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RE: Super Unleaded Gas = Loss of Performance? - 1/19/2013 10:39 PM   
Lightspeed1551


 

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Status: offline 		It's amazing how heated people can get over gasoline < Pun intended.

I use 93 in my model engines because, with the how ofter the gas station sells and fills 87 the likely hood of getting water and chunks of crap mixed in is higher because it has had less time to settle in the tanks. Also if the 93 degrades a bit is still well over 87. I haven't noticed any more or less power or RPM's then the manual said it would have.


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RE: Super Unleaded Gas = Loss of Performance? - 1/19/2013 11:04 PM   
Truckracer


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TimBle

Its pretty much a global practice to label pumps dispensing Ethanol containing petrol

It's actually not required in many states here in the USA. Most pumps are not labeled unless required to do so. If I looked long enough, I could find the list in my files.

In a form of negative logic and especially in areas where marine fuels are sold a lot, it does seem to be common practice to label the fuels that "do not" have ethanol.

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RE: Super Unleaded Gas = Loss of Performance? - 1/19/2013 11:15 PM   
pe reivers



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Don't use the crap in European engines (3W, MVVS, ROTO, ZDZ, MOKI etc.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rmh

Even at sea level -_Los Angeles- What you can buy at the pump the cheapest crap possible - will work in our engines
stir it up with 32-1 and go fly.
Biggest problem? trying to lean it out for "more power".
One of my friends here uses Coleman in his little industrial conversions - works like a charm- tho I won't use it.
Listen to your engine - it will tell you if it is too lean or heating up.



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RE: Super Unleaded Gas = Loss of Performance? - 1/19/2013 11:32 PM   
TimBle


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Truckracer

quote:

ORIGINAL: TimBle

Its pretty much a global practice to label pumps dispensing Ethanol containing petrol

It's actually not required in many states here in the USA. Most pumps are not labeled unless required to do so. If I looked long enough, I could find the list in my files.

In a form of negative logic and especially in areas where marine fuels are sold a lot, it does seem to be common practice to label the fuels that "do not" have ethanol.


Yeah for some reason the ASTM alsways does the opposite of what the rest of the world is doing. In some European countries they also wanted to drop it but CEN was not in favour so some countries passed their own specs based on CEN EN228 but under their own standards bureau.
its is still common outside the US to label Ethanol containing petrol as such. THe ASTm will debate the matter till the cows come home but it just seems the USA (except California) is just not accepting Ethanol even though it been in use for what,......20years? (Granted not in all states)


I agree with Pe, in European engines, use the best fuel available. European fuels are all pretty high quality; low in aromatics, low in benzene, almost no sulphur. Using crappier grades of fuels just exposes to the engine to higher sulphur (since lower grades tend to be higher sulphur products too). Sulphur affects Nikasil coatings adversely, leading to shorter engine life. It also promotes hydrogen sulphide and SOx which form acids tha can corrode the liners badly in engines with liners.

Its a general rule to just use the best fuels available if you want your engine to last.



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RE: Super Unleaded Gas = Loss of Performance? - 1/20/2013 12:18 AM   
av8tor1977



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Status: offline 		I think the best overall idea is to use premium gasoline as available here in the USA. As mentioned, the gasoline will deteriorate after being mixed with oil. Premium gas certainly won't hurt your engine, and if it deteriorates a bit, you still will probably be alright in most cases if using premium. Some engines need it, some don't, but using it can't hurt and any possible power loss would indeed be small if your engine didn't need premium.

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RE: Super Unleaded Gas = Loss of Performance? - 1/20/2013 2:27 AM   
rmh



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Status: offline 		Spend what you want on gasoline - I for one, am not paranoid about all the octane ratings / blends etc., in our pump gas.
On ZDZ/ and the coated Evolution pistons and on DA engines - we all used and use regular grade gasolines and synthetic oils properly mixed and adjusted for best performance -
the pistons were/are perfect .
any problems were caused by guys who ran em lean.
there was no difference -EXCEPT on my ZDZ's running tuned systems - they gave a LOT more power some setups would exhibit slight detonation so 91 was used in them.
We did race engines in cars for many years - selecting the right gasoline is not rocket science . Whn we ran blowers - gasoline selection was very important as well as the mixture and advance
the little gasers we use im models are far far more fuel tolerant.
BUT you have to get the mix right and the prop load right etc..

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RE: Super Unleaded Gas = Loss of Performance? - 1/20/2013 3:12 AM   
cap 580


 

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I would never use any fuel blended with ethanol.  Premium A Grade 91 octane is all I use in toys.



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RE: Super Unleaded Gas = Loss of Performance? - 1/20/2013 3:17 AM   
Giant_Scale_Gasser


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MetallicaJunkie

I read this in another thread but i didnt want to hijack it , so i created a new one.... I have always heard that super unleaded gas really doesnt add any performance to our rc engines...i use it for the benefit of the doubt that it's supposed to burn cleaner and has additives that are supposed to be beneficial versus standard pump gas.....

My question, does using 91 octane vs 87 really lower performance in our engines?


Super & regular unleaded stinks, and I mean it smells to high heaven. I run 100LL aviation fuel in all my gassers and not only is it a cleaner fuel, it has no odor to speak of. Sure it's more expensive, but I'll gladly pay $5.90 a gallon for a better grade of fuel and not have my garage, my truck and my planes reek of gas.





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RE: Super Unleaded Gas = Loss of Performance? - 1/20/2013 4:32 AM  1 votes
bcchi


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cap 580

I would never use any fuel blended with ethanol.  Premium A Grade 91 octane is all I use in toys.



I was born in Long Pine NE,so was my twin brother LOL.
I have 20 gas engines and just use the cheapest gas I can find.I don't think you can buy gas in Riverton Wy with out ethanol.
BCCHI AMA 2500.

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RE: Super Unleaded Gas = Loss of Performance? - 1/20/2013 6:58 AM   
TimBle


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: av8tor1977

I think the best overall idea is to use premium gasoline as available here in the USA. As mentioned, the gasoline will deteriorate after being mixed with oil. Premium gas certainly won't hurt your engine, and if it deteriorates a bit, you still will probably be alright in most cases if using premium. Some engines need it, some don't, but using it can't hurt and any possible power loss would indeed be small if your engine didn't need premium.

AV8TOR


when you say "deteriorate" what do you actually mean? yes the fuel will age, loose butane and volatility drops, but octane rises. cold start is affected



< Message edited by TimBle -- 1/20/2013 8:22 AM >

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RE: Super Unleaded Gas = Loss of Performance? - 1/20/2013 3:35 PM   
karolh


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cap 580

I would never use any fuel blended with ethanol.  Premium A Grade 91 octane is all I use in toys.




Lucky you, as here the only fuels available, 87 and 91 are both ethanol blends .... E10.

Karol

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RE: Super Unleaded Gas = Loss of Performance? - 1/20/2013 4:01 PM  1 votes
rmh



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Status: offline 		A side note
This winter, the snows came I moved my Honda snowblower out of the storage -checked the gas in the tank- - the carb had been drained but there was still 3/4 tank of 87 oct in it from two years back!
I opened the fuel valve pulled choke - switch on - two easy pulls - it was running.
All this gnashing of teeth about fuel ratings additives - - nice reading but not really all that relevant for our little low compression engines .
Gas left to evaporate in fuel lines - can really be a mess -if certain rubber /seals were used. Ialways drain lines and carbs and the two strokers get t e tanks dumped as well.
as for the fuel loosing effective potency- it may happen - never seen it yet .
As bro Carpenter noted - it's not much an issue for us -

If'n it says gasoline on the pump - use it .

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RE: Super Unleaded Gas = Loss of Performance? - 1/20/2013 4:59 PM   
SrTelemaster150



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quote:

ORIGINAL: rmh

A side note
This winter, the snows came I moved my Honda snowblower out of the storage -checked the gas in the tank- - the carb had been drained but there was still 3/4 tank of 87 oct in it from two years back!
I opened the fuel valve pulled choke - switch on - two easy pulls - it was running.
All this gnashing of teeth about fuel ratings additives - - nice reading but not really all that relevant for our little low compression engines .
Gas left to evaporate in fuel lines - can really be a mess -if certain rubber /seals were used. Ialways drain lines and carbs and the two strokers get t e tanks dumped as well.
as for the fuel loosing effective potency- it may happen - never seen it yet .
As bro Carpenter noted - it's not much an issue for us -

If'n it says gasoline on the pump - use it .



I have found that when a gas tank is full or near full, the gas in the tank does not deteriorate as fast wile in storage.

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RE: Super Unleaded Gas = Loss of Performance? - 1/20/2013 9:28 PM  1 votes
pe reivers



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Status: offline 		I never drain my tank, even with the 10% ethanol we have now. Like Dick said, the discussion is overrated, unless there are monkey gas sellers around who try to sell waste stuff as fuel.


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RE: Super Unleaded Gas = Loss of Performance? - 1/20/2013 10:15 PM   
TimBle


 

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Status: offline 		I don't bothe either, unless I hang the plane by the tail, then I have to stop up the vent line or just drain some off or its ends up dripping out the vent.
By I leave petrol in the tank. Its better for the fuel lines to be in a constant fuel environment once in use


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RE: Super Unleaded Gas = Loss of Performance? - 1/21/2013 9:29 PM  1 votes
pe reivers



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Status: offline 		Standing the plane tails up will provide lots of oil to the front bearing and seal. Those parts normally don't get too much of the good stuff. Good practice IMHO


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RE: Super Unleaded Gas = Loss of Performance? - 1/22/2013 6:43 AM   
rstearman


 

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Can you tell us about phase out (the lost of octane) with ethanol blend fuels, and what the self life of a regular octane fuel is with 10% ethanol?

Regarding running auto gas in full scale planes, I can tell you it usually turns out to be costly mistake here in the Pacific Northwest.

Thanks

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RE: Super Unleaded Gas = Loss of Performance? - 1/23/2013 2:29 AM   
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Status: offline 		I have always used 87 octane gas and always from the same gas station.
I have always been concerned about just how old the higher octane gas at the gas station is as with todays gas prices who is actually using that stuff. Or is their any reason for concern about that anyways. You guys are a lot smarter about the RONs and MONs and divides by 2 than I am.

I also wanted to comment about Timble being rude as I don't think he was. I think we Americans feel that we invented the English language which we did not and other folks from English speaking countries just speak differently. When a guy says "rubbish" or "nonsense" he is just discussing a topic and it is not  meant to be insulting.




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RE: Super Unleaded Gas = Loss of Performance? - 1/23/2013 6:29 AM   
TimBle


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rstearman

TimBle

Can you tell us about phase out (the lost of octane) with ethanol blend fuels, and what the self life of a regular octane fuel is with 10% ethanol?

Regarding running auto gas in full scale planes, I can tell you it usually turns out to be costly mistake here in the Pacific Northwest.

Thanks



Phase out? I think you mean phase separation.
This occurs when water gets into a fuel containing ethanol at >2% v/v. Ethanol being hygroscopic prefers to be with water so it drops out of teh gasoline and takes up residence in the water maiking a toxic wine.
The octane contribution of 10% ethanol could be around 1.5 to 2.2 octane numbers depending on your base fuel (RBOB) . You need quite a lot of water to lose all this octane but the problem is not just octane loss its also bacterial growth and the fact that water being heavier than gasoline will settle into the bottom of the fuel tank and enter the collector and be transported through the fuel system where it corrodes fuel system components. A pretty nsty and expensive situation.

Shelf life of regular E10 is determined by the storage conditions and volatility loss through evaporation of butane out of the fuel. In general the octane creeps upward as the butane evaporates off but the volatility goes down. Simple rememdy, store the fuel tank close to full and limit the air space above the fuel.
If storing for longer than say 3months, and the tank is less than 2/3rds then simply top up the remaining volume with fresh fuel.
But it must be stored in a dry, temperature stable environment to prevent condensation inside the container.


Auto gas in an aviation engine in the USA would be a big problem. Brasil has a gasohol avgas but the engines there are modified to use this fue.. Point is, its safe to use a long as the engine is compatible



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RE: Super Unleaded Gas = Loss of Performance? - 1/23/2013 11:03 AM   
pe reivers



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Status: offline 		My Experience:
I mix my fuel, and then store it in PET bottles, well capped, until ready to use it.
Lately I had a case of water separation. Due to the fact that I use transparent bottles, it could be seen very well. My fill felt clunk filter does not touch the bottle bottom. Only when I tilt the bottle can I empty it to the last drop. Thats when I noticed the presence of water. Quickly cleaned, did not happen since. It may have been the last bit of my mixing canister, since then also well cleaned out.


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RE: Super Unleaded Gas = Loss of Performance? - 1/23/2013 4:24 PM   
TimBle


 

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RE: Super Unleaded Gas = Loss of Performance? - 1/23/2013 5:05 PM   
pe reivers



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Status: offline 		No, just that one occurrence. Causes may be many.


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RE: Super Unleaded Gas = Loss of Performance? - 1/23/2013 5:52 PM   
TimBle


 

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Status: offline 		indeed, often it can even be an accumulation of water over a few fills. Not all retail site tanks are bone dry although they're supposed to be.

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RE: Super Unleaded Gas = Loss of Performance? - 1/23/2013 6:06 PM   
rmh



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quote:

ORIGINAL: pe reivers

No, just that one occurrence. Causes may be many.


The ambient temp can cause this - tho it is a very minor thing.
Which is why I never leave fuel in the plane just in the capped can.
For those who never tried it - - the accumulation of water inside an alky fueled engine can be extreme- and in actual practice these engines -not run dry then saturated with a water displacing oil - easily rust the bearings.
At the flying fields -it is easy to tell which fliers don't keep water out of their engines - -you can hear the bearings as they run.

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RE: Super Unleaded Gas = Loss of Performance? - 1/23/2013 6:29 PM   
MTK



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quote:

ORIGINAL: rmh

For those who never tried it - - the accumulation of water inside an alky fueled engine can be extreme- and in actual practice these engines -not run dry then saturated with a water displacing oil - easily rust the bearings.
At the flying fields -it is easy to tell which fliers don't keep water out of their engines - -you can hear the bearings as they run.


Yet another reason to use a gas with no alcohol. Avgas for me: plenty of pop, no stench, stable over time and now, look ma, no rust....It doesn't seem to bother the carb innards either, as some have suggested. I took an DLE55 carb apart (on the shelf for 1 1/2 years after fairly hard running for  about 1 season) to check the rubber....rubber parts appeared the same as rubber in a new and unused 55 carb. And bearings are silky smooth on the shelf.

But avgas does result in a couple hundred rpm loss over premium autogas at full revs, in an OS GT33. But since I practically never fly it at full revs, it doesn't matter at all in my application.

It seems to me that some people on these threads in the engine forum are poopoo'ing avgas but have never really tried it.....


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