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RE: EIII Restoration - 1/15/2013 6:34 PM   
Flying Fox


 

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From: Kitchener, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		Getting back to you from my inquiry a few posts back - Took a while to find some of this info. I know I've seen examples throughout the RC community but trying to find a photo...
Many examples in the Windsock data files on various aircraft. Below is paraphrased from: The Aerodrome Forum - How to fix streamers on a Fokker DrI, and other related posts:
http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/models/13659-how-fix-streamers-dri.html
http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/other-wwi-aviation/2916-streamers-pennants.html


Flight Pennants
In an era of no interplane communication other than hand signals, the flight or patrol leader had to stand out in some manner from his fellow charges.

Long thin rectangular or triangular shapped Pennants were used to identify the aircraft flown by the flight leader as they provided the members of a patrol a visual clue on who to watch for orders. Aloys Heldmann of Jasta 10 said that leader's streamers were more effective for identification than any markings. One can presume the pennants could still be seen even when the aircraft was silhouetted and you couldn't make out its markings. They must have been pretty effective, as they were used widely by the British, Germans and the French aviators.

British examples are quite well documented. As far as the Germans are concerned, there are several examples of flight leaders/Jastafuhrers employing streamers as early as the fall of 1916 to help in identification. Photos clearly show these included, Boelcke, Kirmaier, von Tutschek, Löwenhardt, Udet, etc. just to name a few. Hptm Tutschek, CO of JGII, used them on his Fokker DrI 404/17, Lt Schloemer of Jasta 5 had them on his Albatros DV, and Lt Loewenhardt, CO of Jasta 10, used them on his Fokker DVII (see picture). Often they were Prussian black-white or German black-white-red, but von Schleich used Bavarian blue-white streamers on his DVII. Ernst Udet had red and white streamers on his elevators while Lothar von Richthofen had them on the lower wings and were red white and black.

The French attached them to the wing struts like Georges Guynemer. He had a black one with a white border on his Starboard wing strut. At one time he also had "Vuiex Charles" written on his streamer in white.

The use of pennants must have also attracted a fair amount of unwanted attention from the opposition, several German accounts indicate an intent to locate and shoot down British aircraft displaying pennants.

As far as attachment goes, it appears that on Udet's machines the pennants were attached to the ends of the elevators on the bottom side. They appear to have been pinned in some way or maybe clipped or sewn in. More common were attachment to lower (german) or mid (british) interplane struts. Pennants flying off the end of the rudder were also common and sometimes a plane displayed two pennants, one flying from the strut of left and right wings.

Fokker Dr.I 213/17 was flown by Ltn. Friedrich "Fritz" Paul Kempf. Ltn. Kempf flew this machine and another one similarly marked "Kempf. Kennscht mi noch?", translating to "Kempf. Remember Me?" Dr.I 213/17 also carried Kette (flight) leader's streamers on the lower interplane struts.


So if you wish for your Eindecker, depending on what colour scheme you select you might choose to include a wing leader pennant: Prussian black-white or German black-white-red, or Bavarian blue-white!

Bri

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RE: EIII Restoration - 1/15/2013 7:21 PM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		Thanks for doing this research! I had seen them on British aircraft, and even included one on my Snipe. But I hadn't noticed them before on German aircraft. I also did a very cursory google search for "WWI streamers" and one interesting item I ran across was that the British also used streamers to "communicate" with tank crews on the ground. There were specially made streamers (with the British flag colors) with a weight in one end and a pocket for a written message!

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RE: EIII Restoration - 1/15/2013 7:43 PM   
abufletcher



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Teus

Don, great restoration. Nice to follow.

But you forgot number 9 in your to do list:

9. When finished, grab a beer and enjoy the plane


I always forget the most important things!


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RE: EIII Restoration - 1/16/2013 2:33 AM   
abufletcher



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flying Fox
...depending on what colour scheme you select...


Since I'm not recovering the model, I'll be sticking with what I have for Fokker EIII 103/15 which I believe was supposed to be one of Udet's mounts. The second photo shows the K&W Models 1/5 scale ARF of the EIII which is a damn fine model (which is should be for the $1000+ price)...except that it includes two of my all time biggest PET PEEVES about EIII models, namely those silly rows of "English turning" on the cowls and a Spandau with its receiver just sitting up on top of the fuselage instead of embedded. You also see this in lots of the WWI movies, for example, The Blue Max and Richthofen and Brown. ARGH!!!

Oh, and point #10 on the things to do, I notice that there were also two drag wires when I had left off before.


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RE: EIII Restoration - 1/16/2013 3:59 AM   
Flying Fox


 

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Status: offline 		Oh man... you are really schooling us all here and turning me into an Eindecker aficionado!
Before I read your post I clicked on the photos and my eyes were immediately drawn to the out of place spandau. That is so not a good way to mount that gun. I can overlook the burnishing but not the gun.
For a $grand you'd think it would be bang on in all departments.


...speaking of movies, and just for you because you are such a stickler for scale accuracy... here is a pilot for your eindecker
LOTFLMAO!

Bri


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RE: EIII Restoration - 1/16/2013 4:16 AM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		Of course, if I were to be a real stickler then it shouldn't be an Spandau. And, yeah, your pilot suggestion would be perfect...except that I'm a bit concerned about weight behind the CG!

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RE: EIII Restoration - 1/16/2013 8:15 AM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		And then there's this which is just wrong, oh so wrong!

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RE: EIII Restoration - 1/16/2013 1:51 PM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		I had to take a step backward to go forward. I needed to remove the top rigging and the top deck to work out the connection for the firewall mounted battery and the location of the switch. Luckily all the top rigging comes off nicely along with the removable top pylon for easy transportation. Normally though I'll be able to take it to the field fully rigged.

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RE: EIII Restoration - 1/17/2013 10:43 AM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		Several hours of odds and ends work and I'm back to where I was and a bit further. The radio gear is now completely functional, the tank is nestled in place, the Rx battery is neatly seated with about 3/4 of it ahead of the (faux) firewall, and the top rigging is all back on. There's not a cubic centimeter to spare in the front few inches of this model!

Now I can continue with the bottom flying wires and then finalize the dummy engine. After that I'll be able to take it to the field and do the engine setup-up on the radio during a test run.

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RE: EIII Restoration - 1/17/2013 1:54 PM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		Flying wires are on. But I managed to break off the barrel of the Spandau doing it. Also at this point, the balance point is still at 3.5" back from the LE. I'm shooting for 2.75 inches.

Can anyone tell me the recommended CG for the Proctor Eindecker?

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RE: EIII Restoration - 1/17/2013 5:46 PM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		Some facts about the thrust line on the original EIII: 1) The engine centerline runs straight back through to the rear tip of the fuselage and 2) the top and bottom longerons from the cockpit forward are exactly parallel to the engine/fuselage centerline.

So when I prop the fuselage up to have the centerline level with the workbench, the wing shows +1.5˚ on an incidence meter. After that, I clamped the incidence meter on the elevator and using the centering on the Tx set the elevator to zero, i.e. level with the fuselage centerline.

Does this seem at all reasonable?

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RE: EIII Restoration - 1/17/2013 6:02 PM   
ARUP


 

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Status: offline 		Proctor Eindekker chord 454mm. Recommended c.g. is 128mm from LE. ~28% of chord.

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RE: EIII Restoration - 1/17/2013 6:06 PM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		28%? That would be just a bit past 3" back on my wing, so I'm not that far off. Does the airfoil shape have any bearing on the CG location? It wouldn't seem like it to me, but what do I know.

< Message edited by abufletcher -- 1/17/2013 6:33 PM >

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RE: EIII Restoration - 1/18/2013 1:24 AM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		Another factor in the aerodynamics of my model is that (in my ignorance) when I replaced the BUSA stab/elevator with a scale outline elevator, I built it with a slight flat-bottomed airfoil shape. On the Proctor model, the elevator has a symmetrical airfoil.

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RE: EIII Restoration - 1/18/2013 2:15 AM   
TFF


 

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Status: offline 		Airfoil does matter, but at around 25% almost everything conventional is flyable. The further back the CG goes, the CG need to be closer to perfect. Smaller the tail surface, the closer the CG needs to be perfect. Closer the tail is to the wing, the closer the CG needs to be perfect.

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RE: EIII Restoration - 1/18/2013 2:19 AM   
ARUP


 

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Status: offline 		These highly cambered foils are great for slow speed flying. The camber creates nose down pitching moments which varies directly to amount of camber. That might be why these old timers seem to have aft c.g. The old timers didn't understand aerodynamics well, either. Modern repros of, say, Camels with more fwd c.g. are known to be delightful to fly. I'm sured those more learned will correct me if I'm wrong and I've been wrong before!
I don't think the flat plate elevators will make much differenc in flying. Of course, you could always build another set of elevators, conduct comparison tests and report!

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RE: EIII Restoration - 1/18/2013 3:04 AM   
abufletcher



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quote:

ORIGINAL: TFF
Smaller the tail surface, the closer the CG needs to be perfect. Closer the tail is to the wing, the closer the CG needs to be perfect.


The bad news is that my model's (scale-sized) elevator is smaller than the BUSA stab/elevator. The good news is that the elevator is further away from the wing than on the BUSA version.


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RE: EIII Restoration - 1/18/2013 4:30 AM   
Flying Fox


 

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Status: offline 		Your good & bad elevator adjustments you made have probably cancelled out any potential aerodynamic change.

quote:

Don: Here's the results on a fairly sophisticated looking CG calculator. With a conservative "static margin" (10% in a 5% to 15% range) the CG would be at 2.75" back from the LE.

quote:

ARUP: Proctor Eindekker chord 454mm. Recommended c.g. is 128mm from LE. ~28% of chord.
quote:

Don: 28%? That would be just a bit past 3" back on my wing


So there you go - the Calculator yields a more conservative result than Proctoe does and you've also stated that you lengthened the fuselage thus increasing longitudinal stability. I'd play around with the CG Calculator to see what range it gives you. I've always been able to work the CG back a little from the conservative location on kits and plans, and I've found that for me they seem to fly better.

I'd go with what Proctor says and bring a few small fishing sinkers along to tape to the tailskid to work the CG back a little at at time while you are right at the field. But do play around with the CG Calculator. It has proven itself and worked wel for me. Depends on how stable you prefer it to be.

Thrust 0˚, Wing +1.5˚ and Elevator 0˚ and this is Proctor's set up incidences, right? I'd say you are good to go. You have done the due diligence and the numbers look good. If it were my plane I'd feel comfortable and go flying!

Good luck!
Bri

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RE: EIII Restoration - 1/18/2013 5:00 AM   
abufletcher



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flying Fox
Thrust 0˚, Wing +1.5˚ and Elevator 0˚ and this is Proctor's set up incidences, right? I'd say you are good to go.


These are just the way things are on my model. However, the Proctor plans also show 0 engine thrust and the elevator at zero (i.e. right on the thrust/centerline). The Proctor wing uses a semi-scale airfoil and is as a much higher AoA.

The guy who first test-flew my model just eyeballed it up on his fingertips and it seemed to fly OK.


< Message edited by abufletcher -- 1/18/2013 6:27 AM >

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RE: EIII Restoration - 1/18/2013 8:38 AM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		Still to do:

2. Beef up the inside of the dummy engine cylinders to deal with vibration
5. Finalize the balance
6. Test run the engine


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RE: EIII Restoration - 1/18/2013 3:12 PM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		Looks like even with the reinforced dummy the model still needs 200g (7oz) of lead to balance at the 3" point (27% MAC). This model is a good pound or two heavier than it really needs to be...but at least I know that it HAS flown.

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RE: EIII Restoration - 1/18/2013 3:49 PM   
TFF


 

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RE: EIII Restoration - 1/19/2013 12:25 PM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		It was way too cold and windy at the field to do the engine setup. The wind kept trying to flip the model over! Also now that I've added the balance weight to the dummy (which is epoxied and screwed to the cowl) I need a more secure manner of attaching the cowl to the firewall. At the moment there are just three small screws going into small wooden blocks. There should probably be a a metal bracket.

Anyway, there's no hurry.

< Message edited by abufletcher -- 1/19/2013 1:04 PM >

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RE: EIII Restoration - 1/20/2013 4:03 AM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		Here are a couple of videos of a fun feature of the model (a moving joystick):





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RE: EIII Restoration - 1/20/2013 4:18 AM   
TFF


 

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Status: offline 		My answer could go either way on that statement/ videos.

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