composite will lprobably last a little longer but you won't see the cracks appear until the plane explodes in mid-air. A balsa will fal apart much more gently. If it is a 3W, then it will be way too heavy to fly anyway so go for the cheapest (most likely a balsa).

Airframe brand
Everybody knows that "no name" stuff from hobbyking is by far the best value. They rarely sel lcomposites so Balsa MUST be the choice for that.

Servos
Hitec servos - see the comments on the DA engines above. If cheap chinese servos are used, it wont matter as they wil probably explode in mid air and destroyt he plane anyway - so go for whatever is cheapest (maybe a hobbyking balsa unit).

Battery packs
Lipos wil probably explode into a fireball and destroy everyting within a 100 mile radius. A123's would have been good except they went broke so you only have the chinese variants now. This wil probably destroy your airframe forever.



Now if you have a REAL MANS HANGER - you wil lhave multiple airframes, fitted with top quality radio equipment (such as Airtronics and Savox), top quality engines such as BME good quality battery packs and electronics and some of those airframes wil be composite, some wil be balsa, all will fly well as they are built and setup properly and you won't really give a stuff about anyone elses planes or what they are built of.


Did I done good to explain it all ?


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RE: Composite Airframe Versus Wood Airframe - 1/7/2013 9:46 PM   
sensei



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quote:

ORIGINAL: daytonarc

This same discussion is ongoing on another site and an answer by someone named Aussiesteve, (I wish I could take credit), follows.

I saw the ''discussion'' that led to this - so here is my $0.02

There are many variables as to what makes each better.

Radio used.
If it is a JR / Spektrum 2.4 radio, Definitely the Balsa is better because it will need a lot less Satellite Rx's to work for an entire flight (that ends with a successful landing). however you could glue the satellites together to make th airframe.

If it is a Futaba Radio, One must consider that there are only two aerials used so they must be ''visible'' at all times. Luckily this is not difficult with this technology.

If it is a PCM / FM styl radio used, it doesn't make much difference because the aerial will be external.

Oil used

If Mineral oil is used, composite is definitley better as it will be much easier to clean the slimy stuff off the plane afterwards.

If the common synthetics are used, balsa is acceptable because at 50:1 there will be less mess to clean.

If a 100:1 oil is used, it won't matter much as the engine probably won't last long anyway.


Needle settings
If you use factory settings, Composite is definitley better as it will handle hard landings (usually from a deadstick) better.
If you let the local ''Guru'' (who is always tweaking the needles on his own enignes) tune it for you or otherwise take his advice, It won't matter much as your plane will probably shake apart in the air anyway.

Gas used
IF the gas contains ethanol, it will likely dissolve the entire plane (apparently). So Balsa would be more hardy as long as good covering is used.
If you use an alternative to pump gas because you prefer the smell of the alternative, chances are a Balsa will be better because it will have a much more Gay color scheme to suit your personal preferences (unless it is a pink Krill or a custom paint job on a Comp ARF).

Control method
If it is a control line model - we really don't care.

Engine used
If it is a DA 60, 85 or 120. Everybody knows they are really bad shakers so a composite will lprobably last a little longer but you won't see the cracks appear until the plane explodes in mid-air. A balsa will fal apart much more gently. If it is a 3W, then it will be way too heavy to fly anyway so go for the cheapest (most likely a balsa).

Airframe brand
Everybody knows that ''no name'' stuff from hobbyking is by far the best value. They rarely sel lcomposites so Balsa MUST be the choice for that.

Servos
Hitec servos - see the comments on the DA engines above. If cheap chinese servos are used, it wont matter as they wil probably explode in mid air and destroyt he plane anyway - so go for whatever is cheapest (maybe a hobbyking balsa unit).

Battery packs
Lipos wil probably explode into a fireball and destroy everyting within a 100 mile radius. A123's would have been good except they went broke so you only have the chinese variants now. This wil probably destroy your airframe forever.



Now if you have a REAL MANS HANGER - you wil lhave multiple airframes, fitted with top quality radio equipment (such as Airtronics and Savox), top quality engines such as BME good quality battery packs and electronics and some of those airframes wil be composite, some wil be balsa, all will fly well as they are built and setup properly and you won't really give a stuff about anyone elses planes or what they are built of.


Did I done good to explain it all ?


I must admit, this is a great answer. LOL

Bob


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RE: Composite Airframe Versus Wood Airframe - 1/7/2013 9:49 PM   
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Now that is some high quality sarcasm daytonarc!

I've pretty much learned that "what's the best" is a useless question. I suppose if the question was "what's the best plane building material" and the choices were balsa and concrete, it wouldn't be too hard to give a simple answer. But among the various options that have been developed and successfully used there are always pros and cons. And of course, "composites" covers a variety of materials and uses. A flimsy fiberglass fuselage is not the same thing as a carbon fiber racing wing. The "best" determines which characteristics you want from a material and how you plan to use the item you're building.

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RE: Composite Airframe Versus Wood Airframe - 1/8/2013 12:56 AM   
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It's better then going into the kit building forum and beating the hell out of that new builder guy. You can't keep talking about what size prop all the time. Better is a relitive term and has no straight answer, shouldn't ever use that word on a thread. Football games will be starting soon and my wife will be glued to the set tonight, almost time to head out to the shop or open a book.

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RE: Composite Airframe Versus Wood Airframe - 1/8/2013 1:29 AM   
sensei



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OK you guys are right, my bad choice of words, how about pros and cons of both wood and composite airframes.

Bob

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RE: Composite Airframe Versus Wood Airframe - 1/8/2013 2:12 AM   
Gray Beard


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sensei

OK you guys are right, my bad choice of words, how about pros and cons of both wood and composite airframes.

Bob

That really cleaned up the question!

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RE: Composite Airframe Versus Wood Airframe - 1/8/2013 2:37 AM   
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Myself, I actually like a composite airplane better. IMO and I realize that this does not apply to everyone is that I can repair a composite airplane easier then I can a Carden or Aeroworks airplane. They require almost zero maintenance on the finish, built up airplanes with iron on coverings always require work. You can leave one in the car for a few hours without screwing up the covering, less hangar rash. Some will disagree but in most cases a composite airplane is not any heavier then a wood airplane. I know that Bob is going to be an exception to this but I am refering to the norm. The last Comp ARF I owned was a 40% Extra 260 that weighed 38 lbs, My aeroworks 40% 260 was a porky 41 lbs, needed constant covering attention and kept wanting to shed it's wings. I still have a Comp ARF 40% Exra 330 in the garage that was given to me because it was damaged badly. All the structural damage has been repaired and someday soon I'm going to repaint it and get it flying again. This particular one was made with 1.5mm Roacell and not the 2mm that is currently used. Projected weight should be around 36-37 lbs.


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RE: Composite Airframe Versus Wood Airframe - 1/8/2013 12:48 PM   
sensei



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As I posted earlier in this thread, I would rather build a wood/composition airframe over a composite airframe simply because I love working with wood and foam when building an airframe, and for lightness reasons I cover with plastic films on most my stuff even though it is a real PITA to maintain. Something I have learned over the years though is that if I build a 40% aerobatic lightweight airframe, I can cover it with Stits covering system, and finish it with DuPont base coat/clear coat at a weight of around 38 lbs. ready to fly with a 140cc -170cc power plant, and when covered and painted this way there is virtually no maintenance other than keeping it clean. Now there is a weight penalty, but not to awfully bad.

Now when it comes to repairing damage, I agree with you all the way speed, I would rather repair a damaged composite airframe over a wooden airframe anytime, but I also know that is not the norm for model enthusiasts not in the composite industry. If I was going out to buy a brand new ARF today, you can bet it would be a composite airframe simply from a maintenance standpoint not to mention they look good, fly good and take a great deal of very hard flying to wear out.

Bob


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RE: Composite Airframe Versus Wood Airframe - 1/8/2013 1:03 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sensei

Actually this topic has come up on other forums with much interest and I thought it would be good to bring it up on RCU, this subject sure beats arguing over the right to own 10,000.00 airplanes, doesn't it.

Bob

yes.


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RE: Composite Airframe Versus Wood Airframe - 1/8/2013 1:19 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sensei

........ although I have made a very successful living in the advanced composite aerospace industry, I would much rather build a wooden/composition R/C model airplane over a composite airplane any day of the month for a whole lot of reasons.

Bob


Go to sensei's R/C dossier, click on 'Gallery', and check out his planes. omg. Some bad-ass lookin' planes there.



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RE: Composite Airframe Versus Wood Airframe - 1/8/2013 2:01 PM   
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ORIGINAL: jester_s1

Now that is some high quality sarcasm daytonarc!



I thought so that is why I decided to share it.  I wish I could take credit.


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RE: Composite Airframe Versus Wood Airframe - 1/8/2013 4:01 PM   
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Hey Greybeard, it sounds like your marriage is a lot like mine. My wife is the sports fan, but I can't stand the noise. We do watch NASCAR together so I can get my redneck on, but that's it. She turned on the championship game last night and I couldn't find a way out of watching it with her. At least I just installed a TV in our bedroom at her request and got back scratches for about half an hour out of the deal.

In more positive news, she and I started our very first RC project together- recovering and doing some scale detailing to a H9 Cub ARF. I'll be curious how long she actually maintains interest in the project, but I like seeing her at least try.

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RE: Composite Airframe Versus Wood Airframe - 1/8/2013 7:02 PM   
Gray Beard


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jester_s1

Hey Greybeard, it sounds like your marriage is a lot like mine. My wife is the sports fan, but I can't stand the noise. We do watch NASCAR together so I can get my redneck on, but that's it. She turned on the championship game last night and I couldn't find a way out of watching it with her. At least I just installed a TV in our bedroom at her request and got back scratches for about half an hour out of the deal.

In more positive news, she and I started our very first RC project together- recovering and doing some scale detailing to a H9 Cub ARF. I'll be curious how long she actually maintains interest in the project, but I like seeing her at least try.

She and I were both score keepers for NASCAR and she got me into sand rails and they were one of our hobbies for years. Before I moved here during NASCAR and football season I was out Quail hunting or Duck hunting so I didn't have to watch sports on TV. I do time it so I come in from the shop for the last 10 laps of a race. Other then that it's just driving around in a circle for a couple of hours. When I was building cars our hobby was junk yarding on Sundays.
Yesterday I took her on a road trip to a real old fashion hardware store, she loves the smell of them and lumber yards. When I want to buy high grade wood I always take her with me. I won't spend the money on it but if she likes it cost is nothing, she will buy it. She sits in the car when I go into the hobby shop though but I never got yelled at for building models on the living room table.
Once I made up a witches brew to clean a trans and it stunk so bad you could smell it in the house. Then I took some crap. It really did stink. 40 years and only two fights so I think we have done pretty well. One fight involved Beer and Bass fishing, I don't recall what the other one was about but I know it cost me a Winchester Model 12 ot the money I had saved for it.
I'm the only guy I know that was able to turn the guest house into a hobby shop, that's what the guest room is for!!
She is a sports nut. I used to race both cars and bikes, I'm more of a doer, not a watcher. Her dad was a sports nut too but neither one bothered with base ball anymore. Bunch of big girls these days! I'm a very spoiled little boy. All she got out of yesterdays road trip was a super lunch and the aroma of a real hardware store. Last night she told me she had a really fun day!! A pretty strange little old lady.

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RE: Composite Airframe Versus Wood Airframe - 1/8/2013 7:56 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gray Beard
 I was out Quail hunting or Duck hunting so I didn't have to watch sports on TV.


GB I clipped it for short...

When I saw your mentioning the hunt, it reminded of the time I went quail hunting at a farm with a bunch of doctors who were expert hunters. Was my first time and being unsure and the slowest, I always lagged behind the docs. At one point nearly wiped out 5 docs with one shot. Managed not to pull the trigger that time but later, the dog wasn't as lucky. Damn, had to pay for the freakin' dog......LOL

TO sensie, each type has its own requirements. I do both and in my view neither is better than the other and I enjoy both. When it comes to vibe absorption, wood wins hands down


_____________________________

Regards,
MattK

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(in reply to Gray Beard)
       Post #: 24

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All Forums >> RC Airplanes >> Questions and Answers >> Composite Airframe Versus Wood Airframe
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